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@K_Michael
Why do you think that giant miracles like Elijah calling down fire and the parting of the Red Sea don't happen anymore?
76% of population in Israel use cellphones. They would miss events like what you mentioned because they are too engrossed in their phones. So it is not like it doesn’t happen anymore. No one pays any attention to them anymore. They can always read about it in the news if it is important.
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Polytheist-Witch: Atheists are only polar opposites of non-fundamentalist Christians. Atheists have the most in common with fundamentalist Christians. They argue the the Bible is if it's true. They argue the Bible as if it's fact and scientific. And they are as nasty and hate filled as fundamentalist Christians.
To claim Atheists have the most in common with fundamentalist Christians is a contradiction.
Atheist definition: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Fundamentalist Christian: The fundamental Christian believes in the experience of the "new birth" which occurs when faith is placed in Christ as Savior and Lord.
The two groups Sidewalker described are: “On one side of this polarity is an excessively dogmatic secular modernism that doesn’t appear to be true to science, and on the other side of the coin, it is opposed by a dogmatic religious fundamentalism that doesn’t appear to be true to Jesus.”
Where one group is not true to science and the other not true to Jesus.
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Polytheist-Witch: The posts in this thread in particular are why atheists are so hated. They literally have no concept of what theists think, how they feel and after years of posting in this forum and talking to theists they still don't.
The OP is simply asking “Arguments regarding God.” Both for and against from whoever.
Benjamin: What are the 2 best arguments for and against God? This is a question of subjective opinion, and I am curious to hear your thoughts whoever you are.
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@Oldschoolpancakedummy
Bones: What argument convinced you of Gods existence?
I can't say any one particular argument convinced or even keeps me convinced. Cumulatively though I would say all the arguments put together are enough to satisfy someone looking for that kind of thing. I think God can be sought both rationally with the mind and experientially with the heart.What attracted me was the historicity of the Catholic Church. Whether one agrees with the Church or not, it's incredibly old. That type of antiquity is lacking in so many expressions of Christianity today.
Judaism is older than Catholicism. If you were looking for an antiquated religion there are so many out there.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
You refuse to discus your immoral views.RegardsDL
You need to turn to porn to discover immoral views. Immoral views are banned on religious forums.
Now you are wasting my time.RegardsDL
You need to turn to porn to discover immoral views. Immoral views are banned on religious forums.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
To believe in miracles or the supernatural, is not the brightest way to think.RegardsDL
The Jews were proven right. Without the supernatural miracles the Jews could not overthrow the Romans. The Romans went on to crucify a Jesus, destroy the Holy Temple and slaughter the Jews.
History proves even the dull thinking Jews were right. They needed a saviour with supernatural powers who would rid them of the Romans. Jesus was powerless against the Romans.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
My interest is in the garbage Christian morals.We do not know if a Jesus ever existed, but we do know that Christian morals are garbage.RegardsDL
If you know what is garbage then proving what is in it should be easy.
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@Dr.Franklin
Sorry but Finkelstein is just wrong. Why Would Egyptians depict a failure committed by their own Pharaoh? Remember that artisan painters in Egypt were under strict jurisdiction of the central monarchy, so why would they risk their lives by painting an Egyptian defeat?Also, Jericho has been inhabited since the early Bronze Age, so another lie from Mr. Finkelstein. He's disproving his own religion how sad
“Among scholars, the case against the Exodus began crystallizing about 13 years ago. That’s when Finklestein, director of Tel Aviv University’s archeology institute, published the first English-language book detailing the results of intensive archeological surveys of what is believed to be the first Israelite settlements in the hilly regions of the West Bank.
The surveys, conducted during the 1970s and 1980s while Israel possessed what are now Palestinian territories, documented a lack of evidence for Joshua’s conquests in the 13th century BC and the indistinguishable nature of pottery, architecture, literary conventions and other cultural details between the Canaanites and the new settlers.
If there was no conquest, no evidence of a massive new settlement of an ethnically distinct people, scholars argue, then the case for a literal reading of Exodus all but collapses. The surveys’ final results were published three years ago.
The settlement research marked the turning point in archeological consensus on the issue, Dever said. It added to previous research that showed that Egypt’s voluminous ancient records contained not one mention of Israelites in the country, although one 1210 BC inscription did mention them in Canaan.
Kadesh Barnea in the east Sinai desert, where the Bible says the fleeing Israelites sojourned, was excavated twice in the 1950s and 1960s and produced no sign of settlement until three centuries after the Exodus was supposed to have occurred. The famous city of Jericho has been excavated several times and was found to have been abandoned during the 13th and 14th centuries BC.
Moreover, specialists in the Hebrew Bible say that the Exodus story is riddled with internal contradictions stemming from the fact that it was spliced together from two or three texts written at different times. One passage in Exodus, for instance, says that the bodies of the pharaoh’s charioteers were found on the shore, while the next verse says they sank to the bottom of the sea.
And some of the story’s features are mythic motifs found in other Near Eastern legends, said Ron Hendel, a professor of Hebrew Bible at UC Berkeley. Stories of babies found in baskets in the water by gods or royalty are common, he said, and half of the 10 plagues fall into a “formulaic genre of catastrophe” found in other Near Eastern texts.
Carol Meyers, a professor specializing in biblical studies and archeology at Duke University, said the ancients never intended their texts to be read literally. “People who try to find scientific explanations for the splitting of the Red Sea are missing the boat in understanding how ancient literature often mixed mythic ideas with historical recollections,” she said. “That wasn’t considered lying or deceit; it was a way to get ideas across.”
Virtually no scholar, for instance, accepts the biblical figure of 600,000 men fleeing Egypt, which would have meant there were a few million people, including women and children. The ancient desert at the time could not support so many nomads, scholars say, and the powerful Egyptian state kept tight security over the area, guarded by fortresses along the way.
Even Orthodox Jewish scholar Lawrence Schiffman said “you’d have to be a bit crazy” to accept that figure. He believes that the account in Joshua of a swift military campaign is less accurate than the Judges account of a gradual takeover of Canaan.”
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@Elliott
Arguments against God, how about this one.God wants us to believe in him so he should have provided strong evidence for his existence. We have no strong evidence for his existence, therefore God doesn’t exist
The Bible teaches us God put all the knowledge in a tree and ordered Adam not to seek it.
But Eve disobeyed and ate the forbidden fruit from that tree and even gave some to Adam.
That is why we have a mixed impression of God. Some from the tree of knowledge and some from what God wanted us to believe apart from the tree.
Science follows the tree of knowledge. But we totally ignore the fact God was there in the garden with Adam and Eve which should have provided strong evidence for his existence.
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@Elliott
Janesix: Evolution is not a fact. It is a theory, and a bad one.
That is because science doesn’t deal with absolute proven facts or truths, such a concept would be unscientific. Science is driven by enquiry and if you have a proven fact then you have the answer and having the answer would mean you need look no further, this would limit enquiry. That is why science only has provision for hypotheses and theories rather than proven facts, science has to keep an open mind that even the most accepted theory may be wrong.
Creation/Genesis teaches Eve was created from Adams rib. Evolution totally missed that one. Therefore Evolution is a theory and a bad one.
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@Elliott
How do you define religion, I would say it is basically a belief system that usually relates to a god or gods and that includes a cultural and social system designed to standardize the behaviours, practices and morals of its believers, and sometimes unfortunately those who don’t believe.So I don’t see how you can have a fake one.
Most religions try to get people to believe in things that are not possible to create a sense of awe of the divine so that humans can transcend their ordinary lives.
But it doesn’t work on people who want to remain close to their ancestors uncovered by Darwin.
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@Elliott
I don’t really understand why God requires worship, as this would mean it fulfils some need and if God has needs then he is less than perfect, as a perfect God would have no needs.
God has needs and he was not perfect.
He looked at the naked bodies of Adam and Eve in the Garden and was very upset when they covered up.
Genesis 3:7
"Then the eyes of both [Adam and Eve] were opened and they realised that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." (NIV)
Genesis 3:9-11
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (KJV).
But the urge never went away.
Luke 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.
Now if women went to worship God, he would not need to go to them. Like he did in the two cases above.
Now you know why God wants to be worshipped.
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@Elliott
I was raised as a Christian and educated in a Church of England school. As to why I stopped believing was simply down to a loss of evidence for God’s existence. This was probably down to my mother who was slightly reticent on discussing sexual matters. I remember at the age of about five asking her how women became pregnant and she said God puts the baby inside them. Then at the age of eleven I had now become familiar with the biological process and on discovering how babies are conceived my one bit of evidence for God had vanished and he went the way of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
So as your knowledge of sexuality and biological process grew your evidence for God had vanished and he went the way of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
Your mother was a virgin birth believer. Your father could have helped you, but you never had one or went to him for answers. He could have confirmed or denied your mothers claims just like Joseph did in the Bible.
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@Elliott
The Tyndale English translation of the Bible exposed the limitations of English when compared to Hebrew and Greek. So the British are more than guilty of a failure in translation. It has exacerbated into a failure of communication.
It has been interesting talking with you but we seem to be communicating at cross purposes, so I think I am done.
“Done” is often associated with how you prefer your steak. So saying “I am done” might be another reference to “I’m British and it may be a British idiom.”
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@Stephen
Jesus always dodge the question and never produced a sign.
Yes. Quite the master of the non answer, wasn't he. Just like many Christians are.
It didn’t work for Jesus, he was finally convicted and crucified. Christians are exposed and beaten too.
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@zedvictor4
For sure.Hence mythology.
Many believe the pyramids were built by aliens. The Bible tells us Moses was in Egypt. Moses could have made Alien contact there.
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@FLRW
Men who ejaculate often may have a lower risk of prostate cancer than their peers who don't do it as frequently, a U.S. study suggests.
Religious people have more sex which make masturbation unnecessary. Muslim countries have lowest prostate cancer mortality because with 4 wives sexual activity is higher.
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@Stephen
Jesus tempter was the Devil we are told.Mathew4:1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.Right off the bat this story falls apart if it is to be taken literally?Because immediately the “devil” begins his test by saying;4:3“If you are the Son of God.” [?]command that these stones be made bread”.When that didn’t go down as the devil thought it might, he had another go:4:6 “If thou be the Son of God” [?] cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee”….When this didn’t appear to bare fruit, the devil changed tactics by trying a bribe.Mathew4: 8 Again,the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me”.IF!? It appears then that the devil didn't even know who Jesus was.It should be noticed too that, just like there was no witness to the conversation between Pilate and Jesus, or Nicodemus and Jesus, here too there wasn’t a single witness to this meeting in the desert, so how do the gospel writers know what was said? I do hope the Christians here will explain that for us?Anyway,Jesus, you may not be surprised, refused the bribe and passed the test! And why wouldn’t he have? He was god and the son of god also wasn’t he, and everybody knew it didn’t they………. accept the devil it seems.So how come that old devil Satan didn’t even recognise god when he seen him!?After all, didn’t he exist with all the other heavenly beings even before mankind? Doesn’t Luke's gospel speak of Satan falling from that heavenly abode? Luke 10:18Didn't god once tell Satan to his face that he would be on his belly eating dirt for the rest of his days? Genesis3:14We know too that the devil had wagered face to face with god that ended with in the deaths of all of Jobs 10 children. Job1:6-7. (Christians have never explained how it came pass that Satan came to be “walking here and there”, roaming around the earth.” after being sentenced to crawl and eat dirt for ever?)How is it that the “demon” calling himself legion recognised god/son of god and Satan didn’t? “He shouted at the top of his voice,“What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Mark5:7It appears that this ambiguous story of Satan testing god is beyond absurd, it is outright stupidity at its worst that only a child or the cretinous adult would believe.
Jesus was asked to show a sign that he was God many times in the Bible. Jesus always dodge the question and never produced a sign.
Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
John 6:30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus. So they asked him to show them a miraculous sign from heaven.
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@rosends
You are right resurrection is a Christian concept.
By rejecting Jesus who preached resurrection the Jews clung on to Judaism.
actually, I said that it is explicit in Judaism (check post 97). If you read through this thread you will see that my position is that the claim isn't evidenced by the texts cited in the original post, not that the concept isn't in Judaism.
Among Orthodox Jews, belief in the resurrection is still generally understood as a literal prophecy that will come to fruition when the messiah comes.
So until then resurrection is a Christian concept.
Whereas in Judaism it is still an unfulfilled prophecy.
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@Stephen
"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, - that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son, for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...It's all very - Oedipus, isn't it ?Oedipus c 450 BC, was a mythical Greek king of Thebes. A tragic hero in Greek mythology, Oedipus is believed to have fulfilled a prophecy (accidentally) that he would end up killing his father and marrying his mother, thereby bringing disaster to his city and family.
Luke 1 has a better explanation.
Luke 2:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.
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@Reece101
Why Don’t We See Religious People Debating in the Science and Nature Forum?
Debating science requires higher education in the sciences and objectivity which religious people are often ill equipped for.
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@Benjamin
What are the 2 best arguments for and against God? This is a question of subjective opinion, and I am curious to hear your thoughts whoever you are.
For God.
1. All religions say God is great.
Against God.
2. But disagree on which God.
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@secularmerlin
Undeniably many people suffer and it appears to be a given that some people suffer in ways they do not necessarilly deserve. Just as clearly not all suffering is the direct result of human actions.That in mind and most especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?
Genesis tells us God made suffering a part of human life because Adam and Eve chose to eat from the “tree of knowledge” and learn of the limitations of their creation rather than live in ignorance.
We have the knowledge to deal with suffering eg. Pain killers. The rest wil be dealt with in time.
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@aaaa
Why does God want to be worshipped?Is it ever talked about in the Bible?
There are many verses in the Bible about worshipping God.
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@Swagnarok
What attracted you to Catholicism?
Celibate priests and virgin birth.
So, you were intellectually convinced? Or do you like the aesthetic of Catholic churches and church services?
Celibate priests and virgin birth are commitments and beliefs that show how Catholics remain true to their beliefs.
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@rosends
Though I don't remind anyone of anything at every chance (for example, I have posted on this thread many times and have not reminded anyone of anything regarding my background in most situations so your blanket claim is wrong) when it is a relevant point I mention it.As to your other claim that my status does not make me "correct," I never claimed it did. However it does mean I have the requisite knowledge to represent the codified teachings of a larger group and not simply state a personal belief.Your statement that "I have insight into the text in question" does not answer what I asked.
You are right resurrection is a Christian concept.
By rejecting Jesus who preached resurrection the Jews clung on to Judaism.
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@Kadin
How do you distinguish a real religion from a fake one, i.e. a satirical joke (pastafarianism) or even cult? L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who brought Scientology to the world, and Scientology has been fighting many legal religious freedom battles in defense of their practices and privacy. How do you, or do you not, distinguish someone like L Ron Hubbard from someone like Joseph Smith, Siddhartha Gautama or the prophet Mohammad? Is there something in particular that makes someone or something a "legitimate" religion or religious leader that deserves recognition, rights and respect, vs. something that makes it a clear joke or something not to be taken seriously?
Matthew 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
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@Swagnarok
What attracted you to Catholicism?
Celibate priests and virgin birth.
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@Timid8967
A question for atheists.How many of you have come from a religious background? And what was this background? And what convinced you to become an atheist?Was it a journey or an epiphany? Did it cause problems with your family or partner at the time?And are you still connected somehow with the people from your old religious affiliation?
Humans are hardwired to believe in God.
Atheists are no different. They start as believers till it reaches a breaking point and belief can no longer be sustained.
But by then their character and personalities have already been developed so except for their atheism they are still the same people, unless something traumatic happens to change them.
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@janesix
The ribcage is bigger, the liver is way too far up and too big, kidneys too far up. Looks very unproportional to my eyes. Eyes have bone i the back where they used to be hollow. It is just very "wrong". It is like there was an"upgrade" over night. Although it doesn't seem like an upgrade, more like a down grade to a more robotic, fake like appearance, there is no harmony to it, no beauty like there used to be.There are many other changes to the world as well, and we can get into those if you would like.
A lot of things appear to change when women reach menopause
Another change I'd like to mention is dozens of new words I keep finding for the last month or so. And I have always been good with English, there are just way too many new words lately, that are supposedly not new.Changes in Bible.Changes in world map (big, noticeable changes)
Those are other changes menopausal women notice.
One recommendation is to follow this simple guide that applied to tampons but are still applicable to women undergoing changes.
If it hurts go with a smaller size.
If it leaks go with a bigger size.
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@Mandrakel
The Museum of the Bible announced recently that at least five of its Dead Sea Scrolls, among the most valuable and historically significant items in its collection, are fakes.Does it make any difference, since the information contained in all the scrolls is fake anyway?
After Dead Sea Forgeries Exposed, How Do We Know the Scrolls in Israel Are Authentic?
All scroll fragments at the Museum of the Bible in Washington turn out to be fakes: Experts explain how we know the massive trove of scrolls held in Jerusalem is genuine
All scroll fragments at the Museum of the Bible in Washington turn out to be fakes: Experts explain how we know the massive trove of scrolls held in Jerusalem is genuine
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@Elliott
Expressing something humorous or sarcastic in a serious manner is a failure in communication.
Expressing a death wish to be executed for blasphemy with your tongue-in-cheek because you are British hardly makes it normal.
Framing your death wish with tongue-in-cheek as a British idiom because you are British reflects the desperation your country and people are experiencing.
There was no death wish but I agree there is a failure in communication.
The Tyndale English translation of the Bible exposed the limitations of English when compared to Hebrew and Greek. So the British are more than guilty of a failure in translation. It has exacerbated into a failure of communication.
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@Sum1hugme
Suppose you are talking to a Holocaust survivor that renounced their faith after their time in Auschwitz. How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them?
Gods destroyed all life on earth by a flood, yet the Jews did not renounce their faith in the God of Abraham.
The Holocaust actually strengthened the faith of the Jews with a renewed determination to rebuild their Jewish homeland.
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@Timid8967
Why is the LDS considered a cult and not a proper Christian denomination?What are the primary points of similarity that put it in the Christian camp? And what are the points of doctrine which distinguish it from the traditional Christian position? And what are the unique and distinct perspectives of the Mormons that radically uplift it into weird territory?Please do not use this as a slanging board against the LDS. Use it as an opportunity to compare and contrast and analyze the Mormons and the veracity of its doctrines.
Mormons deny many of the central teachings of historical, traditional Christianity. This is no secret; one of the main doctrines of Mormonism is that God told their prophet, Joseph Smith, that all of the Christian denominations were wrong. Joseph believed he was called by God to restore the true religion of God, and that meant he had to call all the existing Christian churches (denominations) false.
If you call Christianity false, then it’s pretty strange to call yourself Christian. Yet, that’s what Joseph Smith did. He said that Mormonism replaces Christianity. However, he wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. He said that his religion believes in Jesus (although Mormon Jesus is very different from Christian Jesus), so his religion should be called Christian.
The argument continues almost 200 years since the founding of Mormonism. The Mormons say they are Christians (the only true Christians), and the Christians say they are non-Christian, or, at best, a “Christian cult.”
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@Elliott
My comment about being executed for blasphemy was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but the only thing I would risk my life for would be my family and certainly not some belief or lack of, or any ideals.
That is an odd death wish to be executed for blasphemy with your tongue-in-cheek. Even risking that for your family would hardly be ideal.
A possible misunderstanding, the term “tongue-in-cheek” refers to a humorous or sarcastic statement expressed in a serious manner. I don’t know what nationality you are but I’m British and it may be a British idiom.
Expressing something humorous or sarcastic in a serious manner is a failure in communication.
Expressing a death wish to be executed for blasphemy with your tongue-in-cheek because you are British hardly makes it normal.
Framing your death wish with tongue-in-cheek as a British idiom because you are British reflects the desperation your country and people are experiencing.
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Science Agrees With The Bible:Earth's Water
Science agrees with the Bible that water causes floods.
Bible says God uses floods to punish his creation.
Twenty-one Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened
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@janesix
Please ignore me when I get too strange.
Some common advice to women.
If it hurts switch to a smaller size.
It it leaks try a larger size.
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@Reece101
This is just a rough concept I was playing around with.The religion is called Triune of Fate.The Triune of Fate consists of three androgynous/hermaphrodite deities:The deity of mischief and joy, also known as the god of future.(Depicted as an adolescent).The deity of beauty and nature, also known as the god of present.(Depicted as middle aged).The deity of wisdom and reflection, also know as the god of past.(Depicted as elderly).To worship all three and to pay your respects, you have to at least once a week:
- Make someone laugh from joy.
- Give a compliment of sincerity.
- Improve ones life by giving advice.
Your religion demands we give up divine forgiveness, salvation, resurrection and the Trinity. How can we give up so much for so little?
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@Oldschoolpancakedummy
Oldschooldummy: Quite the opposite. I was raised anti Catholic, and my family is mostly devout Protestant.RationalMadman: Then I have like 0 understanding of how you became Catholic. I will go silent as I will not be able to respect it on a genuine level (taboo to say nowadays but guess what, it is a lie to respect a faith that makes 0 sense to you).
So Oldschooldummy went against your religious anti Catholic upbringing and devout Protestant family to convert to the Catholic faith.
Now you are here to go against everyone else.
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@Oldschoolpancakedummy
The Pope declaring Jesus’s life a failure and the cross a failure of God was saying the quiet part out loud.
If you'd like to dispute or discuss the context and explanation I put forward (which is obvious from the context of the quote itself) then I'd be more than happy to do so. If you're simply going to double down and keep repeating your erroneous assessment of what the holy father said, without even acknowledging any context or nuance, than I'm not interested.
You appear to agree with the Pope. “ I couldn't think of something that, at that moment, looked more like a failure.”
Hindsight is always 20/20, and we know the story doesn't end there. But from the disciples point of view? The one who you thought would be the redeemer of Israel, the promised, long awaited Messiah, is now dead on a cross at the hands of the Romans. I couldn't think of something that, at that moment, looked more like a failure.The Pope wasn't saying Christ's sacrifice failed to redeem us or something. I think you're reading into it.
The Pope declaring Jesus’s life a failure and the cross a failure of God was saying the quiet part out loud.
“And His LIFE, Humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS."
When desperation hits you then look at the CROSS. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH?
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@Oldschoolpancakedummy
Why did the Pope declare the cross a failure of God?
Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U. S. Tour. "And if at times OUR EFFORTS AND WORKS SEEM TO FAIL AND PRODUCE NO FRUIT, We need to REMEMBER that WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS? . . And His LIFE, Humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS."
When you don"t understand something, When desperation hits you then look at the CROSS. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH?
When you word it like that, with no context, it would sound blasphemous. When you actually posted the quote, it makes sense.Put yourself in the shoes of one of the apostles. Christ told them repeatedly what was going to happen to Him and they didn't get it. Now imagine, you're following this Man for three years, you see Him perform miracle after miracle, you've sacrificed everything, given up everything, and then, next thing you know, you see Him die the death of slaves and criminals.At that point in time, the cross looked like a profound failure. In the words of N.T Wright, if your Messiah got crucified you went out and got yourself a new Messiah.Hindsight is always 20/20, and we know the story doesn't end there. But from the disciples point of view? The one who you thought would be the redeemer of Israel, the promised, long awaited Messiah, is now dead on a cross at the hands of the Romans. I couldn't think of something that, at that moment, looked more like a failure.Obviously, we know that it doesn't end there. And obviously the Pope knows that as well.The Pope wasn't saying Christ's sacrifice failed to redeem us or something. I think you're reading into it.All that being said, the Pope is free to say whatever he'd like outside of his official teaching magisterium. Its not infallible
The Pope declaring Jesus’s life a failure and the cross a failure of God was saying the quiet part out loud.
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@Elliott
So wanting to stay alive keeps you honest about religion.
My comment about being executed for blasphemy was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but the only thing I would risk my life for would be my family and certainly not some belief or lack of, or any ideals.
That is an odd death wish to be executed for blasphemy with you tongue-in-cheek. Even risking that for your family would hardly be ideal.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
You refuse to discus your immoral views.RegardsDL
You need to turn to porn to discover immoral views. Immoral views are banned on religious forums.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Superseded???You mean we were exterminated by those of your inquisitor ilk.You will not be enlightened by me if you continue to believe in the supernatural and miracles that allow you to abdicate your own responsibilities.RegardsDL
The Jews were not impressed with Jesus’s miracles. They needed a saviour who would rid them of the Romans.
John 10:32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
The Jews were proven right. Without the supernatural miracles the Jews could not overthrow the Romans. The Romans went on to crucify a Jesus, destroy the Holy Temple and slaughter the Jews.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Not a word on the poor morals.So many do not want to stop sinning.A good way to end here.RegardsDL
@Harikrish
Scriptures show Jesus broke all the 10 commandments. These ironies exist in the Bible.
The 10 commandments say.
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, To keep it holy.
5. Honour your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
Jesus broke many of the commandments, If not all!
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
Jesus tried to claim he was God.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning You for any good work, " said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, Because You, Who are a man, Declare Yourself to be God. "
2. You shall not make idols.
Jesus made a covenant with a cup.
Luke 22:20 In the same way, After supper He took the cup, Saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, Which is poured out for you.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Jesus said every word he spoke came from God. Unless God too was as incoherent as Jesus. God in the OT never spoke in parables. His orders were clear and direct.
Luke 18:34 But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, And they did not comprehend what He was saying.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, To keep it holy.
Jesus broke the sabbath.
Pharisees accused Him of breaking the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10; Mark 3:2, John 9:14-16).
5. Honour your father and your mother.
Jesus tried to destroy the traditional family.
Matthew 10:35 For I have come to turn ""a man against his father, A daughter against her mother, A daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"
6. You shall not murder.
Jesus murdered the truth.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "
Yet he spent his entire ministry condemning the very people he was sent to save.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus was unfaithful to God and his disciples. He left them to die even though he was given all authority over heaven and earth.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
8. You shall not steal.
Jesus stole the words of the prophets before him and claimed they pointed to him.
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, Explaining from all the Scriptures. . . And Jesus explained to them what was said about himself in all the Scriptures, Beginning with the books of Moses and the writings of all the prophets".
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Jesus accused God of betraying and forsaking him on the cross.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, Lema sabachthani? " which means, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? "
10. You shall not covet.
Jesus suffered from a messiah complex and coveted the title messiah/Christ/Anointed one.
John 17:1 After Jesus said this, He looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, The hour has come. Glorify your Son, That your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, The only true God, And Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Scriptures tell us Jesus was tried, Convicted and crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy. . . . By the Romans. But the confusion continues.
Christians have waited for 2000 years for Jesus's return as he had promised without any success.
Preterists claims Christisns got it wrong, That Jesus returned in 70 AD.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim Jesus returned in 1874 or maybe 1914.
Others say Jesus could be the next thief who robs your house.
Revelation 16:15, Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:10 ESV - ("Behold, I am coming like a thief in the night! )
Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.
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@Oldschoolpancakedummy
Newly confirmed Catholic. Would love any questions from anyone.
Why did the Pope declare the cross a failure of God?
Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U. S. Tour. "And if at times OUR EFFORTS AND WORKS SEEM TO FAIL AND PRODUCE NO FRUIT, We need to REMEMBER that WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS? . . And His LIFE, Humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS."
When you don"t understand something, When desperation hits you then look at the CROSS. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH?
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@GnosticChristianBishop
I cannot agree.Most religious are moral agents.Most do not and cannot walk their religious talk in most sane and just nations.Society would not allow it elsewhere in the free world.We are all natural mimics and slaved to our tribal natures.We crave fellowship and that can only be found in tribes and groups, regardless of the ism the group is mimicking.It is great that the God religions are dying and the religions that put man above God are gaining converts.Religions overall, as I see things, are all going Gnostic.RegardsDL
Gnosticism is a first century religion that was superseded by Christianity.
The Gospel of Thomas strips Jesus of all miraculous powers and reduces him to a religious teacher. Gnostics believe God is the domain of the enlightened. You don’t appear even remotely enlightened.
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@Elliott
Since you never participated in those religious debates suggests they were unreceptive to your debates.
What is plan B?
The same as plan A, which to put simply, is not to try and debate religion with those who may be uninterested, offended or execute me for blasphemy.
So wanting to stay alive keeps you honest about religion.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me,
The only escape from this curse was to be born of a Virgin as in Jesus’s case.
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Yet Jesus taught the opposite.I gave you those quotes in----On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.RegardsDL
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus had no choice.God sent Jesus to be sacrifice for us.
Jesus had no choice and lamented on the cross.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Let's chat on the morals that would have you ignore what Jesus taught, and sin to be saved?On Jesus dying for you and Christians. Try to think in a moral way.It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.RegardsDL
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus had no choice.God sent Jesus to be sacrifice for us.
Jesus had no choice and lamented on the cross.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
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