Yea I will leave it at that. The data wasn’t responded to so this was a non response lol! For more personal talk outside of going back and forth my new degree path can make six figures. I would just have to get a different job other than being a professor lol (I’m torn on that. I may go towards the money route, but part of me wants to be a professor as well)! I would have to work mainly as a researcher because it is more of a science background lol (I really would make the money in the private sector for what I do lol)! Again if you want to better understand data I will give you some readings (Again this isn’t an insult, but it is an offer because I feel you would understand stuff better. My new degree is research/stats centered, so I have a lot of material I could show if interested). The only thing that I wanted to reply to which is why I came back was the long winded response. We are on a debate platform having a discussion. That is literally what the site is for lol! If we were sitting back having a beer it would be a different vibe lol (I’m more a whiskey guy lol! Burbon is definitely the way to go lol)
I would love to say something, but will leave it because I know that there will be a lot mentioned in the debate. I think if I put too much in regard to information in the comment section may take away from the debate. I do hope you enjoy the debate though lol!
(For Wylted). I may or may not respond past this because I do want to focus on this debate I have here. I do appreciate the discussion lol! If you do want to debate at some point that is still on the table. I just have some research stuff to focus on so I may get distracted. I may send a friend request so we can talk at a further time lol
For Wylted- sorry there was so much to say so I had to chop it up lol! The Refrences are below
Refrences
https://guides.lib.uconn.edu/exploreinfo/peerreview
https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/articles/spotlight/research/black-students-are-punished-more-often
https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/articles/spotlight/research/black-students-are-punished-more-often
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/in-the-know/iq-only-reflects-a-persons-socioeconomic-status/02476B81A2DF0B958E780D90C27CDFAA
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles
https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/incarceration-fathers-sons-study.php
(For Wylted) Crime analogy wasn’t meant to actually be a debate between country crime but Europe conquered a lot of the world lol! Blaming Mexico for not being on the same level as say the UK, the U.S., Canada, and the Scandinavian countries is interesting. You can’t really copy and paste if you are physically behind these countries. Also there are other factors that can be listed which keep nations there such as governmental stuff that may or may not be out of the people’s control depending on the country one lives in. Granted this was supposed to be an analogy and when you do give all the pieces it rings true still. This actually even rings true when comparing first world countries to some degree. The point was it wasn’t based on skin color but other factors such as poverty, people in charge, and educational availability.
You mentioned social scientists try to overcomplicate confounding variables. Simply put this is basic stats. ANCOVA and multiple regression are typical methods and they use this. It is a basic stats principle (Field, 2018).
You mentioning that that does it matter why black kids have a lower IQ compared to white kids, and this is where liberals f up is weird lol! First off again I’m not liberal, I am in the middle and have many conservative viewpoints. I just lean liberal here. You mention that the reason doesn’t matter because we should focus on fixing the problem. Further you mention low IQ white communities, which I won’t say too much on because we will have some agreement here. 1. I disagree with labeling the problem, but agree we need to find solutions. I just think understanding the ins and outs of these issues actually helps us find a solution. 2. Many liberal scholars come up with ideas. The problem is politicians on both sides actually don’t understand it, and actively misrepresent their own scholars at times. The media more portrays it as a this or that while there are plenty of scholars on both sides actually trying to find solutions. We just disagree how to get there. That is why identify the problem is often important.
(For Wylted)
Regarding homeschooling, what I said is true because research has been done on this. There are ways to obtain population groups from both subsets via the central limit theorem (Field). So what I am saying isn’t assumed, it’s been tested and shown. Same with the struggles educator go through. Educational researchers have studied and cited struggles through mixed methods research, quantitative research, qualitative research, and quasi experiemental research to determine this (Field, 2018; Myers et al., 2017; Campbell & Stanley 1959). Simply put, this all has been research and I cited scholars to show this as well. You mention IQ being a possible variable and that may be true. The problem with this is that higher IQ is also correlated with socioeconomic standing (Cambridge.org). You ignoring the item I mentioned in regard to making a correlation causation fallacy while saying I am not coming from a tabula rasa way is interesting. I actually demonstrated most claims based on how data and research is conducted to determine knew findings. This is done through various fields and has been proven to be correct even in the hard sciences (Field, 2018; Friedman, 2006). Diverting saying I am not following the tabula rasa way which is “an absence of preconceived ideas or predetermined goals; a clean slate”, is actually crazy. I am citing scholars through in text citations, showing how data works, and research works, while you hand wave away research without presenting much of your own. You typically state it so while I am at least providing in text citations if a reference page was not shown. This means the audience can look up my claims while most of your remains unjustified. The sad thing is, I don’t have predetermined goals because in regard to racial items I use to agree with you until I learned to research. You hand waving away data is a problem that is yours not mine. If I said something wasn’t up to standard it was because the research process that has been proven to work within universities says it’s wrong while I provided citations to back it up. You mentioning genetics is wild because if we wanted to is shown that poor black kids are typically way poorer than poor white kids (Berkley). We see this disparity based on issues such as pay rates based on non college degree/high school graduate data which shows minorities being payed far less despite being at the same education level (Berkeley). Regardless yea you typically don’t have as many behavior issues from poor white people but that is due to a variety of factors such as the incarnation rate which has been high since the civil war ended and caused there to be difficulty when raising kids (Berliner & Hermans, 2022). You had periods like the civil rights times and the war on drug times, which has caused a cycle of youth to see parents locked up (Anamma, 2018). If you have parents locked up it is more likely for you to follow the same footsteps (Anamma, 2018; Fau.edu). I can also back up that minorities are more likely to be punished more harshly for the same behaviors when compared to white people, which can be shown in schools and in the actually prison system (Anamma, 2018; Berliner &Hermans 2022; Berkeley; Michigan law).
(For Wylted) I hate to say it’s unfortunate because you have continued with the same fallacies. To start for IQ data you are not citing research, and just citing regular websites. These are know for errors, and it has been shown peer review is more accurate (Libguides; Friedman 2006). It’s interesting you think you know more than experts. You see meta-analysis is a statistical method used across multiple studies (Myers et al., 2017). If you don’t understand the math I am sorry, but that doesn’t make it wrong. You making stuff in regard to women studies I can’t address simply because that isn’t my area of study, but you still don’t understand how population groups work as described by (Ruel et al., 2017). You have to compare populations based on your research question and the statement was never were teachers the smartest. You citing those majors are simply just comparing two vastly different population groups. Engineers and physicists would be at the top, and is even mentioned with the meta-analysis is cited. Granted you’re still going to say it’s biased somehow even though it has certain aspects which agree with some of your claims, which shows it controls for bias. The original claim was teachers being low IQ and being lower IQ compared to most other degree paths, when it really matches with the average. Of course engineers and physicists will be higher because they are the top of the top. That doesn’t deal with the claim that educators have a lower IQ because research shows otherwise. The problem with your citation not being peer review is it actually leaves off plenty of other fields of study as well, which are even cited below teachers. I’m not making some grand claim like teachers are brilliant, but I can show the claims are false.
(For Wylted) I will hold off on replies to this forum simply because I am debating. If you want a message box discussion or a debate I am willing to go through with it. I simply don’t want to ruin the debate by debating in the comment section as well over my own debate. Hope all is well and I hope your day goes well lol!
That is real interesting. I will add it to my bookshelf at some point. Some good reads as well would be Carter G Woodson’s book “the mis-education of the negro”, and WEB Dubois book called “Soul of Black Folk”. A more modern scholar I love is Jarvis Givens. He I’ve read a lot of his work, but my favorite book of his so far is called school clothes. Thanks for giving me a new book to read lol!
(For Wylted) Again look at my original claim. It would match with it because black history will show negative aspects in the American history. Prager mentioned that certain teachings of black history is causing contempt towards America. This matches with my original comment and what it was trying to convey. You mentioning the nuance of his wording doesn’t show anything because black history is black history. Prager isn’t an expert so he is going to say things extremely untrue. The word anti-white doesn’t change that actual message because the words match a similar message of what I was trying to convey some conservatives as saying. Again this is proven true based on his own words. You mentioning me citing a reporter instead of his bill doesn’t mean anything. This researcher may not have been publishing a study, but when you go to do work for colleges, your work goes through a process to ensure a certain level of accuracy (Ruel et al., 2017). This means that the material is checked by other researchers to ensure that the information is accurate. Researchers can still come to wrong conclusions, because all people are fallible, but they are checked for accurate citations. This can be backed up by numerous others such as ones from Florida A&M, and colleges that are more historically white. Critical race theory is honestly just touted as bad by Fox News when the actual definition is “an academic and legal framework that explicates racism as structural, institutionalized in the history, systems, and policies of the United States. Critical Race Theory recognizes that racism transcends individual bias and prejudice, it is embedded in legal, social, and educational policies and systems that uphold racial inequality” (Sage pub). If you want to debate racism we can, I can show you how all this is true basically lol! Simply put though my original comment matches similar to Prager and my research in regard to policy still stands and is shown to be the norm in research. You actually have more bias towards publishing works in favor of minority causes, which I can site if you like (To eliminate this being a anti conservative thing. There are such things as conservative researchers. I know you didn’t claim this, but I hear this a lot so I am addressing it beforehand lol).
Refrences
https://researchmethodscommunity.sagepub.com/blog/critical-race-theory-fire-and-dangerous-things
(For wylted) So I don’t mean to sound wrong, but it may come off that way, and if it does I am sorry. First of all socioeconomic isn’t “code”. It is considered in research a confounding variable or a sample group depending on how the study is done (Field, 2018; Ruel et al., 2017). In what I was referencing in the previous reply it fits as a confounding variable/covariate (Other explanation of the data). Depending on the type of analysis you run you can involve a confounding variable/covariate (Field, 2018). This would involve poor people of every race within the analysis, but poverty does affect black people more so it would show this in the analysis. Due to the statistical model it would say socioeconomic status would affect many issues, which does happen to correlate with minorities.
On your claim with IQ, I hate to say you are running from your original claims. At first you mentioned that teachers were low IQ, which is shown by the analysis that they weren’t. You also made a claim that it was one of the lowest IQ degrees and I presented a meta analysis of 106 studies to show that this was the average across most college degrees, which means that your claim again was false in regard to it being one of the lowest IQ degrees. Yea you can do what is considered bivariate means comparisons between two different groups, but that doesn’t encompass the whole of college degrees (Fields, 2018; Myers et al., 2017). The analysis of that magnitude would involve about any college degree imaginable. You citing one field that has higher IQ’s doesn’t prove your point because that doesn’t encompass every sample group (Ruel et al., 2017). It also is you retracting on a few different occasions whether you know it or not, because your first claim was low IQ, and your second claim was that they were one of the lowest IQ degree paths. Both were demonstrated as false. Your mentioning homeschooling data doesn’t really show much again due to many things I said already and some additional things I will point out. First off teachers again have to deal with anybody and everybody from IEP kids, behavior kids, kids with home issues, kids with different learning needs, and oversized classrooms (Berliner & Hermans, 2022). You never dealt with any of this because someone homeschooling wouldn’t have this many barriers. You may be able to find someone with one or a couple of these but not all. This is something teachers have to deal with on the regular (I have taught and tutored. The experiences are very different with tutoring being easier, because the kids want to be there and there are less of them. I would kill to teach only one kid. That is a cake walk in most cases). So even though you never actually dealt with the factors or “confounding variables” that would affect teacher performance we can move on to something else in regard to this. First homeschool children and public school children are vastly different population groups. Performance has nothing to do with teaching, but simply has to do with parental involvement, more opportunities due to possible socioeconomic status, and parents having less kids (Fields, 2018; Myers et al., 2017; Berliner & Hermans 2022). I mention this simply because this also effects the school choice movement where private schools perform better than public and some charters perform better than public in some scenarios (It’s about even with charter’s) (Berliner & Hermans 2022; Kalulu et al., 2017) (If someone has more parental involvement and had more resources it’s easier to perform better). Again I’m not trying to sound mean, but you should actually read researchers and read how researchers form methodologies. You are making a lot of correlation causation fallacies without knowing it (This is not meant to be an insult. I’m a researcher/statistician who has actually presented peer review work at Cornell. This reading actually takes a lot to understand so it isn’t a dig. Think of it this way, if someone tried to compare crime in a poor country like Mexico with a richer country like a wealthier European country, one may say that white people are better than minorities in regard to crime based on skin color. That is a correlation causation fallacy similar to what you mentioned. The other explanation would be poverty levels). If you want readings on research methodology, education, statistics, black history, or minority research let me know. I will give you the good bad and ugly from every side. My offer to debate racial issues is still on the table. I may be willing to do something in regard to schools as well. Just let me know instead of us just using a comment thread lol! Anyway nice conversation.
(For Wylted) So I will try to answer as best as I can because I am doing this from my phone. Studies I found show IQ of teachers between the range of 102-115. This would be considered normal IQ average, which will be showed in this citation (science.org) You are wrong about it being one of the lower IQ’s for college degrees, because meta analysis show that the average undergrad IQ is 102 (Science.org) (For those who don’t know what a meta-analysis is, it is essentially a bunch of studies combined into one analysis. It provides extremely reliable results across the literature as seen by Myers et al., 2017). There are obviously differences in sub groups, such as major and specific colleges attended. This does show your comment is a little misinformed because this seems to be the consensus (I won’t say for sure, but just looking today it seems that way). Your comment about “studies trying to paint a narrative around black people shows that you need to read a little more about this”. Researchers such as Berliner & Hermans show that other factors are associated with behavior such as socioeconomic status. This in stats is considered a confounding variable (Field, 2018). (Other explanation for the data). You have researchers such as Annama that say racism is shown in the school system, because you can see minorities punished heavier for the same issues. This is shown in some regard in qualitative and quantitative data (I can show school to prison-pipeline data). You mentioning your IQ and learning disability experience is interesting. I would say it’s more complicated, but from my experience college doesn’t teach gen ed teacher enough about this. I would say I need to view IEP plans to understand better, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that. I had a high IQ but was put in certain classes because I functioned better with little noise on tests. You can be smart and have an IEP. That is a misconception many people have. Your third grade math example is interesting, but is too narrow for me to give an easy answer to. It could be a number of things such as child behavior, the district wanting math taught a certain way (That one is a real pain. They do make math harder than it should be at times), it could be having a diverse set of students (Not everyone learns the same), it could be oversized classrooms (this is worse in poorer schools), or it could be learning disabilities (it does happen). Not everyone is your kid, and that isn’t how science is done. You perform studies with a decent size population so you can generalize the results (Field, 2018; Ruel et al., 2017). If we went with decisions off one person then we would overlook everyone else (Also the teachers have way more students to teach than you would, if you taught your kid). I will note that my school district and my school has improved proficiency in math and reading each year over the past 5 years, so it really depends on the setting and what is going on. One off cases without being in the room are hard to solve.
Refrences
https://www.scienceopen.com/hosted-document?doi=10.14293/S2199-1006.1.SOR.2024.0002.v1
I agree to an extent. More of what I would get at though is black history isn’t taught enough. Our history is whitewashed, and made to not look as bad in many areas. When you read into it, you actually see that slavery was more harsh than what is described in our textbooks (A good read on this is African American historian Jarvis Givens). I won’t go into too much detail because the debate will cover a lot of this. Many items are glossed over in relation to schooling, which affected opportunities for African Americans. We also typically don’t learn a lot about Carter G Woodson (Created black history month), and WEB Dubios (First African American with a PhD. Woodson is the second and he actually was a slave at first). I would say teaching black history of how individuals defied odds and made something for themselves is important and gives individuals in the minority community hope. I could point out too that it helps us show racial tendencies as well, but I don’t want to go too in detail. I do agree about the black history month to some degree if everything was taught equally. I do hope you enjoy the debate lol!
(For Wylted. Idk why it won’t tag you lol). I will say I paraphrased a bit, but you do get comments very similar to this. I will cite you a few conservative talk show people as an example, and how Trump has tried to minimize black history in schools to make it not look as bad. Idk why you have to have exactly one certain talk show host, but I can add comments of his as well. First off I wouldn’t say I’m liberal or conservative because I really go different ways on different issues. To start, talk show conservatives such as Dennis Prager says that we teach an anti-white history with a quote here “The purpose of all teaching about race in American schools is to engender contempt for America. They are, therefore, "taught" the lies of The New York Times' "1619 Project" — that the United States was founded to preserve and protect slavery — and of such works as Robin DiAngelo's "White Fragility”. (Creators.com). Contempt for America is implying that we are diminishing something within American history against what is taught. There is more to this article, and more to say in response to this article because he does try to defend his claims. I’m not going to argue about his other claims at this time unless you want to be the one who signs the debate thing here lol! Then we can go at it in regard to arguments about how black history is taught. When you actually read though, history is very white washed, and individuals like Trump tried to actually keep it this way. In Trump’s first term he tried to pass the patriot education act, which minimized slavery in to calling slaves just “workers”. (Penne 2020). This actually downplays how harsh slavery actually was (I will make these arguments more in my opening. I would rather not reveal my first moves lol). Again if you want to debate black history accept the debate or I can replicate this debate for you to accept. Either way doesn’t bother me because I love the conversations. Now in regard to what you mention I gave the citations needed for the message I was actually trying to convey. The founding father things was paraphrased because I was relaxing late at night, but conservatives do feel that black history is taught in a way that is against the ideals of America and you have policy makers who make decisions within that same sort of framework (This does make my founding father thing make sense though, because they are touted as the brave individuals who fought for freedom. Claims with racial items hurts this view, and this is without me saying too much negatively. I don’t necessarily dislike the founding fathers, but if you look at how they viewed slaves it was wrong. We can all learn from individuals past mistakes). If we want to move to Ben Shapiro we can, but it isn’t really necessary. Shapiro is more nuanced than prager, and I wouldn’t say he specifically makes these stamens like prager, but he does downplay slavery. An example of this is a speech that he gave titled, America was not built on slavery. You can do what you want with this claim and I could again argue that this isn’t the best claim to make, but I will leave it at that. Shapiro says more things like “But those who are determined to see America’s story as a continuing story of oppression, those determined to paint America’s history as an eternal story of brutality and slavery, rather than as a struggle toward freedom and equal rights in concert with the original founding principles of the country, suggest that slavery remains the defining feature of American life.” (Bu.edu). I would disagree because we can prove racism heavily in our society today, and past issues from slavery impact black people to this day. If you would want to debate if racism affects the U.S. heavily I can do that as well because that is my most debated topic. My point was that their are plenty of politicians that frame talking about black history as being against actual American ideals, which can be seen if you watch numerous people on the right side of the isle. Also I will comment on your other comments that you left about teaching and I do actually enjoy the back and forth (On another thread). I’m just cooking a mean Philly cheesesteak right now lol! It’s just that my point does stand when you view policy and certain talk show people. If you thought I was being specific with my claim I wasn’t. It was just late, and I made a more general statement, which is really still backed up.
Refrences
https://www.creators.com/read/dennis-prager/11/20/what-american-schools-should-teach-about-race-racism-and-slavery
https://news.utexas.edu/2020/10/24/patriotic-education-is-a-whitewashing-of-history/
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/ben-shapiro-at-boston-university/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%2520title%2520of%2520the%2520event,a%2520good%2520university%2520is%2520about.%E2%80%9D
It’s changed if you want to do it. Tell me what you think and I can revise if necessary. I am at a conference so I just did this real quick. I’m off now so I should be able to respond quicker lol!
Honestly I can’t speak to say I know for sure, but I don’t think it is a rush. Honestly I’ve dated kind women too, who just never worked out. I stayed friends with many of them, despite never ending up with them. Honestly I just stuck to searching for women who had the goals I mentioned before. Eventually if you keep doing that you will find her. You also need to be kind but strong and up front as well. There is no need to be a “bad boy”, to get a girl. Women from my experience like if I guy stands up for what they believe in (There is a way to stand up if something is wrong or if you feel your significant other does some stuff. You can create an environment where she can do this too. Fighting is part of relationships and it is how you move forward. Now don’t fight over every little thing, but normalize talking. It solves a lot of problems. I see a lot of unhappy marriages where someone bottles emotions in the whole time). I mentioned living for you a lot because I feel like I failed on this for a while. I work extremely hard. As a teacher alone you are given a lot of task not many see, and during the school year, teaching can be like working more than one job. Additionally I coached sports, refereed games, and worked after school care to earn extra money for school. Along with this I drive an hour and a half to my college because they are one of the best in regard to research (I am shooting for one day getting out of teaching and working in a research field. There is no money in teaching and the people in charge don’t care about teachers in many settings. Our education system is going to suffer in the long turn because of this). I love my job even though I am trying to leaves, because I view that education as Horace Mann says can be the great equalizer in helping people be successful. I work with a lot of troubled youth and work a lot behind the scenes creating after schools groups in what spar time I get to work with them. Hopefully be a light they typically don’t see on a normal basis. With all that I noticed from the sheer amount of work I was doing, I wasn’t spending as much time with my wife (It’s summer now so I can make it up, but I won’t make that mistake again). Doing that made her upset at times, because life was work. There are plenty of teachers like me, but we are starting to leave. What remains are teachers who don’t care, and the few good ones can’t kill ourselves to lift the schools up alone (Part of me almost wants to give up the six figure job to be a college professor. As much as I want money, I signed up to help a cause which is failing in my state). Trying to pick up where most people would refuse to help, caused me to miss valuable time with family. If I could go back I would. I unfortunently can’t, so I can just move forward. From now on I gave up all my side jobs and my only side thing will be school (I’m halfway done. I am too far in to give that up). My eyes opened when I heard the new that I will be having a kid, because I don’t want to miss any part of there life.
(For Wylted. It won’t let me tag him lol! It says not active). The only thing you are right about is that teachers don’t get paid a lot. That’s why I’m obtaining a PhD and getting a higher paying job within the school system. I can actually make a good bit of money doing this, and my PhD program can actually get me high paying jobs outside of the school system as well (career transition. I can actually make six figures if I play my cards right when I finish). Umm to the low IQ and summers off, it’s seems that you don’t know what you are talking about. Teaching is honestly an art form, and to be good at it, you have to be able to teach students of all different needs from behavioral issues, IEP kids (I specifically teach visually and hearing impaired kids, along with cognitive issues), ethnic differences, and kids without parents. This actually gets quite hard, which is why teachers are leaving the field. Not to mention discipline issues can be out of control. I actually choose to work in an area that has rougher students due to economic issues there family faces, so I can be a parental figure. Yes we get summers off, but it is about needed. I basically work two jobs to help pay for school, and my teaching job does often keep me doing work late at night to provide for the students. Honestly I’ve put a full years work in by the end of summer anyway lol! As someone who has worked full year round before and taught, working full year round is actually easier to me. This is due to all the challenges teachers face during the school year, which actually cause more stress compared to jobs I worked full year round. Maybe before saying something, you should actually research the teaching field. There are plenty of studies that back up many of my claims in regard to the difficulty of teaching and why many teachers are trying to find different careers (Many of these are work full year around jobs. Compared to what teaching is becoming I will probably transition to this once I graduate lol! Also if you want some actual reading on this from experts let me know).
Really depends. I could probably change the topic to is history whitewashed or something. This is more though a debate about whether black history should be implemented in schools. If you read a lot of black history you see not much is taught under the black perspective. You get more conservative people who claim that teaching more on the black perspective is wrong because “It is making the founding fathers look bad”. Some people may not quite understand the implications behind actions they do. If this is a crappy title I will revise it to more of a history/policy debate on if history taught in schools is white washed lol! I’ve just heard some conservatives argue against black history being taught in public schools, which was why this was done.
I’m still trying to figure my life out, but I am 28 (About to be 29). Truth is I think nobody ever has it life out as a whole. Even though I have worked hard I am still broke, despite accomplishing a decent amount. I am currently a teacher who is happily married to my wife (The only woman I ever loved). I am halfway through my PhD program in educational research at the University of Southern Mississippi (This is one reason I’m broke. Trying to provide a better life for my family and future family due to planning to become a dad. What shocked me is that it is close around the corner and wasn’t planned). I’ve worked hard, and have spoke at Universities for teacher conferences and peer review research (My top conference was presenting at Cornell. Not bad for a someone from Alabama). Even though I am trying to learn myself, there is a lot I have learned from the past which keeps me moving. 1. Work hard, but don’t overwork yourself. This is hard especially if you want to be successful, but I learned slowing down is important. Especially if you have family (memories with people you care about are important). 2. Don’t let people discourage your aspirations. Now, you do want to be someone who does something that can provide for yourself (A stable career maybe). I mention this to say, that when I started my journey in working to obtain my PhD people downplayed my intelligence. It’s true that I am not the smartest, but people would say that if I can make it anyone can (There are plenty more. I just tune them out). Halfway through this program I am currently in the running to graduate with the highest average (I’ve maintained a 4.0 this whole time through hard work). 3. If you want to get married, find someone with similar values, someone who has goals, and someone who is driven to accomplish those goals (Usually people that have good values and work hard are more likely to be dedicated to a relationship). Before I went on my first date with my wife, I thought that I found this woman who was amazing. She was pretty, and all the guys liked her. Come to find out, she wasn’t a good person and I had to end it, which did hurt me (I dated for looks, not character. She could be a cool person now, but that is so far removed that I don’t think about it now). Fast forward months later I went on a date with another beautiful woman who had the characteristics mentioned above. Eight years later we have been together this long. This includes three years of marriage with our first Child on the way (The mistakes from the previous relationship were actually when I was 20, so it is in the time frame mentioned. I met my wife at 21). If you want to ask anything feel free. Asking about this at such a young age means you are probably ahead of a lot of people. I use to just think of drinking whiskey and chasing woman at that age (Ironically I never did a good job hitting on them. They just came to me if I’m being honest. Not that what I did then was right lol!)
Yea I was about to say, I’m honestly cool wherever this ends up lol! It was a good debate, which is why everyone is scoring it pretty close. Lol we may have to debate again at some point, but on a different subject to change it up lol! Either way it was fun lol! It was good to share the debate stage with you lol!
You’ve given some good advice in both my recent debates. I’m going to finish reading your one on DEI. I do like the suggestions from both debates. I will read and keep it in mind for the future.
Is it more a suggestion to switch tactics lol? I’m not asking that to be wrong, I typically don’t debate, so this is new. The approach in terms was to point how stats can predict these things based on the model, but I do actually see how that is hard to convince the audience. Before I became a researcher/statistician I would have probably not understood as well. I’m basically not trying to argue in the comments but more wondering if I talked past the audience and my opponent lol! If so I may revise a little in the future lol!
You know I disagree, but might I say your name is cool as all get out lol! The gear in the profile? Are you an Indiana Jones fan lol? I’m asking because those are like my favorite movies ever lol! Regardless, glad you enjoyed the debate lol!
Thanks! I may be back at it again in a week or two. I need a break after school. I may do a topic such as school choice, technology in school, is high stakes testing best for society schools, or I may do a religious debate. I haven’t done that in ages lol!
Point taken lol! I’m a researcher so I don’t debate often. We also try to pack a lot in one area (Examples are lit review sections of articles). I am mainly doing this to read for a new research study I am thinking about publishing. Anyway good debate!
If I don’t get the chance to say it good debate lol! We disagree but I appreciate you read a lot lol! I’m slow with replies due to grad school so I will eventually be there (I have to drive almost two hours for my PhD class in multivariate analysis. That typically takes it out of me for the week because I work two jobs as well lol)! Anyway best of luck in the future and I’m sure we may debate again if you ever want. This experience has been fun lol!
My bad! I didn’t know really! I’m pretty easy going so I was worried about taking off lol! You did good. I hope to debate you at some point on something lol!
I am about to send my next reply, but I do want to put something in the comments for my opponent and the audience to see. We are of course pretty contrasting in styles which I am cool with and I am enjoying the discussion. Debate is spirited and I actually don’t take anything said to be mean spirited lol (We may spar a little more with words in this lol)! I know I of course critique my opponent with sources, but I do want to say I am not accusing someone of purposely saying something to be misleading. I will let my reply speak for itself, because I don’t want to make arguments in the comment section (I don’t think that would be right). I just want my opponent to know, that even though I make strong claims with certain things with citations, it is more because I actually conduct research with it, or I have some form of background (Things such as stats and research methodology is hard. I am a PhD student in educational research and stats is my strongest background and I still make plenty of mistakes lol!) My research at the moment is limited to Charter school segregation, so I am really still a student of the game in many aspects (Idk if my article will get published. I spoke at Cornell about it, and it was good enough for that but I am new to the publishing process lol). The interesting thing is the more I learn is the more I find out I have way more to learn. Anyway I look forward to by opponents reply!
I have my reply ready, minus the reference page made. I am just waiting because I need to post a reply in my other debate and I am focused on my homework for a grad school class lol!
If anyone is interested, after this debate ends I may do something similar with some differences. I may do a history one like “Was slavery in the U.S. a racist practice (I do know some who say that it wasn’t)”, or I may do “Is the removal of DEI, beneficial”? I may work out the kinks in the meantime lol!
Welcome debate opponent! I may or may not be quick with this, because I am working two jobs and I am in grad school. I am mainly doing this for fun, and I look forward to our interaction.
Yea I get what you mean with that. I did think about it. Part of the reason I didn’t was because to my experience individuals who lean right vs. individuals who lean left will have different terms for it. An example of this, would be institutional racism where many individuals on the right wouldn’t think of it as racism. Part of the battle would be showing how it is. I did have this debate a little over a year ago and the definition of terms was interesting (He was nice in the debate though lol!) Many behavioral science concepts will have differing definitions in how things work depending on the construct in question. That is solid advice though. It may be something I use in the future, like I may argue in this way and it would be acceptable for the opponent to say that this wouldn’t be racist.
I may take you up on that if possible in a couple days. I want to first say I am sorry for the late reply. I am a PhD student in educational research and I had a big project due in my quantitative analysis 2 class. I did not want to say no, so I just waited until I finished the project before I would accept. One of my education classes has an assignment due on multicultural education, so let me finish that and I should be ready by tomorrow or Monday if you are up for it.
I think the only area we disagree is abortion due to me being religious and viewing it as a life. Typically though I understand why it happens and that the decision is difficult on the mother at the time. That and I feel like even though I lean to the right on this issue, many individuals who are pro life aren’t pro life for the whole life. Trans issues I agree (I was the only religious person in my family that believed it was not our right to say these people couldn’t get married and they deserved equal rights). Corporal punishment for children I agree. Mass child circumcision we agree. The other two I don’t know what they are to know enough about lol! I would rather be honest on that lol!
We may have too many similarities to go with this debate now that I have read a little more into your definition/opening statement from your other debate (it’s my fault for half reading while at a family member’s house.) I fit more in the socialist camp, so our biggest dispute would be on property, is this system possible, and is there too much government control in this system. So I guess I will bow out and let someone else take the reins lol!
Ok! I found it and will read it. From what I can see so far I may be willing to debate this unless someone snags it from me first. Based on what I am reading so far, I think that we have some differences along with some similarities which may make it worth while. I asked the weird question on the outset because I didn’t want to misrepresent anything if I accept.
This debate is interesting and I may accept if I have time to ponder it. I am an independent, so I have a lot of liberal ideologies along with some conservative. I may accept this because we debated before and I enjoyed our conversation. If I do we may have some things we agree on a decent amount because I have some liberal ways of thinking. My question while I ponder is are you defending communism like how China is, or is there some differences. I am asking because if we do debate I don’t want to strawman positions by accident.
This is an interesting topic! As someone who is an independent I am not sure where I fall on this. I am not sure about the $500 a month thing, but we are grossly underpaid unless you are rich. I am a teacher with my master’s degree and I am going for my PhD. Even with all that I make peanuts and I barely afford to live in a one bedroom apartment. That will change soon because my wife is about to be done with nursing school, but my point is that if someone who should be considered middle class is struggling, imagine the poorer classes. I am not sure where I lie on this one and I can’t wait to read it! One thing is for sure, most of the middle/poorer classes aren’t paid enough.
Yea I understand that! Nobody will agree 100% and I am doing this to grow more as a person and possibly change my mind on some items. Also I didn't put this in my reply, but their is more than one GCU article.
You are good! I probably could have done some things better as well. With this being written we can't really tell what we are thinking all the time. My accusations from this could have been wrong, I just have never interacted with you until now so I don't know you. I have had some discussions where I face off against YEC and some where I have debated individuals who deny racism effects the US still. Many of them lie about their sources so I typically review my opponents sources first (Nothing personal, just interacted with some weird people in the past lol). You are actually my first atheist opponent, because my degree doesn't deal with religion mainly research/stats. Before I type my response I will put I understand why you have argued the way you have argued on some points. Especially with homosexuality, because when I was in High school I was Christian, but felt the US should allow gay marriage because religion should hold no bounds over the law. Living in Alabama, I was about ostracized from my religious friends for holding that view (I no longer have those friends). Even worse I have actually seen some people in my state advocate for the the death of these people, so I argue with a lot of individuals who lie and are hateful (I had this interaction on a different debate site and I was livid by my opponents statements). I have looked at some of your debates recently and I think more often than not, we would find ourselves on the same team with political debates, just not religious. Nothing you have said has made me mad, I am just an uptight researcher who has dealt with a lot of crazy people and I have enjoyed this interaction even though my statements seem a bit pushy at times. Honestly it is refreshing to me to debate someone who cares about the struggle of others. I would find myself closer to you then some Christians I have dealt with (No hate towards Christians, because I am one).
Yea I will leave it at that. The data wasn’t responded to so this was a non response lol! For more personal talk outside of going back and forth my new degree path can make six figures. I would just have to get a different job other than being a professor lol (I’m torn on that. I may go towards the money route, but part of me wants to be a professor as well)! I would have to work mainly as a researcher because it is more of a science background lol (I really would make the money in the private sector for what I do lol)! Again if you want to better understand data I will give you some readings (Again this isn’t an insult, but it is an offer because I feel you would understand stuff better. My new degree is research/stats centered, so I have a lot of material I could show if interested). The only thing that I wanted to reply to which is why I came back was the long winded response. We are on a debate platform having a discussion. That is literally what the site is for lol! If we were sitting back having a beer it would be a different vibe lol (I’m more a whiskey guy lol! Burbon is definitely the way to go lol)
I would love to say something, but will leave it because I know that there will be a lot mentioned in the debate. I think if I put too much in regard to information in the comment section may take away from the debate. I do hope you enjoy the debate though lol!
(For Wylted). I may or may not respond past this because I do want to focus on this debate I have here. I do appreciate the discussion lol! If you do want to debate at some point that is still on the table. I just have some research stuff to focus on so I may get distracted. I may send a friend request so we can talk at a further time lol
For Wylted- sorry there was so much to say so I had to chop it up lol! The Refrences are below
Refrences
https://guides.lib.uconn.edu/exploreinfo/peerreview
https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/articles/spotlight/research/black-students-are-punished-more-often
https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/articles/spotlight/research/black-students-are-punished-more-often
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/in-the-know/iq-only-reflects-a-persons-socioeconomic-status/02476B81A2DF0B958E780D90C27CDFAA
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles
https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/incarceration-fathers-sons-study.php
(For Wylted) Crime analogy wasn’t meant to actually be a debate between country crime but Europe conquered a lot of the world lol! Blaming Mexico for not being on the same level as say the UK, the U.S., Canada, and the Scandinavian countries is interesting. You can’t really copy and paste if you are physically behind these countries. Also there are other factors that can be listed which keep nations there such as governmental stuff that may or may not be out of the people’s control depending on the country one lives in. Granted this was supposed to be an analogy and when you do give all the pieces it rings true still. This actually even rings true when comparing first world countries to some degree. The point was it wasn’t based on skin color but other factors such as poverty, people in charge, and educational availability.
You mentioned social scientists try to overcomplicate confounding variables. Simply put this is basic stats. ANCOVA and multiple regression are typical methods and they use this. It is a basic stats principle (Field, 2018).
You mentioning that that does it matter why black kids have a lower IQ compared to white kids, and this is where liberals f up is weird lol! First off again I’m not liberal, I am in the middle and have many conservative viewpoints. I just lean liberal here. You mention that the reason doesn’t matter because we should focus on fixing the problem. Further you mention low IQ white communities, which I won’t say too much on because we will have some agreement here. 1. I disagree with labeling the problem, but agree we need to find solutions. I just think understanding the ins and outs of these issues actually helps us find a solution. 2. Many liberal scholars come up with ideas. The problem is politicians on both sides actually don’t understand it, and actively misrepresent their own scholars at times. The media more portrays it as a this or that while there are plenty of scholars on both sides actually trying to find solutions. We just disagree how to get there. That is why identify the problem is often important.
(For Wylted)
Regarding homeschooling, what I said is true because research has been done on this. There are ways to obtain population groups from both subsets via the central limit theorem (Field). So what I am saying isn’t assumed, it’s been tested and shown. Same with the struggles educator go through. Educational researchers have studied and cited struggles through mixed methods research, quantitative research, qualitative research, and quasi experiemental research to determine this (Field, 2018; Myers et al., 2017; Campbell & Stanley 1959). Simply put, this all has been research and I cited scholars to show this as well. You mention IQ being a possible variable and that may be true. The problem with this is that higher IQ is also correlated with socioeconomic standing (Cambridge.org). You ignoring the item I mentioned in regard to making a correlation causation fallacy while saying I am not coming from a tabula rasa way is interesting. I actually demonstrated most claims based on how data and research is conducted to determine knew findings. This is done through various fields and has been proven to be correct even in the hard sciences (Field, 2018; Friedman, 2006). Diverting saying I am not following the tabula rasa way which is “an absence of preconceived ideas or predetermined goals; a clean slate”, is actually crazy. I am citing scholars through in text citations, showing how data works, and research works, while you hand wave away research without presenting much of your own. You typically state it so while I am at least providing in text citations if a reference page was not shown. This means the audience can look up my claims while most of your remains unjustified. The sad thing is, I don’t have predetermined goals because in regard to racial items I use to agree with you until I learned to research. You hand waving away data is a problem that is yours not mine. If I said something wasn’t up to standard it was because the research process that has been proven to work within universities says it’s wrong while I provided citations to back it up. You mentioning genetics is wild because if we wanted to is shown that poor black kids are typically way poorer than poor white kids (Berkley). We see this disparity based on issues such as pay rates based on non college degree/high school graduate data which shows minorities being payed far less despite being at the same education level (Berkeley). Regardless yea you typically don’t have as many behavior issues from poor white people but that is due to a variety of factors such as the incarnation rate which has been high since the civil war ended and caused there to be difficulty when raising kids (Berliner & Hermans, 2022). You had periods like the civil rights times and the war on drug times, which has caused a cycle of youth to see parents locked up (Anamma, 2018). If you have parents locked up it is more likely for you to follow the same footsteps (Anamma, 2018; Fau.edu). I can also back up that minorities are more likely to be punished more harshly for the same behaviors when compared to white people, which can be shown in schools and in the actually prison system (Anamma, 2018; Berliner &Hermans 2022; Berkeley; Michigan law).
(For Wylted) I hate to say it’s unfortunate because you have continued with the same fallacies. To start for IQ data you are not citing research, and just citing regular websites. These are know for errors, and it has been shown peer review is more accurate (Libguides; Friedman 2006). It’s interesting you think you know more than experts. You see meta-analysis is a statistical method used across multiple studies (Myers et al., 2017). If you don’t understand the math I am sorry, but that doesn’t make it wrong. You making stuff in regard to women studies I can’t address simply because that isn’t my area of study, but you still don’t understand how population groups work as described by (Ruel et al., 2017). You have to compare populations based on your research question and the statement was never were teachers the smartest. You citing those majors are simply just comparing two vastly different population groups. Engineers and physicists would be at the top, and is even mentioned with the meta-analysis is cited. Granted you’re still going to say it’s biased somehow even though it has certain aspects which agree with some of your claims, which shows it controls for bias. The original claim was teachers being low IQ and being lower IQ compared to most other degree paths, when it really matches with the average. Of course engineers and physicists will be higher because they are the top of the top. That doesn’t deal with the claim that educators have a lower IQ because research shows otherwise. The problem with your citation not being peer review is it actually leaves off plenty of other fields of study as well, which are even cited below teachers. I’m not making some grand claim like teachers are brilliant, but I can show the claims are false.
(For Wylted) I will hold off on replies to this forum simply because I am debating. If you want a message box discussion or a debate I am willing to go through with it. I simply don’t want to ruin the debate by debating in the comment section as well over my own debate. Hope all is well and I hope your day goes well lol!
That is real interesting. I will add it to my bookshelf at some point. Some good reads as well would be Carter G Woodson’s book “the mis-education of the negro”, and WEB Dubois book called “Soul of Black Folk”. A more modern scholar I love is Jarvis Givens. He I’ve read a lot of his work, but my favorite book of his so far is called school clothes. Thanks for giving me a new book to read lol!
(For Wylted) Again look at my original claim. It would match with it because black history will show negative aspects in the American history. Prager mentioned that certain teachings of black history is causing contempt towards America. This matches with my original comment and what it was trying to convey. You mentioning the nuance of his wording doesn’t show anything because black history is black history. Prager isn’t an expert so he is going to say things extremely untrue. The word anti-white doesn’t change that actual message because the words match a similar message of what I was trying to convey some conservatives as saying. Again this is proven true based on his own words. You mentioning me citing a reporter instead of his bill doesn’t mean anything. This researcher may not have been publishing a study, but when you go to do work for colleges, your work goes through a process to ensure a certain level of accuracy (Ruel et al., 2017). This means that the material is checked by other researchers to ensure that the information is accurate. Researchers can still come to wrong conclusions, because all people are fallible, but they are checked for accurate citations. This can be backed up by numerous others such as ones from Florida A&M, and colleges that are more historically white. Critical race theory is honestly just touted as bad by Fox News when the actual definition is “an academic and legal framework that explicates racism as structural, institutionalized in the history, systems, and policies of the United States. Critical Race Theory recognizes that racism transcends individual bias and prejudice, it is embedded in legal, social, and educational policies and systems that uphold racial inequality” (Sage pub). If you want to debate racism we can, I can show you how all this is true basically lol! Simply put though my original comment matches similar to Prager and my research in regard to policy still stands and is shown to be the norm in research. You actually have more bias towards publishing works in favor of minority causes, which I can site if you like (To eliminate this being a anti conservative thing. There are such things as conservative researchers. I know you didn’t claim this, but I hear this a lot so I am addressing it beforehand lol).
Refrences
https://researchmethodscommunity.sagepub.com/blog/critical-race-theory-fire-and-dangerous-things
(For wylted) So I don’t mean to sound wrong, but it may come off that way, and if it does I am sorry. First of all socioeconomic isn’t “code”. It is considered in research a confounding variable or a sample group depending on how the study is done (Field, 2018; Ruel et al., 2017). In what I was referencing in the previous reply it fits as a confounding variable/covariate (Other explanation of the data). Depending on the type of analysis you run you can involve a confounding variable/covariate (Field, 2018). This would involve poor people of every race within the analysis, but poverty does affect black people more so it would show this in the analysis. Due to the statistical model it would say socioeconomic status would affect many issues, which does happen to correlate with minorities.
On your claim with IQ, I hate to say you are running from your original claims. At first you mentioned that teachers were low IQ, which is shown by the analysis that they weren’t. You also made a claim that it was one of the lowest IQ degrees and I presented a meta analysis of 106 studies to show that this was the average across most college degrees, which means that your claim again was false in regard to it being one of the lowest IQ degrees. Yea you can do what is considered bivariate means comparisons between two different groups, but that doesn’t encompass the whole of college degrees (Fields, 2018; Myers et al., 2017). The analysis of that magnitude would involve about any college degree imaginable. You citing one field that has higher IQ’s doesn’t prove your point because that doesn’t encompass every sample group (Ruel et al., 2017). It also is you retracting on a few different occasions whether you know it or not, because your first claim was low IQ, and your second claim was that they were one of the lowest IQ degree paths. Both were demonstrated as false. Your mentioning homeschooling data doesn’t really show much again due to many things I said already and some additional things I will point out. First off teachers again have to deal with anybody and everybody from IEP kids, behavior kids, kids with home issues, kids with different learning needs, and oversized classrooms (Berliner & Hermans, 2022). You never dealt with any of this because someone homeschooling wouldn’t have this many barriers. You may be able to find someone with one or a couple of these but not all. This is something teachers have to deal with on the regular (I have taught and tutored. The experiences are very different with tutoring being easier, because the kids want to be there and there are less of them. I would kill to teach only one kid. That is a cake walk in most cases). So even though you never actually dealt with the factors or “confounding variables” that would affect teacher performance we can move on to something else in regard to this. First homeschool children and public school children are vastly different population groups. Performance has nothing to do with teaching, but simply has to do with parental involvement, more opportunities due to possible socioeconomic status, and parents having less kids (Fields, 2018; Myers et al., 2017; Berliner & Hermans 2022). I mention this simply because this also effects the school choice movement where private schools perform better than public and some charters perform better than public in some scenarios (It’s about even with charter’s) (Berliner & Hermans 2022; Kalulu et al., 2017) (If someone has more parental involvement and had more resources it’s easier to perform better). Again I’m not trying to sound mean, but you should actually read researchers and read how researchers form methodologies. You are making a lot of correlation causation fallacies without knowing it (This is not meant to be an insult. I’m a researcher/statistician who has actually presented peer review work at Cornell. This reading actually takes a lot to understand so it isn’t a dig. Think of it this way, if someone tried to compare crime in a poor country like Mexico with a richer country like a wealthier European country, one may say that white people are better than minorities in regard to crime based on skin color. That is a correlation causation fallacy similar to what you mentioned. The other explanation would be poverty levels). If you want readings on research methodology, education, statistics, black history, or minority research let me know. I will give you the good bad and ugly from every side. My offer to debate racial issues is still on the table. I may be willing to do something in regard to schools as well. Just let me know instead of us just using a comment thread lol! Anyway nice conversation.
(For Wylted) So I will try to answer as best as I can because I am doing this from my phone. Studies I found show IQ of teachers between the range of 102-115. This would be considered normal IQ average, which will be showed in this citation (science.org) You are wrong about it being one of the lower IQ’s for college degrees, because meta analysis show that the average undergrad IQ is 102 (Science.org) (For those who don’t know what a meta-analysis is, it is essentially a bunch of studies combined into one analysis. It provides extremely reliable results across the literature as seen by Myers et al., 2017). There are obviously differences in sub groups, such as major and specific colleges attended. This does show your comment is a little misinformed because this seems to be the consensus (I won’t say for sure, but just looking today it seems that way). Your comment about “studies trying to paint a narrative around black people shows that you need to read a little more about this”. Researchers such as Berliner & Hermans show that other factors are associated with behavior such as socioeconomic status. This in stats is considered a confounding variable (Field, 2018). (Other explanation for the data). You have researchers such as Annama that say racism is shown in the school system, because you can see minorities punished heavier for the same issues. This is shown in some regard in qualitative and quantitative data (I can show school to prison-pipeline data). You mentioning your IQ and learning disability experience is interesting. I would say it’s more complicated, but from my experience college doesn’t teach gen ed teacher enough about this. I would say I need to view IEP plans to understand better, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that. I had a high IQ but was put in certain classes because I functioned better with little noise on tests. You can be smart and have an IEP. That is a misconception many people have. Your third grade math example is interesting, but is too narrow for me to give an easy answer to. It could be a number of things such as child behavior, the district wanting math taught a certain way (That one is a real pain. They do make math harder than it should be at times), it could be having a diverse set of students (Not everyone learns the same), it could be oversized classrooms (this is worse in poorer schools), or it could be learning disabilities (it does happen). Not everyone is your kid, and that isn’t how science is done. You perform studies with a decent size population so you can generalize the results (Field, 2018; Ruel et al., 2017). If we went with decisions off one person then we would overlook everyone else (Also the teachers have way more students to teach than you would, if you taught your kid). I will note that my school district and my school has improved proficiency in math and reading each year over the past 5 years, so it really depends on the setting and what is going on. One off cases without being in the room are hard to solve.
Refrences
https://www.scienceopen.com/hosted-document?doi=10.14293/S2199-1006.1.SOR.2024.0002.v1
I agree to an extent. More of what I would get at though is black history isn’t taught enough. Our history is whitewashed, and made to not look as bad in many areas. When you read into it, you actually see that slavery was more harsh than what is described in our textbooks (A good read on this is African American historian Jarvis Givens). I won’t go into too much detail because the debate will cover a lot of this. Many items are glossed over in relation to schooling, which affected opportunities for African Americans. We also typically don’t learn a lot about Carter G Woodson (Created black history month), and WEB Dubios (First African American with a PhD. Woodson is the second and he actually was a slave at first). I would say teaching black history of how individuals defied odds and made something for themselves is important and gives individuals in the minority community hope. I could point out too that it helps us show racial tendencies as well, but I don’t want to go too in detail. I do agree about the black history month to some degree if everything was taught equally. I do hope you enjoy the debate lol!
(For Wylted. Idk why it won’t tag you lol). I will say I paraphrased a bit, but you do get comments very similar to this. I will cite you a few conservative talk show people as an example, and how Trump has tried to minimize black history in schools to make it not look as bad. Idk why you have to have exactly one certain talk show host, but I can add comments of his as well. First off I wouldn’t say I’m liberal or conservative because I really go different ways on different issues. To start, talk show conservatives such as Dennis Prager says that we teach an anti-white history with a quote here “The purpose of all teaching about race in American schools is to engender contempt for America. They are, therefore, "taught" the lies of The New York Times' "1619 Project" — that the United States was founded to preserve and protect slavery — and of such works as Robin DiAngelo's "White Fragility”. (Creators.com). Contempt for America is implying that we are diminishing something within American history against what is taught. There is more to this article, and more to say in response to this article because he does try to defend his claims. I’m not going to argue about his other claims at this time unless you want to be the one who signs the debate thing here lol! Then we can go at it in regard to arguments about how black history is taught. When you actually read though, history is very white washed, and individuals like Trump tried to actually keep it this way. In Trump’s first term he tried to pass the patriot education act, which minimized slavery in to calling slaves just “workers”. (Penne 2020). This actually downplays how harsh slavery actually was (I will make these arguments more in my opening. I would rather not reveal my first moves lol). Again if you want to debate black history accept the debate or I can replicate this debate for you to accept. Either way doesn’t bother me because I love the conversations. Now in regard to what you mention I gave the citations needed for the message I was actually trying to convey. The founding father things was paraphrased because I was relaxing late at night, but conservatives do feel that black history is taught in a way that is against the ideals of America and you have policy makers who make decisions within that same sort of framework (This does make my founding father thing make sense though, because they are touted as the brave individuals who fought for freedom. Claims with racial items hurts this view, and this is without me saying too much negatively. I don’t necessarily dislike the founding fathers, but if you look at how they viewed slaves it was wrong. We can all learn from individuals past mistakes). If we want to move to Ben Shapiro we can, but it isn’t really necessary. Shapiro is more nuanced than prager, and I wouldn’t say he specifically makes these stamens like prager, but he does downplay slavery. An example of this is a speech that he gave titled, America was not built on slavery. You can do what you want with this claim and I could again argue that this isn’t the best claim to make, but I will leave it at that. Shapiro says more things like “But those who are determined to see America’s story as a continuing story of oppression, those determined to paint America’s history as an eternal story of brutality and slavery, rather than as a struggle toward freedom and equal rights in concert with the original founding principles of the country, suggest that slavery remains the defining feature of American life.” (Bu.edu). I would disagree because we can prove racism heavily in our society today, and past issues from slavery impact black people to this day. If you would want to debate if racism affects the U.S. heavily I can do that as well because that is my most debated topic. My point was that their are plenty of politicians that frame talking about black history as being against actual American ideals, which can be seen if you watch numerous people on the right side of the isle. Also I will comment on your other comments that you left about teaching and I do actually enjoy the back and forth (On another thread). I’m just cooking a mean Philly cheesesteak right now lol! It’s just that my point does stand when you view policy and certain talk show people. If you thought I was being specific with my claim I wasn’t. It was just late, and I made a more general statement, which is really still backed up.
Refrences
https://www.creators.com/read/dennis-prager/11/20/what-american-schools-should-teach-about-race-racism-and-slavery
https://news.utexas.edu/2020/10/24/patriotic-education-is-a-whitewashing-of-history/
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/ben-shapiro-at-boston-university/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%2520title%2520of%2520the%2520event,a%2520good%2520university%2520is%2520about.%E2%80%9D
It’s changed if you want to do it. Tell me what you think and I can revise if necessary. I am at a conference so I just did this real quick. I’m off now so I should be able to respond quicker lol!
Honestly I can’t speak to say I know for sure, but I don’t think it is a rush. Honestly I’ve dated kind women too, who just never worked out. I stayed friends with many of them, despite never ending up with them. Honestly I just stuck to searching for women who had the goals I mentioned before. Eventually if you keep doing that you will find her. You also need to be kind but strong and up front as well. There is no need to be a “bad boy”, to get a girl. Women from my experience like if I guy stands up for what they believe in (There is a way to stand up if something is wrong or if you feel your significant other does some stuff. You can create an environment where she can do this too. Fighting is part of relationships and it is how you move forward. Now don’t fight over every little thing, but normalize talking. It solves a lot of problems. I see a lot of unhappy marriages where someone bottles emotions in the whole time). I mentioned living for you a lot because I feel like I failed on this for a while. I work extremely hard. As a teacher alone you are given a lot of task not many see, and during the school year, teaching can be like working more than one job. Additionally I coached sports, refereed games, and worked after school care to earn extra money for school. Along with this I drive an hour and a half to my college because they are one of the best in regard to research (I am shooting for one day getting out of teaching and working in a research field. There is no money in teaching and the people in charge don’t care about teachers in many settings. Our education system is going to suffer in the long turn because of this). I love my job even though I am trying to leaves, because I view that education as Horace Mann says can be the great equalizer in helping people be successful. I work with a lot of troubled youth and work a lot behind the scenes creating after schools groups in what spar time I get to work with them. Hopefully be a light they typically don’t see on a normal basis. With all that I noticed from the sheer amount of work I was doing, I wasn’t spending as much time with my wife (It’s summer now so I can make it up, but I won’t make that mistake again). Doing that made her upset at times, because life was work. There are plenty of teachers like me, but we are starting to leave. What remains are teachers who don’t care, and the few good ones can’t kill ourselves to lift the schools up alone (Part of me almost wants to give up the six figure job to be a college professor. As much as I want money, I signed up to help a cause which is failing in my state). Trying to pick up where most people would refuse to help, caused me to miss valuable time with family. If I could go back I would. I unfortunently can’t, so I can just move forward. From now on I gave up all my side jobs and my only side thing will be school (I’m halfway done. I am too far in to give that up). My eyes opened when I heard the new that I will be having a kid, because I don’t want to miss any part of there life.
(For Wylted. It won’t let me tag him lol! It says not active). The only thing you are right about is that teachers don’t get paid a lot. That’s why I’m obtaining a PhD and getting a higher paying job within the school system. I can actually make a good bit of money doing this, and my PhD program can actually get me high paying jobs outside of the school system as well (career transition. I can actually make six figures if I play my cards right when I finish). Umm to the low IQ and summers off, it’s seems that you don’t know what you are talking about. Teaching is honestly an art form, and to be good at it, you have to be able to teach students of all different needs from behavioral issues, IEP kids (I specifically teach visually and hearing impaired kids, along with cognitive issues), ethnic differences, and kids without parents. This actually gets quite hard, which is why teachers are leaving the field. Not to mention discipline issues can be out of control. I actually choose to work in an area that has rougher students due to economic issues there family faces, so I can be a parental figure. Yes we get summers off, but it is about needed. I basically work two jobs to help pay for school, and my teaching job does often keep me doing work late at night to provide for the students. Honestly I’ve put a full years work in by the end of summer anyway lol! As someone who has worked full year round before and taught, working full year round is actually easier to me. This is due to all the challenges teachers face during the school year, which actually cause more stress compared to jobs I worked full year round. Maybe before saying something, you should actually research the teaching field. There are plenty of studies that back up many of my claims in regard to the difficulty of teaching and why many teachers are trying to find different careers (Many of these are work full year around jobs. Compared to what teaching is becoming I will probably transition to this once I graduate lol! Also if you want some actual reading on this from experts let me know).
Ok. Well carry on lol
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or for real lol! Seen so many interesting people on the internet it becomes difficult at times lol!
Really depends. I could probably change the topic to is history whitewashed or something. This is more though a debate about whether black history should be implemented in schools. If you read a lot of black history you see not much is taught under the black perspective. You get more conservative people who claim that teaching more on the black perspective is wrong because “It is making the founding fathers look bad”. Some people may not quite understand the implications behind actions they do. If this is a crappy title I will revise it to more of a history/policy debate on if history taught in schools is white washed lol! I’ve just heard some conservatives argue against black history being taught in public schools, which was why this was done.
I’m still trying to figure my life out, but I am 28 (About to be 29). Truth is I think nobody ever has it life out as a whole. Even though I have worked hard I am still broke, despite accomplishing a decent amount. I am currently a teacher who is happily married to my wife (The only woman I ever loved). I am halfway through my PhD program in educational research at the University of Southern Mississippi (This is one reason I’m broke. Trying to provide a better life for my family and future family due to planning to become a dad. What shocked me is that it is close around the corner and wasn’t planned). I’ve worked hard, and have spoke at Universities for teacher conferences and peer review research (My top conference was presenting at Cornell. Not bad for a someone from Alabama). Even though I am trying to learn myself, there is a lot I have learned from the past which keeps me moving. 1. Work hard, but don’t overwork yourself. This is hard especially if you want to be successful, but I learned slowing down is important. Especially if you have family (memories with people you care about are important). 2. Don’t let people discourage your aspirations. Now, you do want to be someone who does something that can provide for yourself (A stable career maybe). I mention this to say, that when I started my journey in working to obtain my PhD people downplayed my intelligence. It’s true that I am not the smartest, but people would say that if I can make it anyone can (There are plenty more. I just tune them out). Halfway through this program I am currently in the running to graduate with the highest average (I’ve maintained a 4.0 this whole time through hard work). 3. If you want to get married, find someone with similar values, someone who has goals, and someone who is driven to accomplish those goals (Usually people that have good values and work hard are more likely to be dedicated to a relationship). Before I went on my first date with my wife, I thought that I found this woman who was amazing. She was pretty, and all the guys liked her. Come to find out, she wasn’t a good person and I had to end it, which did hurt me (I dated for looks, not character. She could be a cool person now, but that is so far removed that I don’t think about it now). Fast forward months later I went on a date with another beautiful woman who had the characteristics mentioned above. Eight years later we have been together this long. This includes three years of marriage with our first Child on the way (The mistakes from the previous relationship were actually when I was 20, so it is in the time frame mentioned. I met my wife at 21). If you want to ask anything feel free. Asking about this at such a young age means you are probably ahead of a lot of people. I use to just think of drinking whiskey and chasing woman at that age (Ironically I never did a good job hitting on them. They just came to me if I’m being honest. Not that what I did then was right lol!)
Yea I was about to say, I’m honestly cool wherever this ends up lol! It was a good debate, which is why everyone is scoring it pretty close. Lol we may have to debate again at some point, but on a different subject to change it up lol! Either way it was fun lol! It was good to share the debate stage with you lol!
You’ve given some good advice in both my recent debates. I’m going to finish reading your one on DEI. I do like the suggestions from both debates. I will read and keep it in mind for the future.
Is it more a suggestion to switch tactics lol? I’m not asking that to be wrong, I typically don’t debate, so this is new. The approach in terms was to point how stats can predict these things based on the model, but I do actually see how that is hard to convince the audience. Before I became a researcher/statistician I would have probably not understood as well. I’m basically not trying to argue in the comments but more wondering if I talked past the audience and my opponent lol! If so I may revise a little in the future lol!
You know I disagree, but might I say your name is cool as all get out lol! The gear in the profile? Are you an Indiana Jones fan lol? I’m asking because those are like my favorite movies ever lol! Regardless, glad you enjoyed the debate lol!
Thanks! I may be back at it again in a week or two. I need a break after school. I may do a topic such as school choice, technology in school, is high stakes testing best for society schools, or I may do a religious debate. I haven’t done that in ages lol!
Ok! It honestly was a good debate. I think no matter what side you take it is a worth while interaction.
I’m putting a comment in case someone wants to vote lol! The timer is about to end on it lol!
Point taken lol! I’m a researcher so I don’t debate often. We also try to pack a lot in one area (Examples are lit review sections of articles). I am mainly doing this to read for a new research study I am thinking about publishing. Anyway good debate!
Good debate!
If I don’t get the chance to say it good debate lol! We disagree but I appreciate you read a lot lol! I’m slow with replies due to grad school so I will eventually be there (I have to drive almost two hours for my PhD class in multivariate analysis. That typically takes it out of me for the week because I work two jobs as well lol)! Anyway best of luck in the future and I’m sure we may debate again if you ever want. This experience has been fun lol!
Ok man! I do think this is a pretty good debate so sure. I like that it is at least getting views lol!
My bad! I didn’t know really! I’m pretty easy going so I was worried about taking off lol! You did good. I hope to debate you at some point on something lol!
I am about to send my next reply, but I do want to put something in the comments for my opponent and the audience to see. We are of course pretty contrasting in styles which I am cool with and I am enjoying the discussion. Debate is spirited and I actually don’t take anything said to be mean spirited lol (We may spar a little more with words in this lol)! I know I of course critique my opponent with sources, but I do want to say I am not accusing someone of purposely saying something to be misleading. I will let my reply speak for itself, because I don’t want to make arguments in the comment section (I don’t think that would be right). I just want my opponent to know, that even though I make strong claims with certain things with citations, it is more because I actually conduct research with it, or I have some form of background (Things such as stats and research methodology is hard. I am a PhD student in educational research and stats is my strongest background and I still make plenty of mistakes lol!) My research at the moment is limited to Charter school segregation, so I am really still a student of the game in many aspects (Idk if my article will get published. I spoke at Cornell about it, and it was good enough for that but I am new to the publishing process lol). The interesting thing is the more I learn is the more I find out I have way more to learn. Anyway I look forward to by opponents reply!
I have my reply ready, minus the reference page made. I am just waiting because I need to post a reply in my other debate and I am focused on my homework for a grad school class lol!
I am looking forward to this, my reply won’t be until later in the week due to me being in grad school. I do this for fun on the side lol!
I may be willing to debate this topic with you in the future. I think we are polar opposites on this issue lol!
If anyone is interested, after this debate ends I may do something similar with some differences. I may do a history one like “Was slavery in the U.S. a racist practice (I do know some who say that it wasn’t)”, or I may do “Is the removal of DEI, beneficial”? I may work out the kinks in the meantime lol!
I like the argumentation so far. I like that you cite a lot of items too!
I think I will have my first argument done by today or tomorrow. If not it will be Monday, school is just beating me up lol!
Welcome debate opponent! I may or may not be quick with this, because I am working two jobs and I am in grad school. I am mainly doing this for fun, and I look forward to our interaction.
Yea I get what you mean with that. I did think about it. Part of the reason I didn’t was because to my experience individuals who lean right vs. individuals who lean left will have different terms for it. An example of this, would be institutional racism where many individuals on the right wouldn’t think of it as racism. Part of the battle would be showing how it is. I did have this debate a little over a year ago and the definition of terms was interesting (He was nice in the debate though lol!) Many behavioral science concepts will have differing definitions in how things work depending on the construct in question. That is solid advice though. It may be something I use in the future, like I may argue in this way and it would be acceptable for the opponent to say that this wouldn’t be racist.
I may take you up on that if possible in a couple days. I want to first say I am sorry for the late reply. I am a PhD student in educational research and I had a big project due in my quantitative analysis 2 class. I did not want to say no, so I just waited until I finished the project before I would accept. One of my education classes has an assignment due on multicultural education, so let me finish that and I should be ready by tomorrow or Monday if you are up for it.
I think the only area we disagree is abortion due to me being religious and viewing it as a life. Typically though I understand why it happens and that the decision is difficult on the mother at the time. That and I feel like even though I lean to the right on this issue, many individuals who are pro life aren’t pro life for the whole life. Trans issues I agree (I was the only religious person in my family that believed it was not our right to say these people couldn’t get married and they deserved equal rights). Corporal punishment for children I agree. Mass child circumcision we agree. The other two I don’t know what they are to know enough about lol! I would rather be honest on that lol!
We may have too many similarities to go with this debate now that I have read a little more into your definition/opening statement from your other debate (it’s my fault for half reading while at a family member’s house.) I fit more in the socialist camp, so our biggest dispute would be on property, is this system possible, and is there too much government control in this system. So I guess I will bow out and let someone else take the reins lol!
Ok! I found it and will read it. From what I can see so far I may be willing to debate this unless someone snags it from me first. Based on what I am reading so far, I think that we have some differences along with some similarities which may make it worth while. I asked the weird question on the outset because I didn’t want to misrepresent anything if I accept.
This debate is interesting and I may accept if I have time to ponder it. I am an independent, so I have a lot of liberal ideologies along with some conservative. I may accept this because we debated before and I enjoyed our conversation. If I do we may have some things we agree on a decent amount because I have some liberal ways of thinking. My question while I ponder is are you defending communism like how China is, or is there some differences. I am asking because if we do debate I don’t want to strawman positions by accident.
This is an interesting topic! As someone who is an independent I am not sure where I fall on this. I am not sure about the $500 a month thing, but we are grossly underpaid unless you are rich. I am a teacher with my master’s degree and I am going for my PhD. Even with all that I make peanuts and I barely afford to live in a one bedroom apartment. That will change soon because my wife is about to be done with nursing school, but my point is that if someone who should be considered middle class is struggling, imagine the poorer classes. I am not sure where I lie on this one and I can’t wait to read it! One thing is for sure, most of the middle/poorer classes aren’t paid enough.
Yea I understand that! Nobody will agree 100% and I am doing this to grow more as a person and possibly change my mind on some items. Also I didn't put this in my reply, but their is more than one GCU article.
You are good! I probably could have done some things better as well. With this being written we can't really tell what we are thinking all the time. My accusations from this could have been wrong, I just have never interacted with you until now so I don't know you. I have had some discussions where I face off against YEC and some where I have debated individuals who deny racism effects the US still. Many of them lie about their sources so I typically review my opponents sources first (Nothing personal, just interacted with some weird people in the past lol). You are actually my first atheist opponent, because my degree doesn't deal with religion mainly research/stats. Before I type my response I will put I understand why you have argued the way you have argued on some points. Especially with homosexuality, because when I was in High school I was Christian, but felt the US should allow gay marriage because religion should hold no bounds over the law. Living in Alabama, I was about ostracized from my religious friends for holding that view (I no longer have those friends). Even worse I have actually seen some people in my state advocate for the the death of these people, so I argue with a lot of individuals who lie and are hateful (I had this interaction on a different debate site and I was livid by my opponents statements). I have looked at some of your debates recently and I think more often than not, we would find ourselves on the same team with political debates, just not religious. Nothing you have said has made me mad, I am just an uptight researcher who has dealt with a lot of crazy people and I have enjoyed this interaction even though my statements seem a bit pushy at times. Honestly it is refreshing to me to debate someone who cares about the struggle of others. I would find myself closer to you then some Christians I have dealt with (No hate towards Christians, because I am one).