Total posts: 147
Cool out!
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@K_Michael
based on your sad display here, as much as I think you're chill as fk I'm forced to balance your iconic upbeat version of despondancy with another version of life reflected is so many automatons we may meet. Not all are lucky enough to play piano... there's a real horror show:
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@EtrnlVw
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@mustardness
Religion is tool box to manipulate the moral substrate and principles to aid the humans to be my clans every day view of life experiences.
Fix'd
Only fking with you because you gave religion morality, ie the steering wheel, to them. Time for everyone to take that shit back.
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@K_Michael
My current opinion on automatic actions is that they can solidify in your mid twenties and may be well established at 18. It's harder and harder not to wake up and become conscious several times a year but I'm going for daily events realizing it's extremely easy to rarely become conscious.
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I'm just going to assert that virtually all actions are determined by personal incentives. To advance here you move to an understanding that your family has a large impact on you and to support that community is practical. From there you can see that your community can be extended to a lesser degree from family to local community to culture to ultimately being human. I think this has been firmly established in the more hardened social sciences. I'm a big fan of social economists for instance.
You can apply a natural empathy to see others struggles as the same as your own and be more inclined to help a stranger/s with some spare time or resources.
I do not think we will ever get to a point where we can care for others like we do for ourselves and that would be an attempt to deny what it is to be a semi conscious animal on earth. It's not wrong to be what you are.
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@K_Michael
Sure, but I guess it boils down to what you think of as yourself. Is it the automatic routines you run through everyday or your conscious observation and limited control you exercise over this machine.
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@EtrnlVw
Why? what do you mean by that? I know you were taught that but the point I'm making is that it's not necessary even in religious squares.
There are several middle ground typical positions. Again, my belief in evolution occurred about 3 years after my lapse in a belief in God. It did not cause me to be an atheist. Applying the same standards of evidence I applied to everything else led me to a lack of belief in God.
Not sure I understand what this has to do with what I wrote.Not all Theists assert or assume there was no process (evolution) involved.
I mean I understand that many fundamentalist christians slowly reject the most absurd miracles and ideas in the bible becoming more and more reasonable rather than taking a few weeks of honesty and concluding there was likely no God as it happened for me.
But, there's still many aspects left in spirituality for you to experience and explore.
Yes, for me prayer worship in reality is just meditation when looked at objectively. A daily walk with God equals mindfulness. I would call that spiritual because it is exactly and produces the same results in me as avid religious practice did for so many years. Therefore I call it spiritual because it is the same practice with more truth.
You seem to draw an imaginary line between faith and the study of evolution and while you are certainly allowed to do that, again it's not necessary. There isn't just faith and then evolution, the two can be compatible because they focus on entirely different aspects of our observation. Again, faith isn't just beliefs, it's a spiritual element consisting of trust and confidence and even a Theist might not have any faith. Faith is an action, it allows the user to overcome obstacles in their life
The line is clear for me. I apply the best level of skepticism I can to evolution and God. I've concluded that evolution occurred and is occurring and that there is no reason to concluded that a creator exists or that a powerful being interfered.
I understand the role of faith but lets not make an equivocation fallacy. I have faith in individuals that they will behave as they have in the past. I have no observations with respect to a god and have concluded that any communication was due to a confirmation bias or just positive self talk. There was never a God to observe to develop a faith in.
Excellent, so what's the problem?? if you accept it, then you know the nature of consciousness, which is the same as the soul, which opposes materialism...inanimate matter can never produce conscious beings
You've asserted that matter cannot create consciousness. We observe the creation of an egg and sperm from atoms to molecules based on predictable, energetically efficient reactions. Then we observe these cells grow over nine months to form a brain that produces the effect of consciousness.
There is no reason to suspect that consciousness is completely separate from the observable, natural, physical process that creates the effect. We know for certain that inanimate matter creates it. we can observe virtually every natural reaction amongst matter that creates our biological computer.
Well unfortunately that is impossible, because spirituality is the practice and observation of the reality that transcends the physical sense perception. And because it's an objective reality it has to be acknowledged for it to have any influence on you. Otherwise it's just a meaningless term. You can be methodological and spiritual, but not a materialist or an atheist and spiritual because the two terms are conflicting.
If you would like to define me as separate and opposed to your world view by definition you can. What I'm telling you is that the well being created by my secular practice is the same as my religious practice except that I have been more successful in attaining what I would have called 'spiritual' before now.
If you want to define spiritual as something that is not material you have a large burden of proof to establish that this exists. No one has ever been able to.
Maybe your own beliefs at the time were confirmation bias (because maybe they were immature, having no experiential grounding), however if you are observing and examining spirituality from an objective, rational viewpoint then that is not necessary. Again, I find it funny that Theistic beliefs always get labeled "conformation bias" when in reality it applies the same way with materialism and naturalism.
Materialists can prove that the natural exists so they say that it does exist. They cannot prove that a supernatural exists so they say that they have not reason to believe that such a thing exists.
How is this view exercising confirmation bias and what better way to view the natural and supernatural could they adopt?
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@TheRealNihilist
In your terms I thought my first comments were a reductio ad absurdem. You could not ever get rid of poverty in a realistic way. It will always be relative. It's like trying to make everyone exactly the same. If the end of poverty were the goal the most basic attempt may be to kill the poor people or the rich. Only then the differences between who is left would be emphasized and you would end up with some income inequality. Everyone just decides what is reasonable to them because it is not going away unless you are an advocate of extinction.
I can't really gauge very well if it isn't blatant and I am pretty annoyed as is.
I thought that suggesting outright that we kill all poor people to amend poverty was blatantly ridiculous.
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@K_Michael
I doubt I'll fully agree with my own statement but it's an idea I'm exploring, we can likely throw out the word 'all' and replace it with 'a lot' but mindfulness and meditation (foundational in eastern religions) explore the death of the ego. In reality we have verified the obvious. We are biological puppets. Meditation is the best way I have found to observe the strings. A lot of thoughts come and go like, just like sounds, emotions or events outside our control, largely dictated by experience and DNA. Being a biological machine means our actions are automatic in a dramatic way.
I tend to think that most people, including myself, walk through life like zombies repeating patterns of behavior we have been spoon fed or were naturally inclined to. We do not stop to consider the pc in our heads going through these automatic routines.
Deeper, even when we can have real moments of awareness, where we can question all of our automation and thoughts what was really self directed even in that event. I happened to listen to some podcast with Russel Brand that inspired me to take my meditation to a new level that inspired me to learn to be more conscious of my own fundamental core beliefs and awareness.
When did I make that decision, what level of planning was involved in the sharp change, wasn't this just built on Nurture/nature without much involvement from something I would call a goal directed, thoughtful self?
The suffering as well as perhaps the best moments of happiness are often connected to this illusion. I've found more satisfaction recently in simply observing my automatic actions and trying to make small changes when possible. Accepting myself as largely automatic and enjoying the simple ability of observation of my consciousness rather than identifying myself as the 40,000 random thoughts that enter my consciousness on a daily basis along with the flickering emotional echos.
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@Alec
Ok, some do advocate extinction but I have never heard advocates of killing the poor or very rich but I'm sure they're out there. I'm not one of them.
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@IlDiavolo
I'm not pointing to any higher being. I'm just putting in the table all the possibilities as to how evolution could occur, which includes panspermia theory. I'm opened to several possibilities because, as I said, doubt is good and only idiots are absolutely sure. So, what I was trying to say in this topic is that natural selection and random mutation have ridiculous flaws to explain evolution, and scientists must rethink it in other way, considering other theories and viewpoints that also try to explain evolution.Moreover, I don't think reading only a book would help you in understanding such a complex and controversial topic. This attitude only makes you have a myopic view of evolution. It's almost a religious attitude and this only book you've read your bible.Just so you know, long time ago I've read a theory that stated cells have a sort of intelligent that give them abilities to do "things", like for example evolve for themselves. It was crazy, but possible.
The book overwhelmed the information I had to change my view. I've since done more research but you do not need to be an expert to have an opinion. All my opinions are tentative but I would say at this point this is a well established theory, more than many and perhaps most, that I strongly agree with.
Ok sure, it's rare you see someone disagreeing with evolution apart from faith.
What ridiculous flaws are you referring to?
Cells are much too small to demonstrate any intelligence in my view based on what I know about brains. I'm convinced based on the evidence that natural selection easily explains evolution but abiogenesis has not made a lot of headway. For me there is no reason to suspect alien cells or any other outside influence at this point. Self replicating rna strands are fairly easy to envision and we see a mechanism for purely chemical replication is cell division. If we had cells that reproduce they were competing for resources and various selection pressures would apply at that point which is essentially enough to convince me that this is the likely mechanism that lead to the first cell and the start of evolution: self replicating molecules that were subject to selection pressures.
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm kidding and I don't advocate the extinction of the human race as a solution to poverty. Didn't mean to be a downer.
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@TheRealNihilist
No. Poor is dependent on what you mean by it. If it is a percentage of the population doing worse than the working class then eventually when you k*ll them off the working class will be apart of that then you k*ll them of the middle class would have to be k*lled off.
All right you've got me. Lets just do the noble thing and walk arm and arm to extinction.
So it wasn't that not everyone got a tax cut instead the rich?
Well that did suck but I think this was a heavily pushed talking point that was not entirely accurate. I'm not really qualified to look at it and establish an opinion so I have to glean what I can from economists. My takeaway, from what I have been able to glean, is that it will, likely, encourage job growth and will ultimately generate more tax revenue from the largest companies that are currently evading all taxes. These massive tax plans are always a gamble. You can't exactly have multiple trial runs in a lab and what we can observe from other countries is tempered by major differences. I don't get the impression we will know for five years.
The news I watch is often biased to the left. I trust myself to understand the horrendous facts I do about Trump who cares only works for himself and his wealth. He was hired to run the government not twist the government to his maniacal, crazy whims. This is clear by facts even when I catch them getting heavily slanted toward the liberal end of the spectrum.
Large tax bills are another story. I'm not going to read it and I would not understand the impact if I did. I trust economists here over any news media outlet and really I'd prefer an objective, expert outside source for everything but that's just not practical.
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@TheRealNihilist
Yeah, I guess killing all the poor people was more realistic. I'll agree. My main objection to the Trump tax plan is that they did not trim the budget in an effort to pay for it and it is creating massive deficits. It's still sort of a gamble but there's enough quibbling over small issues amongst economists that I have a sense that it is positive as far as attracting big business assets back to the states and allowing exemptions on R&D for example. The tax avoidance issue got out of control and Obama was working toward a solution but never got there. The high taxes on business are borne by mid and low level companies while larger companies are more mobile and just moved their taxable assets overseas.
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@Alec
Yeah, I'm kidding and I don't really know what I think about this 1% issue currently. I used to be for all out unrestricted capitalism. I guess that's ideal but then I see that the rich buy laws and power to keep them rich and keep competition out. So many lobbyists and companies are anti market.
Bill gates is not a philanthropist. Guess who runs his foundation and uses it to pressure those organizations it donates to in order to influence policy in their favor? Bill and Melinda Gates. This is a very common way for the rich to claim to be philanthropists... personally I don't believe such a thing exists. Also guess what? All that money is stacked up into a foundation fund and they choose the successors, likely their kids, who will not have to have actual talent because they have used their resources to stack the deck legally in favor of keeping the company thriving even if they are stagnant internally.
Can't help but notice you did not react to my joke about killing all the poor people. I was kidding again but I do have to ask you; is there any level of wealth inequality you would find intolerable? Keep in mind these large booms in wealth are normally generated by a fluke opportunity and chance (this is true of Bill Gates who reached the 10,000 hour level of expertise in programming before anyone else other than the apple people and a few others) not genius and hard work and then maintained by buying a lot of lobbyists to enact laws in your favor.
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@TheRealNihilist
Well an author I recently discovered discusses this describing the brain as a rider and an elephant. The part of you that you think of as yourself is the rider. All the automatic parts are the elephant... which tends to go where it wants so you really have to befriend you elephant which may sound strange until you realize you do not live in an apartment, house etc. You live in an ape.
We're virtually programmed to listen to authority before the age of around 7. This is good because you may not understand what 'stove hot' even means really but you get the warning and do not forget it. It works fairly well accept this is the mechanism through which indoctrination often takes hold. Also the whole you can't reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.
Change is possible. Avoiding confirmation bias is possible. It's just extremely hard. People can apply reason to these non rational areas it's just very difficult and may not even be worth it for someone to give up comforting beliefs. Just imagine admitting you had an imaginary friend, actually a version of yourself that you have been talking to for years. It takes a lot of time to admit that to yourself.
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@TheRealNihilist
I'll take a look later at the questions. Sticking with an anime theme until I get one that suits me now.
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@EtrnlVw
I see that you do not get along with him and I won't color my opinion based on that. I take great pains to be objective and I likely understand faith based positions more than many I see on this site.And ignore the troll following me around
I am saying that I think your faith impacts your view of evolution and likely everything but that's just at a glance. Would you say this is true?
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes, maybe I'm too generius, and I'm not sure the type that would gravitate toward this site to preach would be impacted at all by the arguments presented but remember the U.S. is still 80% Christian to varying degrees. Britain, Australia and of course the islamic world have varying levels of intensity in faith from causing problems in their political systems to being outright theocracies. Most children in the world are still getting echos of faith if not outright indoctrination.
This is why this type of discussion is still good. You never know who may be so heavily indoctrinated as to believe that God must have intervened in evolution at some level or even that god created the world outright.
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@EtrnlVw
One doesn't have to accept 6 day creation to be a Theist, that's just a matter of individual interpretation.
I realize this but I skipped this step. I've watched people slowly lean away from the most absurd claims to the horrendous commands god issues but it wasn't like that for me.
Not all Theists assert or assume there was no process (evolution) involved.
Yes, I was of the fundamentalist variety but I have been exposed to a variety of this type of moderate apologetics since I am still very interested in faith and how it originates and affects our society.
Why did you give up on spirituality just because you read a book on evolution? In order for there to be creation there must be a process of getting it there. When you study a secular source they are just looking at the physical side of things. They can't observe that it's the Creator who manipulates energy, particles and elements which we observe through things evolving and the isolation of energy to create form.
I didn't. This is a trope often assumed but I didn't even bother to look at evolution till around 3 years afterward. I described somewhere else that I have now finally captured the good that I found in religion and I tentatively accept ideas about the self, consciousness etc proposed by eastern religions and they do line up with the current understanding of the brain. I practice mindfulness on a regular basis and experience what I would have referred to as the holy spirit when I was ignorant.
If there you can be both spiritual and a methodological naturalist I am that. Yes, things that no one can observe I don't believe in. If you observe god in your personal life so did I. If you pray and read your bible and experience god in every aspect of your life I did too. I now call that confirmation bias and the bliss of mindfulness in your life.
Prayer studies would be a good start to confirm a god and they have all failed. You are claiming that god intervened in reality, particularly evolution and that can be observed by science. Is that the end or do you believe god intervenes in your life? If so that is intervention into the natural world which could be observed by science. Where is your evidence for that?
Why didn't you apply the same standards to your faith? as long as you fully comprehend the nature of Theism and spirituality everything else IS the same, but with spirituality we are dealing with existence that transcends the physical sense perception. What was your faith? if it was your beliefs that you no longer agree with you're not obligated or required to accept them, however you didn't have to give up on the whole idea and throw in the towel. You simply put your faith in what makes sense and what you can relate to. Not everything we are taught in religion is correct, but, there certainly is an objective reality that transcends this one. So spirituality, which is the process of learning who and what you truly are is well worth the pursuit. You just have to get with sources that know what they are talking about.
I see that you're claiming you apply the same standard of evidence required when you make all other belief decisions to your faith. I do not believe that is possible and my faith ended quickly when I was honestly able to do that. It took a few years to get honest with myself and involved separating myself from the constant affirmation of a church. I was a fundamentalist evangelical christian for many years and changing brought more suffering than I thought possible so I can understand why people are hesitant to undertake the task.
I was the source that knew what they were talking about for many people.
Just as a side note, spiritual faith is not just about believing in things for no reason and with no evidence, that plays no role in spirituality. Faith is trust and confidence, and trust and confidence are developed. In order to have confidence and trust in something there must be reason, evidence and experience to do so. So don't trick yourself, you were never required to believe in things you had no confidence and trust in. But change your beliefs, spirituality is an enormous arena, so don't just give up. See and understand what is worth pursuing and ask questions here.
Ok, what reasons and evidence establish your faith? This is probably worth another topic in the personal area but you won't find me uninformed on the topic of personal faith since I learned about it from the inside out and have researched the topic.
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@EtrnlVw
I will respond later but honestly several years ago I approached the evolution topic completely undecided as an adult. The evidence was so compelling that I was immediately sold. It's hard to think that faith is not the key element in resistance to what is perhaps one of the most well established theories in science. Simply no good reason to believe there was outside intervention at any point.
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@TheRealNihilist
Probably because many years ago I may have tried to take the same position as he does. What cured me is a simple question. Why don't I apply the same standards of evidence to my faith that I do to everything else? That was the beginning of the end of it.
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@IlDiavolo
We are not discussing if evolution ocurred, we assume this is true. What we are discussing though is the mechanisms that made evolution happen.You might have noticed some people here still believe in Saint Charles Darwin and his prophecies. I was also taught about it in the school but something inside me told me there was something wrong about it. So I suggest you to read the whole story and not just what the status quo states. Nothing is written in a stone.
The evidence overwhelmed me even after a single book is what I am saying. The observed facts and predicted side effects of the mechanisms involved. Anyone who seriously makes these claims I would normally say they simply need to read a book or two.
You, however, are leaning on an argument that seems similar to a 'god/alien of the gaps' argument. You are objecting perhaps more to abiogenesis or life before the first cell. On this there is not a lot of great experimentation published. Enough to convince myself particularly since, as Stronn pointed out. There is no evidence that a mind intervened. We know that from one cell humans can form in nine months via natural processes. A self replicating molecule is entirely likely the original start. From there it would just need environmental/selection pressures to change for the better.
There is no need at this point to point to a higher being to initiate this.
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We could just kill 8 to reduce poverty by half which may be more sensible than my first plan. Bezos being one.
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@TheRealNihilist
I see. Well I can only say that I was not at all trying to be mean. If this is how you saw it I apologize.
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@TheRealNihilist
A joke is something you may do, especially in this context, to ingratiate yourself to others. I tried to lighten the mood because I was slightly self conscious that your comment was obvious so I just announced that fact so we could laugh about it.
Making fun of someone targets them to attempt to lower them to make yourself look taller and is exploitive to increase your own position. Not something I do.
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes, keen was a reversal since your statement was obvious. I was not making fun of you. Just making a joke.
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@TheRealNihilist
Keen observation mister omar. Very keen.
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@coal
well I do not normally but I've been traveling so much between two locations it's that the frustration is intense and a new thing I'm dealing with. It is a waste of energy but that doesn't change the feels.
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@coal
I wonder. My family was just not violent, pacifists you might say. Were you exposed to violence growing up at all?
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O.O. Interesting. So wanting to beat someone down is a challenge that may come up in a normal day.
I'd have to think about it to remember the last time it came up for me... I do struggle with road rage but I just flick the person off then I'm done.
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@coal
Have you ever back handed someone in the face? If not was there a situation where you really wanted to or thought someone deserved it?
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Dudz Is supporting a PP contest... If he has a Trump tape to go with it I'll join and suffer through whatever it is.
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@RationalMadman
Yes, but you provided the response that benefited me. I guess I'll be back shortly to post my inspirational colored lines that circulate!
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To elaboroate tho what are the color options i'll deal with to cycle around my profile?! A black light line seams Apt but I'm guessing yo don't do that.
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@DebateArt.com
@RationalMadman
I see, that you accept you donations through patreon is enough to make me feel secure. Thank you.
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@DebateArt.com
When you post info on a small site it is seen by employees and can be shared. I'd more likely trust a larger corporation simply because there are a lot of people there and it would be more difficult to share information or focus on a single member. I'd like to donate but discreetly for reasons that are clear.
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@RationalMadman
Hmm, can I donate with ecoin? I don't need you people searching my texts and such.
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@TheRealNihilist
Well it's not just mods. I know I've seen the green lines on another random.
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@David
What are the lines that circle profile photos often? I assumed it meant someone was online but I just noticed a red line while I'd only seen a green.
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@Castin
Hmm what would you say if I said there are cheap simple solutions to reverse global warming without reducing carbon emissions at all?
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@TheRealNihilist
O-O... I hope your dog dies.
It's pop. I'm curious as to why large populations collect and decide somethings a fun thing to like. Naruto is that when it comes to anime. It's easy to hate on popular things, particularly when you get deeper into a genre, but so much easier to love them along with the masses.
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@RationalMadman
I think I did. That pop anime is as repetitive and exploitive as any other form of media is clear and I'll give you that. Just would not wish the BNaruto fillers on my worst enemies is all.
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