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@TheDredPriateRoberts
unfortunately the foundation doesn't seem interested in taking and keeping control of their mission. I mean I haven't seen any denouncing the actions of supposed BLM rioters, looters and criminals. No denouncing any of the violence, unprovoked attacks against white people etc. If you don't come out against it, it's like you condone it. Talk about destroying your credibility and message.
Organized groups like the BLM foundation are not responsible for the actions of random activists/saboteurs. Does Trump have to recognize all the violence that was done in support of him?
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@Greyparrot
That's not the point. If you are going to make the claim that the police system is so corrupt that it must be fundamentally changed from the ground up, you need the numbers to back that claim up. A few rogue cops out of millions of encounters isn't sufficient.
The police are reacting to the protests/riots extremely violently. This is fairly obvious.
Police accountability, the white supremacists within police, and overpolicing are all massive problems police have. It's not just the shootings, though those are a disporportionately American phenomenon.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
there is no "whole" there is not BLM because anyone can call their group BLM and it can stand for whatever they want, that's the point, there really is no BLM, it's not an organization just a catch phrase.
Right...? I mean there's the BLM Foundation but yeah it's mostly a decentralized movement.
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@ILikePie5
So your solution is defunding the police? Gotcha. Police unions are what protect the bad actors. Conservatives have been against unions for a while now. Unions are the largest contributors to Democrats
That's a big claim to go completely unsubstantiated. The Police are pro trump.
Is the fact that 0.00000001% of police interactions result in deaths
You sure give a lot of credit to police for not killing people. What a world we live in... Have you seen the videos? Like, at all? Have you seen this?
Black Lives Matter is a movement about police brutality, not "black on black crime".
I'm pretty sure that if Black Lives Matter actually did address black on black crime you wouldn't like it either. Something tells me that they'd be more into improving black communities by funding education and funding healthcare than echoing the classic "lol fix ur shit" Ben Shapiro talking point.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
lots of groups claim they are BLM and are anti-white. BLM is a non entity because of that.
Just because "some groups that claim to be BLM are racist" doesn't mean that BLM is racist as a whole.
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@bmdrocks21
By perpetuating lies and hyper-focusing on only white-on-black crimes to cause racial hatred of white people, I consider you anti-white.
BLM is about police on black violence, not white on black violence.
And when you lie to people in order to anger them, I’d say that you are at least somewhat responsible for their actions. The whole big starting point for their movement was lying about Michael Brown’s shooting
Who lied?
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@Death23
Honestly what's absent from the discussion of police brutality is the magnitude of the problem and the impact it has on communities. The impact of the problem should be measured when it comes to making policy changes. I suspect that it's not a very significant problem in most jurisdictions and that the real problem is overraction to the incidents.
Police brutality scares me conceptually (as I'm sure it does for many others) as it is the state abusing it's power. Any nation where police violence goes unchecked is creating a huge problem in the future.
But when it comes to protesting on a national level - I just don't see the issue as rising to the level where the response is proportionate.
I get the feeling that people are protesting about more than they say they're protesting about. Overpolicing + corruption from within in the police force and also the material disadvantages that black people face in America make people angry too, I imagine. Here's a good video about police accountability. His humor is kind of annoying but it's a good repository of info for how fucked American policing is.
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@Greyparrot
Why do you think police lack blame for attacking people during a protest just because most of them don't? That's like the lowest possible standard to hold them too.
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@Greyparrot
@Dr.Franklin
Here's a whole subreddit chock-full of egregious police violations for you to look at :)
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@bmdrocks21
So an anti-White and anti-cop movement has no responsibility when their supporters abuse White people and kill cops?
Anti-white?
And how does supporting the defunding of police mean that you are responsible for cop killings? If I oppose taxation and my supporters blow up a tax agency am I responsible? If I oppose gay marriage and my supporters kill gay people am I responsible? What if my huge and decentralized movement has tons of huge and decentralized supporters and I can't keep track of one guy's dumbass actions? Is Trump responsible for every single one of these people?
Does that mean that the KKK (they don’t really exist anymore, but insert random “hate group”) isn’t responsible when one of their members attacks people?
The KKK are responsible for being a horrible movement. If they were inciting violence, then yeah.
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@Greyparrot
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@Dr.Franklin
so the first is a horse trample, honest mistake-you cant control a horse in a massive city, and the police TRIED to control him but of course the communist crowd got upset, of course people would say "oh dont ride a horse" yet his wouldnt be proof of massive police brutality, a one off thing where it can be corrected(also in houston so good luck with covid)
I'm sure it was an "honest mistake" lol. You realize how negligent it is to ride a horse in a public area if you don't know how to ride a horse?
The intentional hit and run was 100% justified, he was on the road
The Civil Rights protestors were also on the road. They deserved to be abused too, I guess.
"for sport" nope, it was their order to move forward and those who resisted were beaten justified--Pro tip: if oyu dont want to get hit, move out of the way from the cops
Police's job is to de-escalate, though I agree that this one wasn't the worst.
the fourth clip is without context so its very hard to tell if it was escalated by that guy, then he should have been arrested
Seems pretty egregious, but yea context would help.
the 8th clip is so funny. hes complain about "brutality" and then says that they burned the place down!
You conflate protestors with rioters. Those protestors were peaceful. They were also getting shot at.
I dont feel like going through more but it is crazy how this is "massive police brutality" when it is simply a case of one hit on an annoying protestor
Read: People are getting attacked for expressing their free speech by people who's JOB is to SERVE and PROTECT their citizens.
As well as it PALES in comparison to the riots across the country
....What's your point?
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@Greyparrot
hope there are at least 300,000 links to put the 3 million annual police interactions into perspective.Nope, let down again by the rabid left.
... You're seeing how our law enforcers that are supposed to "serve and protect" is reacting when put in a situation where they have to serve and protect. And guess what? They're acting like fucking SS Blackshirts.
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Also this is literally an anecdote.
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Yeah it happened but it doesn't matter in a broader political context. Movements are not responsible for their supporters.
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Can't wait to hear the apologia on this one
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@Nemiroff
What war were the palestinians fighting? As far as i am aware they were part of the ottomans who lost the war.
No, no, they were revolting against them. They were promised a united Arab state if they did.
British didnt take over until the war ended. And yes, the Brits hold the majority of the blame in this situation and the situation as a whole.
Yeah, the British handled it poorly.
I dont know the details of every operation, especially the more recent ones, but i am open to info, however i did read more on the earlier struggle. I am not saying they were innocent 20 years ago, im saying they were under legitamete threat from suicide bombings in contrast to Hamas's ineffective rockets of today. I was explaining why israel has become so hostile and jaded to palestinians. 100 years of constant violence did that to both sides, however Israel was far less hostile and violent at the beginning. They did not kick out any arabs until war started, and 1) they did not start the war, 2) they were under attack by the local arabs for decades prior to the war including an entire decade of nonretaliation. Once war starts, of course attrocities happened, but the lead up to the war is mostly on the shoulders of the palestinians imo. So yeah, they got alittle aggressive during the war, nothing unexpected.
I'd say that expanding as a state into land that's owned by people who are completely different than you would probably seem aggressive to those that you're displacing. I'd also say that kicking people from their homes is incredibly immoral whether you're in war on not in war. It seems like Israel was also killing a lot of innocents during the war too.
A lot of Israeli land during and before the 1948 war was created by going into the homes of Arabs who had left and then saying, "sorry, you can't live here anymore". I question the legitimacy of a lot of Israel's pre-1948 aquisitions for this reason.
Israel's ambitions in the 1982 Lebanon went far beyond stopping terrorism. They used the Lebanon war as an opportunity to establish pro-Israel governance in Lebanon and allowed the Sabra and Shatila massacres to happen.
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I think that the actions of people are extremely related to genetic and environmental forces. I think that free will likely exists in a very limited way if at all.
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@ethang5
You've been attending too many left wing college meetings.Like most young progressives, you seem to have gotten your history from a cartoon. You probably just need the perspective experience brings.
What the hell is this? I thought you weren't doing Ad Homs? Lol
BTW, are you African American?
No.
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@ethang5
Our disagreement is not about whether blacks were discriminated against, but about whether they disrespect America.
The point is that you reap what you sow. America disrespects people, people disrespect America.
Look, I'm just gonna make this position clear. Conservatism, as a movement, is supportive or accepting of hierarchy. Leftism/liberalism (depending on how you define liberalism) is not, or at least accepts less heirarchy.
As time goes forward, the world spins on a progressive axis. There used to be a ton of legal race, class, gender, etc. barriers that existed all over the world. These barriers were created to enforce heirarchies. Now those legal barriers are diminishing all across the earth but especially in first-world countries.
Leftists and liberals were the ones championing these changes in opposition to heirarchy. The people who revolted against monarchy and for democracy during the enlightenment and the French revolution were liberals and they are called that by historians for this very reason. Leftists went even further and often opposed ALL constraints between races and classes. Conservatives are called conservatives because they wanted to conserve hierarchy and traditional social structures.
The social structures that conservatives wanted to keep were based on religion, class, and yes, often race. Social institutions like slavery and segregation became normal and traditional, and thus conservatives opposed changes to them.
This is not to say that modern conservatives are racist; this is of course not neccesarily true. But it is undoubtedly true to say that the segregationists and supporters of slavery were the ideological forefathers of modern conservatism that were swept away by the force of progressivism. Thus your claim that Conservatives were the ones supporting the civil rights movement is utterly absurd.
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@ethang5
I don't think that is always true. Some people just get screwed by other Americans, not America. Some people screw themselves and then blame America. And a few deserve to get screwed because of their evil behavior.
Black People were literally disallowed from living in certain neighborhoods, couldn't work at certain jobs, and couldn't go to good schools. One day America said "sorry lol" and stopped making racist laws. That didn't remedy all, and we still see the effects of that discrimination today.
That there is a reason why they were tiny minorities. What was the doctrine of official communist countries towards black people? If a tiny minority was ill treated, would a greater number fared better?
Lol dude like zero black people lived in Russia/China during the Russain Empire/Qing Dynasty too. I have no clue what the policies were towards black people. I DO know that the Soviets ended ethnic discrimination against Jews and the Pole of Settlement, the PRC made Affirmative Action policies for minorities, and Fidel Castro abolished legal segregation for Afro-Cubans. Look at America, too. Why is "Black Lives Matter" considered a leftist/liberal concept? Why were the leaders of the BLM foundation described as "trained Marxists"?
Once again this communist country stuff isn't the point. We're looking at who SUPPORTED black people through the years, not who gave them the best results.
Yet history shows that the most concrete advances were made under conservatives. For example, the first black Sanator was republican.
Republicans do not equal conservatives, ESPECIALLY not in the Reconstruction Era lol. Republicans then were some of the biggest progressives of their time.
This is a liberal talking point that leftist parrot without critical thought. A great man once sasaid...Equality of opportunity is freedom, equality of outcome is tyranny.Conservatives want equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.
Conservatism always changes what it means to adjust to societal trends. Back in the 60s a Conservative would've told you "I don't hate black people, I just think that God intended us to be separate" or some other BS. Conservatives during the French revolution would tell you "I don't hate poor people, I just think that we need a King". It's always marked by an opposition to progress, they just change the rhetoric.
And since I am not a liberal, you will have to tell me what is intrinsically wrong with heirarchy.
I don't need to tell you that. Heirarchy and equality have historically run in opposition to each other, and most historical events can be seen through that lense. Conservatives support the former, liberals/leftists support the latter (almost always, just in case you want to give one counterexample that you think will destroy my whole point) The fact that even now you see so much value/necessity in heirarchy and yet claim that conservatives were the ones fighting against it is absurd to me.
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@ethang5
Lie. You said Black Americans did not respect America. That is untrue. I told you that African Americans would, and have historically, disagreed with you. Nothing about "success", and no ad-hom.
Oh I think I was looking at a different paragraph when I said that. Nvm.
I didn't say that Black Americans don't respect America. Allow me to clarify, I'm sure plenty of them do. I said that they don't HAVE to, especially those who have been given the absolute worst that America has to offer.
To be unequivocally clear, this goes for ANY group, whether it be black people, people in poverty, immigrants, Palestinians... They do not have to respect a country that more often than not does not respect them.
Do you need a safe space snowflake?
lol
Perhaps you mean that Black Americans have a cause to disrespect America, but if so, which people do not have cause in their past?
"Their past". Yeah sure. Look at the poverty rates by race. Look at what's going on in those concentration camps at the border. Look at the convinction/sentencing disparities that exist in our criminal justice system. Look at the increasing wealth gap and low wealth mobility. Every person who is experiencing any of these things is getting completely fucked by America right now.
Uh huh. Blacks did great under Stalin and Mao.
Black people were a tiny minority in both of these states. Your point is what?
I think you're failing to differentiate results from intentions. Communism probably won't improve the lives of black people, or any people. But leftists and liberals are the people who SUPPORTED LEGAL EQUALITY for people of color through the years. Equality is the historical antithesis of conservatism, an ideology that's only consistent moral philosophy is predicated around the support of heirarchy.
I already explained it. The Colin Kaepernick thing contributed massively to awareness of issues concerning black people in America. That was the upside. It made some people mad. That was the downside. Clearly, raising awareness is more important than keeping right-wingers happy.
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@fauxlaw
As Ragnar said, thanks for doing this; it makes you an active participant in the community and it's always good to support what you think is right.
1. The argumentation is the stage when participants take turns publishing their arguments, the number of which is equal to the number of the rounds in the debate. All rounds contain arguments consisting of any or all of the following: argumentation, rebuttals, defenses, conclusions, and, as appropriate, references to sourcing. Instigator may designate specific content in each round, such as limiting rounds in which argumentation, rebuttal, defense, and conclusions are contained.
This is fine.
"2. Waiving any round by suggestion of either participant is not allowed. The stipulation of arguments equaling the number of rounds prevails. Instigator has the privilege, and responsibility, of having the first argument of each round and may not abdicate it by suggestion in the Description entered during the challenge phase."
I don't see why if both parties agree on Waiving it shouldn't be allowed. I kinda abide by the Harm Principle here.
Plus, Waiving first rounds can be useful if you create a debate in which the Contender has the BoP. If you're sold on an opinion but want someone else to convince you otherwise/want to rebut args instead of making them on a topic you care about, waiving the first round and letting your opponent argue is the way to go.
3. It is recommended for ease of voting that sourcing references be contained within the body of text, at the bottom of each relevant argumentation round, However, for brevity if word/space count is limiting, it is acceptable to document sourcing references in comments within the context of the debate file, but only during the argumentation phase. It s suggested that sourcing not be in an external file by linkage as this causes even greater complication of time for voters, and may result in their negative conduct assessment.
Why not just let debaters embed sources in bodies of text?
Why would the argumentation phase be relevant? That would mean that providing Sources post-R3 would be fine, but providing them Post-R4 (supposing that the debate in question had four rounds) wouldn't be allowed.
Meh, pulling up an external document isn't all that time consuming, at least for me. And you should probably look at the sources a debater gives in a debate regardless.
4. When a participant’s argument round is not published by the deadline, the participant automatically forfeits that round and most likely will be punished by the voters. If the number of forfeited rounds for either participant equals or exceeds half the rounds, it is an automatic voted loss of the debate. The opposing participant may indicate “extend argument to next round” in the event an opponent forfeits a round, or, a continuation of argumentation may be entered and published.
I don't know why it needs to be ruled a loss automatically. Voters generally do a good job voting on FF debates and it gets their stats up as well. Maybe you could have a policy that if there's a certain period of time left, there were three forfeited rounds by one side and no one has voted, the debate will be ruled a win for the non-ffing participant. Like I said though voting is so consistent on debates like these that it shouldn't be a problem. It's usually how I vote anyways.
5. In any round, either participant may concede the debate. That participant may either abandon the debate at that point [automatic forfeit of each round], or indicate “concede” in each succeeding round[s]. The opposing participant may either continue argumentation in each succeeding round, or indicate “extend argument” in each succeeding round. In any case, concession, without recourse of re-consideration, is a voted loss of the debate.
This is probably good to include in the Help Center
7. Neither debate participant may directly suggest voting tactics to voters during argumentation, or in comments. The entry of text such as, “I have proven my argument of [enter brief description] by virtue of [enter brief description]" is acceptable.
I know we've disputed this before, but the point of arguments is to convince voters. Things like Voting Suggestions are just more direct. Invalid or misrepresentative Voting Suggestions are obviously unsupported arguments and are bad conduct.
8. Neither debate participant may declare victory over the opponent in any round preceding the last round as it may invite conduct violation by voters. It is a conduct violation in forfeiture because the opponent may not assume a round forfeiture is complete debate forfeiture. In the last round, victory may be suggested, but only by commentary such as suggested in the preceding paragraph of this section. This policy will be followed in the instance of forfeiture or concession as a manner of courtesy.
"I win because my opponent forfeited" is of course dumb unless the rules that the Instigator set for the debate explicitly say that a forfeit = a loss beforehand. However, not all dumb statements should be banned.
Declaring victory is just a big way of convincing voters/emphasizing points. If declaring voting is unfair, then providing arguments is too IMO. And not all declarations of victory are done due to forfeit.
Thanks again for being a member of DART who stands for what they think is right :)
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@ethang5
It is reasonable policy to ignore what doesn't exist.
You assumed that I didn't like seeing black people be successful... I can only assume that that was because I'm a liberal.
These are your opinions about white Dems and Reps, not Blacks. African Americans themselves irked liberals by embracing Christianity, volunteering for war to defend America, registering to vote, and actively taking part in the country's social culture.They irked conservatives by not lashing back at those who wanted to keep them 2nd class citizens, and refusing to give up conservative values just because white conservatives were slow on acceptance. Time and time again, they have proven both the angry black militant wrong, and the fawning white liberal wrong.
Once again, say whatever you want but the statistics do not reflect your statements. And it's absurd to say that conservatism, an ideology intertwined with opposition to equality in favor of age-old hierarchies, were the ones marching for black people - that was the liberals and the leftists. Historically, the Communist Party was the only party consistently supporting the emancipation of black Americans. And I'm far from a communist - just acknowledging the historical trends.
"Worth" is always subjective.
The vast majority of debates that go on on this site are subjective. That doesn't mean I can't state that something is true.
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@ethang5
I would dare say most Black Americans would not agree with you. And to the consternation of people like you, Black Americans have constantly proven you wrong.
I'll ignore the Ad Homs.
I mean you can say what you want. Black Americans do not consistently prove me wrong. The incarceration and poverty rates of Black people are astronomical compared to other people. America is directly responsible for that. Republicans are responsible for nearly always ignoring systemic issues that exist in the Black Community and Democrats are responsible for giving lip service but also doing nothing in practice.
Then whether it's worth the tradeoff to you is immaterial.
It is worth the tradeoff period.
The man is an entitled, prissy, disrespectful, brat. He will fade into obscurity the way all losers do. America, and those who love her, will remain.
lol
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@ethang5
No one asked CK to give credit. He just didn't need to be disrespectful.
Point stands... America does not respect it's Black Americans, so why do Black Americans have to respect America?
You weren't the one doing the "trading".
I never said I was.
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@ethang5
Once again... Asking people to give credit to the country that fucked them over is just not feasible. You want people to respect your country? Have the country respect people. Not done yet in America.
If a protest points the finger at actual issues that exist in our country and spreads it to a wider audience, and some people have to get triggered for that to happen then that is a worthy tradeoff by me.
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@Intelligence_06
Thank you for the compliments! and no the second post does not need to contain compliments though I'd recommend against commenting twice to keep the flow going and to let new people get complimented. I may comment multiple times but that is only to clarify in cases like these.
If this is the most recent post for anyone watching please compliment Intelligence_06 instead of me as I have already received a compliment/posted.
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ONLY compliments, please. It'll probably get deleted if someone gets flamed.
It could be related to debates or not.
Basically, the user who commented last will be the person you will compliment. Then you will become the person who commented last and the cycle will repeat.
Hopefully this will inspire friendships and kindness on DART :)
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@Intelligence_06
Yeah, I know that in theory there's a lot of Communist propaganda/education, but in practice I see a ton of Capitalism. They've been opening up the markets for a while now. Plus it's pretty nationalist/is targeting minorities.
No doubt that anti-liberty/freedom is an authoritarian trait; China is authoritarian and there can be no dispute about it. I don't think it's a leftist trait though.
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@Intelligence_06
Wow. By China's education system?
To be honest, I'm not sure that China is even AuthLeft anymore. They're kind of fascists.
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@Intelligence_06
LibLeft as well.... I've been everywhere on the spectrum but AuthLeft though
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I am far-right.
Hopefully that's the only time I'll have to say that sentence.
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@Greyparrot
Keyword: people are ASKED TO. People who VOLUNTEER are ASKED to counter their racial stereotypes. Your attempt to dramatize this is hilarious.
First, it was a race thing, then it was a blame thing, now it's a technique thing. You keep pivoting. And it's obvious that you oppose this by default and if you don't have a reason to you'll come up with one.
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Sixth...
Do expound please. I'm all ears.
I mean the burden of proof is on you to prove that unconscious bias is about blaming whites lol
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@Greyparrot
Fifth post where you've failed to acknowledge your own dishonesty
Then maybe you should do a little more research on unconscious bias
Ah yes, I remember when the academics said "we made unconscious bias to blame whites for things"
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@RationalMadman
Armored cats
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@Greyparrot
This is the fourth post where you've failed to acknowledge your own pivoting. You said it was some sort of anti-white phenomenon, propagated that lie to other people, and refused to address it and changed your argument when I called you on it.
I am addressing your claim that birth conditions such as unconscious bias cause racism
Idk about "birth conditions". Seems like unconscious bias is fostered by the internalization of certain stereotypes you experience by living in a society.
It's pernicious when the Nazis did it and it's just as bad when the 2020 woke academic Marxists do it.
The difference with Nazis is that it's a racist thing lol. The academics of today don't regard unconscious bias as something that white people do or vice versa.
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@Greyparrot
This is the third time I have to call you out for pivoting on your initial position and not addressing why you did.
Absofuckinglutely. If you wanna go down the rabbithole for judging people for things they can't control, why stop at fingernails?
No one's talking about judging people. People are actually talking about understanding racial disparities in sentencing, arrests, race relations in general, but ofc you keep ignoring this.
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@Greyparrot
Like how you ignored your own pivoting. You literally spread this false "they just hate the white man" narrative and in reality I demonstrated to you that there is no evidence that it has anything to do with whiteness exclusively.
Are you equating the knowledge that people can be biased without knowing it, something that would be massively impactful in understanding racial disparities in things like sentencing and race relations with something like everyone has fingernails?
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@Greyparrot
First - why are you pivoting?
Second - Unconscious bias helps us understand a lot of attitudes people have towards race. Academics don't want everyone to hate each other.
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@Greyparrot
The most insidious anti-white racist thing being taught at Marxist universities today is this concept of unconscious bias. It basically says simply having the DNA of white skin makes you a problem for society whether you know it or not. This ties on along nicely with the concept of blood-guilt, being responsible for the actions of long-dead people that you happen to share DNA with.Has to be some of the most pernicious teachings ever to come out of the racist universities. In the 1800's junk academics used similar logic to justify why people with black-skin DNA were an inherent problem for society.
Unconscious bias as an academic concept is not exclusive to white people lmao
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Honestly if there's one example of non-legal protest that I support it's definitely pushing those fucking statues over. Imagine having to stand under the beautiful bronze statue of some guy who fought tooth-and-nail to continue the slavery of your ancestors.
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@fauxlaw
Is that why they'll argue against all lives matter?
Imagine if a guy broke his legs. Why would you ask "what about my legs?" All Lives Matter is a protest to BLM and Conservatives wouldn't be saying ALM if it wasn't for BLM.
Considering that the fetus, actually from the moment of conception when two gametes become a zygote, the DNA says human, aznd specifically, the DNA of a black zygote says black skin, and not anything else. "Human," as in people.
This is a good point. I'd point out however that allowing cheap access to abortion would improve the lives of black people who have already been born. Abortions are much, MUCH cheaper than raising a child. So if your opinion is a pro-choice one it's reasonable to understand how this benefits black people.
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@Nemiroff
Good points, but it's important to understand that the British promised the Arabs the land as well. I'd be angry if I fought a war for land I wouldn't even get.
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@Vader
What, 80 years ago?
How hard is it to understand that the people who actually got fucked by America get to protest America?
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