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@IlDiavolo
Primitive christianism was already popular among people way before it was taken as the official religion. I'm not saying the Roman Empire popularized the christianism. Constantine used christainity to control, he practically imposed the religion creating dogmas that people must follow and a hierarchy that people must respect, all of it in order to guarrantee the control system.
In early European history it got to the point where civilians weren't allowed to own (thus not read) the Bible. So religious leaders were able to create false doctrines to follow, particularly for monetary gain. And in the U.S., we know there have been con artists who used the Gospel for monetary gain. There's even an atheist actor who made the confession that he was raised an evangelist to con church goers of their money.
These aren't products of the Gospel, but products of opportunists. There's even a person recorded in the Book of Acts who fits this description.
intelligent people don't promote wars and destruction. On the contrary, the stupid leaders with inflated egos do that.
The ancient Mayans, Aztecs, Egyptians, Phoenicians, etc. were quite intelligent, and contributed to our modern technology. The Bible refers to incredible civilizations who destroyed themselves by their various practices. We don't even need religious references to reason how a thriving civilization would crumble by practicing things like human sacrifices.
Today, very intelligent people will tell you abortion is morally just. Ignoring a logical principle that if two adults agree to have intercourse, but don't agree against abortion in case of pregnancy, they're endangering a human life. In other words, the right to having sex trumps preserving human life.
You will never find any quote from any world leaders from any society/civilization, whether it be the Aztecs, Mayans, Nazi Germany, etc. that will say they are an evil civilization. A society of stupid people with inflated egos. All societies/civilizations in their own eyes were moral humanitarians.
We are already living an imposed life, don't you see it? a life imposed by the sumerians, by the way. Do you think everyone enjoys living in this system of slavery? Lol.
I agree that we're already being imposed upon. How do we know it wouldn't be worse? The tendency for any type of invasion (seafaring nations arriving in more primitive lands) resulted in more slavery.
Besides, I don't think it would be a problem for the aliens if they find people that don't want to follow through. You know full well what happen to those who don't want to follow through. Lol.
Maybe you can enlighten me?
I don't know. Isn't it what Jesus said? Jesus, aka the Christ, said "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left...", Matthew 24:36-41.
Yes, but this verse in itself doesn't explain who the wheat and the chaff were.
You can believe whatever you want, I don't care, I'm not interested in convincing you because I respect people's will. I only have to say that out there you can find endless testimonies of people that had contact with these aliens.
I know there are. Of course some will inevitably be hoaxes. A hard core skeptic will wonder why aliens would travel this far to abduct a person, or couple, use faulty hypnosis, peek through people's windows, etc.
Again, the common practice for any civilization invading another (weaker) civilization is to completely take over. Even the genius Stephen Hawking invoked a warning pertaining to extra-terrestrial contact.
I'm not saying it's the truth. I'm just pointing out that all the ancient scriptures tell more or less the same story.
There are similarities, but that's the case with many writings. There's also the differences to consider.
It doesn't make sense to suggest I embrace 2 views that oppose each other. Particularly when you don't consider either.
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@IlDiavolo
There are muslims in Asia too. Gullible people are everywhere.
I was addressing your apparent claim that the Bible was written to promote theocratic systems for the purpose of control due to the actions of Constantine and the Roman Empire.
Lol. Can you see how naive your comment is?
Lol. No.
I'm questioning the bible because not only I have the right to do it but also because I am enough intelligent to do it. This is what intelligent people do. If you didn't notice yet, in our times there are more intelligent people than in the past, so don't get surprised if christianity is in decline, not necesarily in favor of atheism but in favor of other beliefs that MAKE MUCH MORE SENSE.
I don't think I ever suggested you didn't have the right to question Christianity. I was trying to answer your question about my view of Mormonism.
And yes, Cosmic Humanists promote a westernized view of eastern religions. What we today call New Age religion. We've westernized Buddhism, aptly called McDharma Buddhism. The Cosmic Humanists used to believe that we give modern technology to the people of the east/orient/Asia, in exchange for their spiritual beliefs that we've conveniently adjusted to our western mind set. Hopefully they don't think this anymore being that many Asians have proven to more intelligence that westerners.
Have I noticed that there are more intelligent people than in the past? Have you noticed that our intelligence has created more ways to destroy ourselves? The more intelligent we get, the more destructive capability we attain.
You've just said it, this is what common people want, eternal punishment for the "disobidients". I really don't care what christians believe or not but I have to underline the contradiction in this belief because it is diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught, which is forgiveness for everyone that does bad to others. So, this contradiction lead us to think that this belief was introduced by the catholic theologians.
I'm talking about laws every society practices. Life convictions and the death penalty are not religion based. Not in the west anyway.
No doubt about it. They will sort out our problems and will impose a new way of life, and of course a new set of beliefs or phylosophy, as they did after the great deluge in Noah's times.I'm not sure if there is going to be a deluge, what I'm pretty sure though is that these aliens will show up very soon, maybe right after the nuclear war, maybe when humanity settles down in the moon, maybe after the system collapses. Nobody knows.
Impose a new way of life, even if it's against our will?
Of course. They will seperate the wheat from the chaff. I would do the same if I were an alien in charge of this project.
And who exactly would be represent the wheat? And who would be the chaff?
What do you understand about inmoral behavior? Homosexuality? Atheism? I really don't know what standards they will require from us, and I don't care. I only have to say that I have no regrets, I am ready for everything that is coming. I did my best.
I don't know what standards they would have either. But I don't believe aliens from other planets are in contact with us. They would have either taken over our planet, or let everyone know of their existence. If they were friendly, they would show us hologram photos of their home planet, cities that would make Times Square look like a village in the Greenland, their pets with 70 eyes, and 50 tentacles, etc.
The sumerian tablets, the emerald tablet, the greek myths, etc.
Do you think there may be truths to their scriptures?
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@IlDiavolo
Not if the bible was manipulated, distorted. I said it many times, Constantine took christianity as the Roman Empire's official religion because he saw its great potential to manipulate people. The rest is a known history.
How would you know what, if any of the bible was manipulated or distorted? If you base it on the actions of Constantine and the Roman Empire, the Gospel was also sent into Asia around the same time as it spread into Europe. However, Christianity's involvement in politics is for the most part absent in Asia. Not only in communist countries, but even in South Korea except a couple of small political parties. And the Philippines being the only country with a Christian (Catholic State religion). The churches in China are controlled by the government, the rest are underground churches. Christians in Asia don't have a different bible, and are for the most part passive politically, militarily, etc.
There are lot of stuff that don't make sense because they were MADE UP by theologians. Just to mention some examples: the angels with wings don't exist, the devil doesn't exist, eternal punishment in hell doesn't exist, and so on. This is all behavioral control as if we were animals.
Something not making sense doesn't mean it's wrong. Just not understood, at the moment.
To say theologians made things up because you can't make any sense of them doesn't make much sense. I understand there's many sources that make that claim, but we're talking about an ancient language and culture that is difficult for any modern person to decipher. To make any absolute claims is similar to suggesting that science can't reveal anything more, archaeology can't reveal anything more, etc.
I don't see the issue with angels having wings. As I understand it, your argument is that the bible doesn't state they have wings. So that wouldn't be an issue with the bible right?
It seems you're picking and choosing which parts of the bible match with alien theology. How do you know eternal punishment is not a part of alien control of humans? For the sake of argument, maybe they would have control of (to try and use a more contemporary term) human life force after death. And that they enforce a type of punishment in the afterlife. Our various societies practice eternal punishment. A life sentence for example is eternal. We don't it call it that because we know life is temporal. But in principle, as long as the convicted party is alive, they're to remain incarcerated indefinitely. The death penalty is eternal. And even if they found the executed party innocent later on, where's the reprieve?
Another possible comparison to consider.
The idea people have about aliens making contact with us is that they will cater to our needs and interests. They will remove war, diseases, hate, and of course religion.
If that was really their plan, wouldn't they have done it by now? In fact, long ago? The Israelites thought the Messiah would free Israel from the Roman Empire. However, Jesus came to deal with the hearts of men, not providing external freedom. Maybe these aliens in the context of biblical alignment would require the same. Hold humans accountable for immoral behavior. And holding a much higher standard than we would normally place on ourselves.
Nevertheless, if you compare the bible with other ancient scriptures then you can make a thorough idea of what this is about. The bible for example doesn't expand on the human creation, but other scriptures do it. So, it's always good to check on all of them.
Any examples?
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@IlDiavolo
But if the Bible parallels alien intervention, how can it be nonsense, assuming it would be a tool of the aliens? Wouldn't it be like saying, the aliens are responsible for the claim of nonsense?
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@IlDiavolo
I don't think Mormonism is an issue of nonsense.
If you believe aliens will visit us from planet Y, and someone tells you they will be from planet Z, I don't think you would necessarily consider it nonsense. Just that they might be in error.
I don't know what you consider nonsense in the bible, or whether or not you think Mormonism represents nonsense as well?
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@zedvictor4
I'm viewing the future with a contemporary lens, just like males will have crew cuts in a 1950s movie depicting the future in the 1980s, or males wearing bell bottoms in a 1970s movie depicting the future in the 21st century.
So if we make it to the 23rd century, their means of communication might be far too complicated to figure out, which is why we have to be satisfied with emails for right now.
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@zedvictor4
Funny how GOD didn't have this technology when he first started sending us messages..It was burning bushes and tablets of stone back in the day.Odd for an omniscient one.Not even ten neatly penned sides of A4, photocopied for Moses to distribute.
Imagine if 2,000 years from now, if we were still here, we developed a type of orb the size of a softball that can be sent to someone giving a type of orbital email when it detects the recipient is alone, and away from a computer. When the orb finds the recipient, all the recipient has to do is touch the orb with the index finger, the orb recognizes the fingerprint, and opens up a message written in the air, that only he/she can see via eyeball recognition.
Now God decides to send you a message via one of these orbs developed just for you. So now you have this strange orb following you around when you're alone. What are you going to do?
The idea is that while God spoke to Moses via a burning bush, and creating a set of commandments on a stone, He already knew about the internet which is just merely child's play to Him.
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@IlDiavolo
The question is whether or not it's a false or deceptive message.
This should be taken into consideration whether it came from an angelic being, or even an extraterrestrial.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
You may very well be the Smartest dumb cunt ive ever witnessed.
I now realize how macho-centric I am.
Thanks Deb!
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@n8nrgim
Visions, like the one I had of Jesus Christ was very real and profound. It wasn't a hallucination. But I'm sure Joseph Smith's vision was very real and profound as well, which lead to the false religion of Mormonism. Would you agree that there's a deceptive side to visions that manifest as very real?
Do you believe that Satan exists as a creation of God that presents beliefs, doctrines, etc. that are false?
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@n8nrgim
there ain't much about NDEs that seem to originate from satan. the author i just posted about, looks like a solid christian. at worst, some of these teachings might challenge fundamentalist thinking, but there's usually higher ways of understanding out there, or there's just sheer doctrines and religions of man that have fundamentalists have gotten wrong. both you and tradesecret worry too much about religion, instead of truth and spirituality.
I haven't read the book, and as I stated, I believe an NDE experience could be an act of God (Jesus Christ).
I am deeply concerned about truth. I understand that the term religion can be justly considered negative, but it's a term that can have different meanings. It can be both negative and positive. The common definition, belief in God, a god, or deity is often used as a negative. Or when there's words written by a seer, that becomes a book, it's labeled as religion in the negative. Once something becomes labeled as religion, it often becomes a negative. People become afraid of the term, and assign it to views deemed as threatening, like intelligent design. But religion is often just a way to categorize. Like with the title of this section of the forum.
Do you feel that NDE's are random, like a hallucination might be (e.g., someone seeing an oasis in the desert), or is there a purpose for them? In other words, are they a result of a higher power, or intelligence conveying a message? Or are they something that might happen accidentally, or naturally when someone has a chemical reaction in their brain causing them to see a lake when lost in a desert, dying of thirst?
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@n8nrgim
I would say I take the same view as Tradesecret, in that there's a distinct difference between an NDE, and actual death.
I do think there is a difference between a hallucination, and the experiences some have proclaimed with an NDE. I believe there's a spiritual realm that includes an element of deception, similar to people receiving spiritual visions that are distinct from hallucinations. An NDE, like a spiritual vision can either originate from Jesus, or from Satan.
I remember a thread asking about mine, and another person's spiritual or religious views I meant to answer, but got sidetracked. I forgot who asked it, but looking back at the thread, I think it was you. I describe myself as a Christian (believer), and take the view that the Bible is the inspired/accurate Word of God which is probably evident in my overall post.
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@zedvictor4
Well currently that seems to be the only answer.But doesn't resolve the something from nothing conundrum.
If matter and energy may have always existed, why not an intelligent designer?
Though if matter and energy have always existed, why would intelligent structures not have evolved of their own accord.
I'm not sure if I understand the question. Can you elaborate?
And why did they not evolve billions of years ago?...(Perhaps they did in previous universes).
Are you asking why intelligent structures have not evolved billions of years ago? I guess I would need clarification of the other question first though.
OK. So an evolved super-intelligence, created intelligent humans...But why?
God never evolved. God is the same as He ever was.
Wouldn't an evolved super-intelligence have furthered material evolution by creating technological intelligence, as we are now doing.
As I mentioned, I don't think God ever evolved. Are you asking why God didn't create skyscrapers, EV's, and the cyberworld at the very beginning of the creation of the universe (that God of course created per Genesis)?
Perhaps we are the evolved universal super-intelligence...(In this universe).
I don't think so. According to evolutionists, we (humans) would have been around about 200,000 years ago, but recorded civilization has only been around for about 6,000 years. So regardless of how long the earth has been around (whether YEC, or OEC), it's apparent us humans haven't been around nearly as much as the evolutionists claim.
Evolution in principle is a very slow process. So for humans to be stagnate for about 195,000 years, not being able to create a writing/documenting system, buildings, etc. doesn't really fit too well. That kind of rapid development suggests intelligence, distribution of personal abilities and talents are given by God. For about 195,000 years, humans would have either been extremely unintelligent, or extremely lazy/lethargic. There's not even that much of a progressive evolution since the ancient civilization days, in that we're not even completely sure how they created structures like the pyramids.
And thus all the theories about ancient aliens intervening back then.
So even if it were aliens that prodded us along since ancient Sumeria (which is not the case), it doesn't say much for us humans.
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@zedvictor4
Couldn't matter and energy have always existed?
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@zedvictor4
The spiritual realm isn't the only issue.
The real question is whether or not there's an outside intelligence that designed our brains in the first place.
So in some ways, whether or not the higher intelligence resides in a spiritual realm as opposed to a natural realm, is immaterial (no pun intended).
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@zedvictor4
I think that ghosts are still popular.
True. But I think the appeal of Bigfoot is that in similarity with E.T.s, people concoct a natural/non-supernatural explanation for them. The idea that they're a product of evolution somehow. Ghosts are stuck in that spirit realm thing. Mermaids, and various legendary monsters have too close an association with mythology for most to take seriously.
What they all have in common is they all tend to haunt (or abduct, or repel) an individual, or a small group. Instead of the Independence Day/War of the worlds alien experience, it's Mr. & Mrs. Smith losing 2 unexplained hours, revealing a traumatic experience under hypnosis. Instead of the Ghost Busters widespread experience, it's restricted to a haunted castle in Scotland.
I believe in what we generally call a spiritual realm as described in the bible. And I think the answer to these phenomenons are openly addressed for anyone willing to consider. It's a matter of the creator (God) placing limitations on these phenomenons so they can't wreak widespread havoc. They're all confined to the proverbial swine cast into the water.
Spirituality like any other theory or pseudo theory, simply relies upon a complex brain having the desire to create it.
Atheism may just be another phenomenon similar to the aforementioned. The control/restraint God puts into place also may allow most people to choose to write them all off completely.
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@ludofl3x
So are we talking about a god that only applies to the texts of Muslim and Christian here, therefore not tied to a specific religion but definitely an Abrahamic one? If so, I can quit this discussion, I'm operating under a different assumption, that this is the 'deism' argument. I don't want to waste your time. Those laws and morals are far from universal, though. THey're common between the two perhaps, but that's far from universal.
I'm not implying that the Christian and Islamic religions are universal.
I don't understand what the spelling out of a law in a text in has to do with the creator's desire to keep people from stealing. I also don't understand your question as it relates to a creator. If the creator created a law that was so important for people not to break, then relied on people to do the enforcing, that doesn't make sense to me at all. We also may be using the word 'law' in different ways (you, I think, I using in the way that there is a "law of averages" or "law of physics," I am using it in the legal sense, as in laws that can be broken).
Well, there does seem to be a common principle of reaping what one sows, karma, or what one does comes back to them. These operate outside of human law enforcement, if they're not completely written off. If someone robs a bank, and gets away with it, I would say they experience retribution in other ways, including but not limited to, after they pass on.
Perhaps we'll meet again in another thread, good to see you back.
Definitely! And thank you! I was kind of surprised when you showed up. Good to see you as well!
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@Stephen
I was simply pointing out the difficulty in comparing animal behavior with human. Although, ultimately it may not really matter. Even if an animal thinks it's right of possession is violated, it's not really an argument against the right of a creator to carry out any deserved justice.
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@Best.Korea
I was actually asking if that's what Ludo meant.
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@ludofl3x
Sure, but this doesn't have anything to do with the law against stealing. I'd react this way if there were no laws about stealing, right? Watch what happens when a predator tries to take a carcass from another predator, and animals don't have laws, religion or any concern that we can see for the creator of the universe at all. They still manage to make very clear that you can't just take what I hunted. Again, exclusive of the idea of law.
We don't really know what goes on in the mind of a predator (animal). If something is taken from you, you have an understanding that your right of personal property has been violated. It's more than just having your fishing pole taken, you want to go fishing, therefore grab it back from the fishing pole predator. Since it's a universal law spelled out in religious/spiritual texts, as well as human literature, it's kind of silly to think the/a creator wouldn't have the right to execute judgment if a perpetrator avoided human law enforcement. If he robbed a bank, people suffered as a result. Are you against the concept of retributive justice?
This is an assertion and presumes that you've examined every religion for all time, the laws of every nation on earth (including those that have multiple definitions of stealing, as well as cultures that do not acknowledge personal ownership) and every culture for all time. Narrow this down some.
You mean like communist nations?
This example is not really different than the individual who steals, but doesn't want to be stolen from.
If leaders of a communist, socialist, or fascist nation tells it's citizens they own their property, does that mean they're okay with neighboring nations coming in and helping themselves?
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@ludofl3x
How so? Ultimately this is your hypothetical, so your sandbox, your rules. I'm sincerely asking. Why would this creator of everything not just create the laws, if it cared about laws? It sounds like you'd credit it with creating the idea of laws but not the laws themselves. Why create the entire known universe and skip that part?
The law against stealing is a universal law. Every nation in the world honors this law. In spite of categorization, any religious text demanding laws being practiced among humans will include do not steal.
It's a universal principle that taking something belonging to someone else is a violation against the victim, requiring retribution. If someone takes something valuable that belongs to you, you're going to react. You don't even necessarily need an established law to understand your human right to not have something that belongs taken from you.
Right?
Fair, but it neither did it say personal either. All it said was 'creator not attached to a specific religion.' This is an added condition, that it's personal. I'm not sure what it means, but probably neither here nor there.
Well the title of the thread mentions 2 different religions. So I suppose that may have been my motivation not to restrict the/a creator to a specific religion.
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@ludofl3x
The creator's laws would have to come from the creator, human laws come from humans.
Since the creator created humans, it would stand for reason that the laws man creates (establishes) originated from the creator.
The issue is if the creator only created everything, why would it care about laws?
If the creator created everything, it would have to include laws. Why would it care (or why did the creator care to make laws)? That would be a different issue. It might be similar to asking why your local government cared enough to establish laws.
Again the only property you've defined is its ability to create physical matter. And it still doesn't provide the necessary link from "created" to "eternal dominion over."
I didn't say the creator would only have the ability to create physical matter. I didn't say anything about the creator being an impersonal deistic creator (god).
I said a creator not attached to a religion. A better way I could have put it would be, not attached to any specific religion. Still, my statement did not in any way render the creator impersonal.
The term religion is really just a means to categorize. Attaching the/a creator to a religion doesn't render the/a creator non-existent. The deistic creator/god is not assumed to have religious attachment. But for the sake of categorization, one would probably still have to start a thread on deism in this forum section called religion.
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@ludofl3x
No, because as you've laid it out, this creator only created everything. He didn't say don't rob banks. There's nothing to "judge", as there's no infraction. And there's still no inherent link between "I created this" and "Therefore it is forever subject to my demands."
Human law would simply be the creator's agents. If the creator designed the law, inspired humans to create the laws, then they would of course be the creator's laws.
We give the rights to civilians to make a citizen's arrest. They don't make the final judgment, but they can act without being the creator of the law pertaining to the given violation.
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@ludofl3x
There's nothing inherent in creating anything that bestows complete and total jurisdiction over it, so no. You've set up no rules that have been violated according to the creator, so there isn't any justice to be sought, as there is no violation at all. It's just a thing that happened. Justice only exists, as far as I can tell, in the presence of law or crime, good or bad, all of which differ all over the world and across time.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you.
If someone robbed a bank, but was never caught, the creator (the higher power) would have no right to pass judgment on that person after they pass on?
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@Stephen
And there in lies your problem.
Which would be an extremely heavy burden for me to have to carry alone. Maybe if we could distribute some of the weight? Deb could take Albania, etc.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It's just a hypothetical question.
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@Best.Korea
I was told that I reject religion because my religious parents didnt beat me enough when I was a child and because they spoiled me.
Whenever people are told what to think, there will inevitably be problems. Whether it happens in a religious home,church, or nation that prohibits religion.
As far as fear of God and hell, the same principle applies in our law system. We should only have to fear the higher power (law enforcement), and the consequence (incarceration) if we violate the law. The system works if law enforcement is just.
Law enforcement is subject to human limitations, so not all violations are attended to. For the sake of argument, let's assume a creator not attached to any religion. If someone commits a crime, but is not found out, would the creator have the right to invoke justice on that person after they pass on?
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@zedvictor4
There's just enough to keep people going.
It's the same with the less popular Bigfoot, and the lesser popular ghosts and mermaids.
I think ghosts were at the top at one point in time.
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@IlDiavolo
So, this woman either was lying or was deceived.
I suppose it's possible she was lying, but it would be an awfully strange thing to do.
As far as deceived, do you mean deceived by aliens, or deceived as in deceiving herself into thinking she was getting that message from aliens?
I'm not a ufologist, so you would know about this more than I, but to my understanding not all aliens have our best interest. And some of the abduction testimonies appear to be terrifying.
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@Best.Korea
Anyway, your comment is mostly assumptions. You assume that if leaders are atheist, that country is atheist too, when opposite is true in North Korea
Maybe you can explain this then.
In North Korea, Kim family is considered supernatural, which could be atheism if we ignore that leader is considered literal God who cannot make a mistake and must be obeyed at all cost, but North Korea isnt exactly an example of non-peaceful society.
On the one hand you seem to be saying the country is not atheist, and on the other could be atheist.
Which is it?
Of course I have to admit I don't really understand your statement. Can you clarify please?
And then is puzzling as well.
Japan also has religion, which might be closer to atheism, since their religion involves more praying to mountains and spirits of ancestors.
You seem to be implying that somehow Japan is atheist, or more atheist, but NK is more religious, apparently just because NK's leader is considered a god. But some how praying to mountains and spirits of ancestors is somehow more atheistic. Do realize the Shinto religion has a creator in their teaching?
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@Best.Korea
Do you think all atheists are accounted for statistically?Does it matter?
I personally think so. It's why I asked.
Using an example of a deluded person saying nonsense, is again, cherry picking.
I don't think you understand the concept of a Cultural Christian.
Are you familiar with Richard Dawkins? He confesses to be a Cultural Christian (a Cultural Anglican is how he put it). Assuming you know who he is, do you think he's deluded?
Maybe you dont know what cherry picking means?
I know enough to know you've been cherry picking my questions.
Probably the most important one involves your opening statement.
Christians have for centuries promoted all kinds of lies about atheists.
So again, let's see some quotes to back your claim. How many centuries ago? Gives some quotes, decades ago, years ago, months ago, days ago......just give us something.
I also asked you about Christians in Korea (and China). Are they violent? To go a step further, how many Christians end up in Korean prisons for violent crimes versus atheists? How about in China? How about in Singapore? How about in India?
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@Best.Korea
Since you didnt say what number of them happen in prison, its not a counter argument.
I gave you a quote from a secular source stating there are many conversions within prison. Common sense should tell you that they couldn't all be converts from atheists. But you want numbers which is difficult to find on the internet, but fortunately we don't have to relegate the issue to prisons. The issue is about cultural Christians converting to Christ (Christianity).
IRVING, Texas (BP)–Evangelist Billy Graham broke attendance records for Texas Stadium the last two nights of the Oct. 17-20 Metroplex Mission.
Mission organizers said that 11,097 spiritual decisions were recorded that will be passed along to the 1,000-plus area churches that helped sponsor the mission and agreed to follow up on converts.
Billy Graham Evangelistic Association spokesperson Beth Ellis said 4.4 percent of the nearly 255,000 people attending mission meetings made decisions for Christ. “That’s a very good response for a mission that was held in the Bible belt where you have a lot of church attendees,” Ellis said.
Mission organizers said that 11,097 spiritual decisions were recorded that will be passed along to the 1,000-plus area churches that helped sponsor the mission and agreed to follow up on converts.
Billy Graham Evangelistic Association spokesperson Beth Ellis said 4.4 percent of the nearly 255,000 people attending mission meetings made decisions for Christ. “That’s a very good response for a mission that was held in the Bible belt where you have a lot of church attendees,” Ellis said.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Texas, but it's as professing Christianity as you can get. If you think that 11,097 converts were all atheists, then you must be from another country. So unless you actually think that, you'd have to explain how or why a professed Christian would make a decision for Christ (become a follower of Christ....convert to Christianity). Notice the underlined portion....if you will.
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@Best.Korea
They are statistics about violence in relation to people who say that they are Christians.
No. Those stats are not taken for the purpose of identifying who is violent. Someone who goes to prison for tax fraud doesn't go because they are violent. Someone who commits forgery doesn't go to prison because they are violent. Do you have stats specifically for violent acts?
I already explained to you two times that thats cherry picking, and irrelevant to the statistic about people who say that they are Christians.Since you cannot know who really follows the teachings of Christ, your counter argument is nothing.
I gave you a link from a secular source (which I know you won't read) that clearly states that Christianity is used in prison for rehabilitation. The prisoners take part in bible studies, prayer meetings, services, etc., for the purpose of rehabilitation. The prison system would not allow this if it produced violent inmates. So for the sake of argument, since you're so focused on your misinterpreted statistics, lets run with your argument about what confession of faith inmates make. Since most inmates state they are Christian, strictly by that confession, professing Christians are more likely to end up in prison than a professing atheist. Or if you still insist, are more violent. However, Christians who involve themselves in Christian activity, whether for rehabilitation within prison, or active in church ministry on the outside, are less likely to commit a crime, or become violent than an atheist. We can identify a follower of Christ in this case as one involved in a church ministry to any capacity. And a Christian within prison who is involved in prison ministry programs is more likely to rehabilitate than an atheist in prison. Keeping in mind, atheists are not involved in prison rehabilitation programs. They get involved in government convocations, they have atheist chaplains in the military, but they don't seem to get involved with prison rehab that I'm aware of.
Makes sense?
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@FLRW
6 Countries with the Highest IQ Scores in the World
This I wouldn't doubt. Out of curiosity, was there a particular reason for posting these stats?
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@FLRW
Top 10 Countries with the Highest Percentage of Atheists - WIN-Gallup 2017:
Probably accurate. I think North Korea would fall in between there though. Wikipedia actually claims it's an official atheist State. Not sure about that though.
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@Best.Korea
This is cherry picking statistics.Something I already covered, so I dont see why you felt the need to repeat the fallacy, after it was explained to you once.
Because your statistics have nothing to do with violence. They are statistics similar to checking the box to identify one's race or ethnicity.
A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
So their religion is Christian, but they dont believe in God?Since we cannot open people's heads to check if they believe in God, what we are left with is again those who claim to be Christians and those who claim to be atheists.
Correct, just like the Norwegian terrorist stated.
Getting back to the prison issue:
“Jailhouse religion”—the sudden desperate piety of an inmate who’s up against it and hopes that God will somehow bail him out.I’m reminded of an inmate who spent 90 percent of his time in disciplinary confinement until he got “saved.” The change in his life was so dramatic that the institution was never the same. He never got into another fight after that. He started writing people while he was in prison in order to make restitution.
You can't just ignore the fact that Christian conversions take place within prison. And since the number of professed atheists are so small, they all can't be atheists. So unless you can address that, your point is meaningless.
A secular source by the way:
Christianity is a tool used in the prison system as a means to rehabilitate the incarcerated. This has been going on for decades. It's used because it's effective.
Those are bunch of assumptions..There are no atheists who dont claim to be atheists.And even if there were, you wouldnt know it, thus unknown number, thus irrelevant to any statistic.
Do you think all atheists are accounted for statistically? Because if not, your stats are meaningless.
An assumption. And a cherry pick of a case.
An assumption, yes. A cherry pick, no ,since I'm not making an absolute claim. I'm using him as an example of a cultural Christian who states belief in God is unnecessary.
Religious nations did give us Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and basically exterminated 100 million native Americans, and have been the cause of almost every war in this and former century.
All nations were religious. What did Sweden give us? And why are you relating Mao with religious nations?
I also asked you about what are the Christians in Korea like (and China). Did you miss that?
But atheist nations are almost non-existent.
Well there's no nations that identify themselves as an official atheist nation. So I'm not sure what your point is.
Many people in China have religion, which, despite not being Christianity, is still a religion that cannot be considered atheism.
Well, there's also Buddhism and Islam. Both, alongside Christians, experienced persecution from atheist leaders.
Japan also has religion, which might be closer to atheism, since their religion involves more praying to mountains and spirits of ancestors.In North Korea, Kim family is considered supernatural, which could be atheism if we ignore that leader is considered literal God who cannot make a mistake and must be obeyed at all cost,
You seem more intent on presenting Japan as atheist, but hesitant with North Korea. The Kim family are atheists who control their citizens to the extent of allowing them to consider him a literal god. Do you think the Kim family really believe they are gods?
but North Korea isnt exactly an example of non-peaceful society.In fact, North Korea wasnt at war for over 70 years.
So we should overlook their inhumanity, and consider them peaceful, or not non-peaceful because they haven't been at war for over 70 years?
And I suppose they never make threats of war to other nations?
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@IlDiavolo
Out of curiosity, what is your thoughts on this. Do you think she really had an encounter with aliens?
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@IlDiavolo
I didn't notice you were religious. Are you?
I'm a Christian, yes. But I do respect the opinions of others.
Well, if you see my comment #105, I acknowledge the existence of this "spiritual realm", which to me will be the revelation of the biggest quest humanity has always had: what consciousness really is. By personal experience, I believe in the consciousness (or spirit if you will) surviving death.
My apologies. I have to confess, I didn't read all your posts until now. I've read all of yours, and some from others. Bad habit I know. Thanks for transporting your comment into this post.
However, this "spiritual realm" has nothing to do with extraterrestrial beings because they belong to this material world as well as we do. Why am I so sure? Well, it's quite difficult to draw conclusions when there is no strong evidence, but I rely on the prophesies of Parravicini whom I mentioned in my comment #105, he said that in the near future these ETs will show up and people will know they were the one deemed as "angels and Yahve". He also said that people will be able to contact their dead relatives and that the atheist will get to know of his error. I trust on him because several of his prophesies were fulfilled.
I used to believe ETs existed in the strictest conventional sense. They came down here in their spacecraft from some other planet. Abducted some people to do experiments on them like we do with animals in a lab. Didn't think much about the unlikely mechanics involved.
When I became a believer (Christian), I began to see both natural and supernatural (or out of the ordinary) tie in with the Bible.
I perceive there being 3 major phases in world history. The first is the common idea of there being multiple gods, or a specific god that represents a nation or tribe. Basically a global acceptance of the supernatural. The deception being that there actually is only one God who created everything, not multiple gods. Why would my God (God of the Bible) be the exception? Well, that's another story.
The second phase is the enlightened era where god, demi-gods were removed from mainstream societies. Where god becomes impersonal (deism), or a part of, or nature itself, or we are all one with god and nature, or no god at all. The deception being there's no ultimate creator God (of the Bible).
The third phase is a global acceptance of the supernatural, or something akin to it, like extraterrestrial superior abilities that defy our limited understanding, but believed to originate from one specific source instead of there being differing beliefs involving multiple deities. The deception being the truth originates from the one Creator God who has existed from the beginning.
In all three phases, believers in the true God have been present.
So I think we have similar views, except you believe all answers concerning the physical world, and the supernatural will ultimately be answered by aliens. I believe all answers will ultimately be answered by God.
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@Best.Korea
Christians have for centuries promoted all kinds of lies about atheists.From being perverts to having no morality.But truth turned out to be opposite.
How many centuries are you talking about? Can you provide a starting point with quotes?
Christian families tend to raise violent people.While some have said that there are different types of Christians, and some are much better than others,What obviously counts is average, and not cherry picking only good Christians and ignoring the bad.Cherry picking is a statistical fallacy where you only pick good Christians to prove that Christians are good.Conclusion of course, doesnt follow.It would be like only picking smart atheists to prove that atheists are smart, or only picking good atheists to prove that atheists are good.Statistically, what matters is average Christian vs average atheist, because for Christianity to be beneficial, it must be more beneficial as a whole compared against atheism.If average Christian is more violent than average atheist, it follows that Christians are more violent and Christianity produces more violence.Atheists make 0.1% of prison population, despite making 3% of the general population in USA.Christians make up 65% of prison population, despite being 60% of population in USA.So atheists ratio of population to prison is 30:1.Christian ratio is 1:1.
Well atheism is not a religion, so there are probably more atheists that don't make any public profession, including those who are asked for statistical purposes (like in prison). Most of the atheists that do make a public profession we might call atheist activists. Either an atheist who is part of an organization that takes religion related issues to court, those active on the internet promoting atheism, or even those on discussion forums like this one. So with all the countless acts of violence committed by those we know nothing about, how could you know how many were Christian or atheist?
The problem with the claim about prison having more Christians than atheists is that there are a lot of conversions to Christianity within prison itself. Who are these converts? They couldn't all be atheists since they're such a small number. Obviously most of them are part of the Christian statistic you were referring to. They were cultural Christians, not active lifestyle Christians. In other words, those who grew up going to church, and only identify themselves as Christians from their upbringing, but not converted to Christ which means a change in lifestyle.
I'm guessing you're from Korea. I'm sure you're aware there are quite a few Christians in Korea and China. How are the Christians there? Are they violent?
Now, some have thrown unsupported counter-argument that atheists in prison lie about being Christians.
I think this is what I was talking about. It's not that they lie, but they state their religion by their upbringing. They grew up in a Methodist Church, and when asked, they say their religion is Christian, or they're a Methodist, Baptist, etc. They may not even believe in God.
We only know if someone is an atheist or Christian if they tell us.
Exactly! And thus the problem. Many atheists, probably the majority, don't make any public claim to being atheist. Many probably don't even think about it. They don't believe in God, and never talk about it to anyone.
To claim that we shouldnt trust people about that would just translate into not being able to say who is a Christian and who is atheist.This would lead us to absurd position, but statistically, it still works against Christians.Thats because if we replace "christian" with "people who say they are christian",we still reach the conclusion that people who say that they are Christians, are more violent.Statistics are not something which is easy to escape, as we can clearly see.So Christians must concede that people who say that they are Christians are more violent than people who say that they are atheists.
Do you remember Anders Behring Breivik? He was the terrorist who targeted Muslims in his killing spree. After the incident occurred, a number of people claimed this as another terrorist attack from a Christian. However, he made things fairly clear in his manifesto. He identified both with Christianity and Norse pagan religion because of their cultural association with Norway. He also stated that one need not believe in God or Norse deities to be a part of these religions. In other words, one could be an atheist. So he couldn't really be a Christian in the purest sense because paganism and atheism are both non-Christian. He's most likely an atheist.
And this goes back to the problem of identifying who the converts are in prison. It's part of some of the false advertising for atheism a number of activists promote. Another example of false advertising is claiming that atheist nations are more peaceful than religious nations. The problem is that the nations they use for examples, like New Zealand and Sweden are not atheist nations. NZ and Sweden are secular nations just like the U.S. The term atheist nations seems to have been replaced by the term irreligious nations. But they never seem to include North Korea on their list. Of course some like to pull the ghost religion card for some ideology that involves some people worshiping their leader as a god. Although there is no such thing as an atheist nation in the official sense, NK and China would be the closest.
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@IlDiavolo
So for you the abduction cases and ufo sights are all copy from the bible? Well, people are free to believe whatever they want, but in the case of extraterrestial life, there is a growing percentage of people that are taking it for granted becasue the evidence is more and more consistent. Even the NASA gave in to it and accepted to research this phenomenon.
As far as ufo sightings, I think a number of them are legit, and are in fact something other than natural phenomena. I would say those could be spiritual entities (or demons) copying or creating a deception. But these sightings by apparent reliable sources have been going on for quite some time. I think the internet may give a false impression to some that it's a new phenomena. And I don't dismiss the possibility that some of them might be angelic beings from God.
The abductions may not necessarily be a copy of anything biblical that I can think of. I think any hesitancy to research them was due to the unlikely nature of beings coming here from planets many distances away, and abducting people in their homes, while driving, fishing, etc. And of course there's some speculation they travel here from other dimensions instead of other planets. But that would beg the question, why couldn't that other dimension be a spiritual realm as opposed to another natural realm like ours?
Of course, there will always be those who still think ufos are ballons, drones or camera defects. I guess the only way to convince them is that these aliens show up and shake hands with them.
These ufo phenomenon comparisons to religion are not relegated to Christianity. I think back in 2008 an Australian woman who claims to have spoken to aliens through channeling, which is a practice in new age religion, and spiritism. The woman claimed (and still claims) that aliens told her a mother ship would hover over the sky in plain view over the State of Alabama. She was thoroughly convinced this would happen, and put her reputation on the line with nothing to gain from it. Of course it didn't happen. After awhile she claimed it was deceptive aliens she communicated with, who for some reason, lied to her. So if you don't dismiss this incident with the others you consider legit, this means that there's a deceptive element somewhere in the midst of these alien phenomena. And this is common in many religions (a good and bad force), and the Bible is quite clear on the subject.
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@Best.Korea
There is however the question as to whether or not God/a god would choose us? Which is a position I personally take. Should that happen, the problem of which God/god for a human to choose is eliminated.
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@IlDiavolo
Well, if what you're trying to say is that there are some conmen going around making up stories about aliens, this is totally true, but this fact doesn’t make the alien theory untrue.I always suggest to be careful and contrast the alien stories with one another. What I can say categorically, though, is that the biblical angels were actual aliens and the prophets were people that made contact and receive the messages from these "angels".
There are definitely similarities between angelic beings in the Bible, and aliens, including spacecraft. Sometimes people equate the creatures mentioned in the book of Ezekiel with alien spacecraft. Ezekiel describes a creature with wheels. The spirit of the creature enters the wheels, which indicates the wheels are in a sense a living part of the creatures. The alien spacecraft that are alleged to be hidden in bases are said to be controlled mentally or telepathically by the aliens, or maybe even biological entities themselves. So it may boil down to which one is copying the other, if that's the case.
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@Stephen
Sure. Every major bookstore in the U.S. has it's religion section.
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@IlDiavolo
The idea of aliens is big business. If aliens actually made themselves known to the world, a number of paranormal media outlets would lose 75% of their content.
A big interest part of the alien scam is to keep it's followers believing we're on the verge of government disclosure, or actual arrival/contact. It keeps people tuning in to related radio programs, podcasts, and history/science related television networks that found that biology and Napoleon Bonaparte are not enough.
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@TheUnderdog
For a Christian to commit suicide would be like an Olympic athlete bowing out of the games. Except a lot worse.
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@janesix
I'm a little confused with your post.
I can relate to what I think you're talking about in regards to "changes".
We're full of upgrades that might be necessy, but at the same time an inconvenience, or irritant.
An example might be places where there was free access for everyone, but because of public misuse, we now have to go through security. It's great that the problem of public abuse might be curtailed, but at the same time it might be a hassle.
The internet is another example. Right off the bat there seemed to be more unrestricted access to forums and social media websites. But again, because of user abuse, we find we have to register, or have to provide an email or cell phone# just to register. On the one it's an improvement. On the other, a hassle.
The evolution of the body, if there is such a thing may be similar. Afflictions may occur which are bad, but may also be a blessing in disguise if it stops us from abusing our bodies with unhealthy substances.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the physiology of humans as a whole, or simply changes of the body through aging.
Do you consider aging of the body as evolution of the body?
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@TheMelioist
on the bible, and I assure you, they are quite knowledgeable on the subject.
I love them.
I've learned from both.
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@TheMelioist
thank you for your post.
Thanks for responding.
"are you basing your belief on the age of the earth on scripture, or scientific consensus?"If I can answer a question with question, does the Bible say what the age of the Earth is?
I believe it actually does. It doesn't tell us specifically how long according to Greenwich Time, but I don't see the reference to time being that much different than someone today telling another on the first day of their vacation they flew to Hawaii, and the 14th day flew back home. We know that they were gone 2 weeks because their definition of time is universal. So it might depend on what the definition of day God is using in reference to time.
If the Bible doesn't say the age of the Earth, it would make it kind of hard to make my belief on the subject based on the Bible. Some Christians say it indirectly does, and we can talk about that if you want to. I personal see no reason why we can't follow the scientific evidence were it leads on this one. humor me as you will. The Bible doesn't say the best way to treat lung cancer. So, where does the Christian get there belief on how to treat lung cancer? well science of course. So similarly, if the Bible is mute on the subject of the Earth's age, therefore we can, and should, follow the scientific evidence were it leads.
Jesus would at times use parables not necessarily meant to be understood at first hearing. They were meant to draw people in who were interested in finding out their actual meaning. Those who were not interested would either walk away, or take it upon themselves to understand and consequently take the parables out of context. With Jesus' parables, one either understood upon hearing, or needed to receive it's meaning directly from it's source. There was no philosophical, literary, or of course scientific method to figure them out on our own.
So the question becomes, is the time reference of creation in Genesis any different? Is there a challenge to scientists (or anyone) to seek the answer to the age of the earth directly from the creator? George Washington Carver was a young earth creationist. He is alleged to have asked God to reveal the mysteries of the universe to him. His alleged response from God was that this would be a bit too much for him at this time, but guided him to discovering significant and valuable usage of the peanut. If this is true, which I believe is, what would happen if all scientists did what Carver did?
The bible is also quite clear that man at his most intellectual amounts to very little in light of God's wisdom. This suggests to me that the secular science community as we know it today is probably wrought with error, whether we can observe it or not.
As far as curing cancer, the bible of coursr doesn't mention the disease, but instructs believers to lay hands on the sick. This allows all of us, doctors or otherwise, to take part in someone being cured....healed. Today we are far more advanced in medical science, but there's no question that there are doctors who are believers that pray for guidance. If you agree with that, do you feel man finds cures on our own, or is God instrumental somehow in medical advancement?
can to be more accurate, I get my beliefs from the scientific evidence not the scientific consensus. In science, we don't settle debates based on who has the longer list of scientists, but rather what the evidence says.
And there are some scientists who are young earth creationists. Jerry Bergman is one of a number of fully qualified scientists who is a YEC. It's safe to say that YEC scientists are a minority, but would that necessitate them being in error in regards to the age of the earth?
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@TheMelioist
You may have made this clear somewhere in this forum, and if so my apologies. But I have to ask, are you basing your belief on the age of the earth on scripture, or scientific consensus?
If the bible claimed the earth was shaped in a perfect cube, I would admit we would have a problem. But when it comes to claiming an age before recorded history, and "if" God says the earth is 10,000 years old, could we trust that? Or would science render the claim empirically false?
If the bible claimed the earth was shaped in a perfect cube, I would admit we would have a problem. But when it comes to claiming an age before recorded history, and "if" God says the earth is 10,000 years old, could we trust that? Or would science render the claim empirically false?
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@n8nrgmi
It's actually understandable that you would think 🤔 this.
He's kind of the Doctor Smith and Eddie Haskell of DART (do you get MeTV?). These are TV characters who provide comic relief to otherwise very serious situations.
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