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@Tradesecret
God created humanity very good. There were no flaws.
Well clearly God didn't try hard enough. Think, if there was a perfect, flawless and good humanity, where does the bad come from? If everything was good and big man God made sure of it, surely bad is an impossible state to achieve.
Your reasoning is faulty. God did not created flawed people. Show me in the bible - where God created unfaithful people - where God made faulty people.
Here, I'll present my argument better.
P1. If humans are flawless, they are good.
P2. Humans are not flawless, as they commit adultery.
C1. God didn't create people good.
If God created people to be good, then where did the bad come from?
Free will is not a flaw. Free will might lead to people sinning. Yet, free will is not a flaw.
Well that's rather awkward because I don't believe in free will. The following is an exert from something which I have heard Sam Harris say.
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Pick a random country. Any country. Notice this processes which you are going through. Notice the selecting and the choosing, and the "freeness "which you are going through. What if I were to say that this very processes proves that free will does not exist?
In order to unpack this, we must first establish the options that one has topic.
1)A person is not free to choose a country which they do not know exists.
2)A person cannot choose a country which didn't occur to them
3)You can only choose what occurs to you
The first option is obvious. If you don't know it, then you cannot choose it. You are not free to choose it, so to speak.
The second option however, is a little more confronting. Perhaps all readers know about Argentina but for some reason, your Argentina neurons were not functioning and you did you think it it. This then begs the question, what can you think about?
The third option is to unpack what you can choose. Say you chose America. The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you. But how do you choose what occurs to you? The process of something occurring to you is unsolicited, it is impossible to choose what occurs to you.
Secondly, say the countries America and China occurred to you (you did not choose for these two countries to occur to you, they simply did). Ask yourself, why did you choose America? When subjects in a lab are asked to justify their actions(whilst under the influence of some independent variable) the test subject usually does not know the real reason why their actions occurred the way that they did (assuming an experienced experimenter was involved). However, this isn't to say they don't have a tale to tell. If you asked a person who has been hypnotised why they did certain things, they usually have bizarre reasons forwhy the did what they did (though unconvincing to us, the subject remains convinced of their tale). Returning to the case of free will, why does one choose Americas opposed to China. Well, one may say that "they just had an American hotdog last night and so America appealed to them". However, this is no justification, it is merely stating a fact. It's like if you asked a murderer why they murdered and they said "I killed him". So why choose America instead of China because you ate a hotdog? Why couldn't you think "well I've just had a hotdog, let's switch things up, I'll choose China". This process of "choosing" because of your apparent "justification" is no more than your neurons making a decision for you and you being aware of this decision.
You cannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you "chose" the option of which you did.
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@Tradesecret
Why is it atheists are scared of judgment?
Do you not find it stupid that, according to you, God created human beings imperfectly so that He can then get the pleasure of punishing them? If you are omnipotent, why create a flaw in the first place? Why create a "bad" human being? All of our immoral acts can be traced back and blamed on God, if he really did create us. If God created us a certain way, then all of our flaws are due to God being a bad creator, something which we have no control over, and yet we are being sent to eternal flames for God's poor construction.
The principle on adultery is clear.
But think, why did the person commit adultery in the first place? Answer: because God created unfaithful people. If God had not created unfaithful people, then unfaithful people would not be exist.
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Who on this site actually has the authority to make this change.
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@Tradesecret
So if you agree context is important and so do I, what is your problem?
The problem is whether you can provide context for acts such as
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’
(1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
(Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Among the other versus I have provided.
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@Mopac
And I prescribe this book to you, Mr. Grown up.
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@ronjs
The first life was created, everyone since then are (inexact) copies using the biology that God endowed humans with.
And evidence of this...?
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@Mopac
There's a great saying which goes as follows. Believe the bible without reading it and you are a Catholic. Believe the parts that you like and you are evangelical. Read it cover to cover and you'll be an Atheist.Someone who reads the bible cover to cover and is illumined is Orthodox.
Someone who actually reads it with a clear mind and no prior belief will not believe in God because they read the bible. The first time I looked at the bible, the very first page was very much like some childish story.
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@Tradesecret
Your challenge to us - the three you named in your so called challenge. It suggested that context was irrelevant.
I never said that context was irrelevant. I simply asked for you provide context to horrendous bible verses.
Many people - Atheists in particular rip things in the bible out of context often to try and mock Christians.
There's a great saying which goes as follows. Believe the bible without reading it and you are a Catholic. Believe the parts that you like and you are evangelical. Read it cover to cover and you'll be an Atheist.
Yes I did see your reply to me. Yet your reply did not address even one of the matters I raised in respect of context.
Well I actually did reply to the matter.
In fact you agree you were simply cutting and pasting without thought from the internet.
No need to hype up nothing. All you rebutted was snippets from google (though admittedly, many of your friends were bamboozled by this). However, when I gave the personally fact checked rebuttal, you hide. Which of course, I expected nothing less.
The only way you could come up with something like "God is a murdering filth" is IF you rip things out of context.
Then please, provide context to what I have provided. I have clearly demonstrated that God is a murderer. Of course you won't because you are scared.
The ball remains in your court - whenever you want to pick up your racquet and hit it.
Your reaction time really is poor. I have provided sources from your little book which shows that God is a disgusting being. You of course, hid and ran.
Otherwise. Go home and play with your cricket bat there.
I recommend you see a doctor. Your reaction time is astoundingly poor.
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@Mopac
Thats like saying "human beings live of light because if you trace down everything they eat, it will eventually lead to something which photosynthesises"
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@Mopac
I would not acknowledge your parents as your creator. Therefore, your claim that this is not a controversial opinion is false.
How did I come into this world? My parents created me that's how. Therefore, my claim is true. My parents in fact did give me life. That was their choice and their doing. Since they gave me my life, can they take it away?
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@Tradesecret
You asserted CONTEXT is unimportant.
When did I say this? When did anyone say this? No one is saying that context is unimportant. It is the religious people who make a fuss about context when confronted with challenging verses from their book.
Or rather you suggested that theists call out "context" whenever they feel like they are being beaten. Yet, I have completely and utterly demonstrated that context is important and that it provides significant understanding to each verse.
Clearly, you did not see the extensive reply that I have given you, of which I have personally checked with biblegateway to see if everything was accurate. I have shown how God is a murdering filth and the only thing you were able to reply with is "the ball is in your court". In fact, I shall address that now.
The ball is in your court - now.Play ball.
Your reaction time must be astoundingly slow as I have already replied to you 29 hours ago.
I thank you for dropping all point, hence alluding to a concession. Whatever happened to "But as for the verses you have asked for a context. I will respond to your challenge. And I do so eagerly. "
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@Mopac
@ronjs
The claim that you too have essentially made the claim that
Mothers don't create life, they live it... Your mother is not The Ultimate Reality.
Biologically my mother and father created me. This is not controversial. Science can confirm that they created me and gave me life. Even though my parents are not the ultimate reality, that is not the point. I neve claimed that they were. This was in response to you saying that "that of whom gives something can take it back".
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@seldiora
I get the feeling that you don't like juice wrld.
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@Mopac
If my mum gives birth to me (creates me and brings me into the world) does she have the rights to kill me?
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@Mopac
In fact, you should be able to type your own religion.
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@Mopac
This isn't about what the Israels did or didn't do. This is about why God killed 10 000 people. Which you cannot answer.
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@Tradesecret
Very interesting rev, or should I say ethang?
You have passed the first level, the on which I spent 30 seconds constructing a completely copy and pasted argument from google. Now, instead of 30 seconds, I shall double my efforts and use a minute. (although admittedly, other religious folks had some issues with even these verses"
He (God) struck down seventy men because they looked inside the Ark of the Covenant.
And this is right now is it? They were taken down with a mighty blow because they looked at some old wooden chest? What did they discover in there? Surely, it's highly confidential, as God had to kill the men for seeing what the chest harboured. Nope, just a stone tablet.
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God’s irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
1) Capital Punishment Crimes:
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
4) Miscellaneous Murders
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Enjoy!
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@Mopac
We don't worship a book. That would be idiotic.
You worship God of whom killed 10 000 people at his will.
Who would be open to hearing about true Christianity when they've been oversaturated with the conflicting opinions of all these bozo heretics?
But these are things that you, as a Christian need to understand. You can't just look at all the "happy" verses and be blind to the evil ones. You need to address the confronting versus if you really want people to take you seriously.
At this point, why care to hear more?
This whole verse is about "context". I as an atheist have things that I want to be cleared up. I have provided verses which I want cleared up. Clearly, you are as confused as I am, as you have not addressed even a single one of these versus.
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@seldiora
Just to judge your musical taste, judge the three songs I have listed, all of which are very different.
Godzilla
-Eminem and Juice
POV
- Grande
Riot
- Lil Story (very small artist)
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@Mopac
You know what else is patently idiotic? Worshiping a book which contains such horrors as the bible. One where people pray to a being who killed 10 000 because they felt like it.
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@zedvictor4
Just because a criminal misuses a gun, doesn't mean that I should loose my rights to own a gun.
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@Mopac
It's not like anyone is entitled to live.
What happened to love ur neighbor like you love ur self.
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@Mopac
You who judge Christ, know that you judge yourself. For you in no way surpass Christ in righteousness.
?? How is this relevant to God killing 10 000 people
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@Theweakeredge
Uuhhuh..... I'm curious where you got that number, but the fact remains, guns were literally designed to kill things, whether that be people or animals.
Gun's are use to kill bad people. Gun's are used to protect people. Criminals who misuse guns do not and should not take away my rights to protect myself.
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@Mopac
If you want to see God leading by example, you must look at when God became man. That is, you must look at Jesus Christ.
- First, why not look at God? Is there something God has done which you deem immoral?
- All good. There are plenty of things which Jesus has done which I can pick out.
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers
Matthew 21:12-13
This is perhaps the most famous of Jesus’ anger issues occurred when he came across a temple to his dad, and found it full of moneylenders and animal-sellers. He was furious at this sacrilege, but he didn’t just get mad—he effectively Hulked out, flipping over tables and knocking over chairs. And then he stood guard at the door, to make sure no more jerks came in on non-worshipping business. As for as reasons for Jesus to be angry go, this is a solid one, but admittedly it doesn’t seem much in line with the “turn the other cheek” and “love your enemies” guy.
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To be fair, Jesus only spat on the eyes of blind people in order to perform the miracle of restoring their sight (Mark 8:23) although there was time that Jesus spat on the ground, made some mud, and then rubbed the mud in the blind man’s eyes to heal them (John 9:6). Seeing as Jesus could heal people with a touch and kill trees with a word, was it 100% necessary to do all that spitting, too?
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What about Matthew 8, where Jesus killed a bunch of pigs.
When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding.
The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.
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@Mopac
Because the verses you would point out are not intended to teach us how to act.
There is something called leading by example. God clearly, through his actions of killing 10 000 people at his will, is not leading by example.
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@Mopac
What is there to explain?
Explain why God killed 10 000 people at his will.
All I can say is that the church teaches to love everyone, and we certainly do not practice a violent religion.
Expect for, of course, the verses you don't like, which I have already shown to you multiple times.
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@EtrnlVw
In response to me stating the following
The argument from personal experience isn't very strong (or at least I believe). First off, how would you explain Muslims experiencing the Allah, or Ancient Egyptians sighting Osiris? Many people claim to have a personal experience with their God but the issue is that these sightings are common in any religion you encounter.
EtrnLVw makes the following claims.
The vastness of creation allows for many types of spiritual experiences, not just one or two.
There are 7.5 billion people in the world. Mathematics can allow for more than "one or two" of these "miracles" to occur without us being confounded.
That means that there's not just one source over another that can have legit experience.
True. But this one source, being the sheer amount of people in the world who are active every day, is enough to explain the miracles which happen from day to day.
Actually, personal experience is a very real and strong argument because it's based on first hand observations, people just don't know it yet...their objections are valid they just aren't relevant. They are unaware that variations are not an issue, they are in fact a feature of creation.
One difficulty with taking such "revelatory" experiences at face value is that they're not restricted to one faith. Catholics see the Virgin Mary. Hindus see the Vishnu and New Agers see the Goddess. The fact that so many people have so many bizarre and often contradictory experiences - experiences that coincidentally always happen to fit with they own particular religion faith ought to lead some who claims to have had a revelation to treat their experience with caution. So, too, ought the fact that at least some of these religious experiences are known to have physiological causes. For example, the famous "tunnel" experienced by those close to death accompanied by intense feelings of well being is the result of hypoxia and can be induced at will using a test pilots centrifuge.
Because of the reality that there are countless societies that exist outside the immediate physical realm one can have many types of encounters. God understands that the soul will have many different and various interests and desires and so God accommodates that with God's eternal creative abilities. Whether or not Theists accept this phenomenon is irrelevant, what they say or believe about that has no real merit. So they can make claims that they believe this or that, or that their observations are the only "true" experience but those claims should be considered but then tossed aside...to put it bluntly. It's time for souls here to realize how magnificent and beautiful the variations of creation are and if they choose to abide in a particular culture and show reverence and love for that one culture it's okay, but stop being a racist religious thug, to put it bluntly. It is time for people to grow up and observe the many wonderful features that God has created and stop the prejudice.
And this supports your claim how? There's a great way you can see if this logic you use is exclusive or not. If it justifies all Gods, then it is faulty. If it only makes sense with your God, then it has some credibility. Let's put it to the test.
Because of the reality that there are countless societies that exist outside the immediate physical realm one can have many types of encounters. Allah understands that the soul will have many different and various interests and desires and so Allah accommodates that with Allah eternal creative abilities. Whether or not Theists accept this phenomenon is irrelevant, what they say or believe about that has no real merit.... it is time for people to grow up and observe the many wonderful features that Allah has created and stop the prejudice.
As you can see, it still give of the same mysterious vibe and doesn't actually accomplish anything.
You then go on the talk about God knows what. I fail to see how the "kingdoms of this planet" have anything to do with miracles.
When asked about miracles, you stated that
Well I'm not speaking for the other poster obviously, but a miracle would simply be an action taken that had its origins from a source outside of our immediate physical domain. Other beings in creation outside of ours can and will act as they feel necessary and what they can do within their specific powers. Miracles shouldn't be labeled as something we feel is necessary, it's what the other source feels is necessary.
Such as what? What notable event can be categorised as a "miracle" because if there is one, I haven't heard of it.
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@Mopac
I certainly have not pointed you to these verses. What does the church teach about God? That is what matters.
You can't just teach one set of things whilst your own bible harnesses such horrors. You need to explain the verses I have shown you. They are part of what you believe.
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@Mopac
We use scripture to point people to this religion, The Eternal Way of Truth.
But the verses which you have pointed me to all make me cringe at religion. Like, “God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him”. This isn't the kind of thing I want to be involved with. I don't endorse killing. I don't want to pray to something which kills at their will. Perhaps you could provide context to the statements I have provided.
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@Mopac
Maybe you shouldn't concern yourself with these hard things then Instead, you should learn what the faith is about.
Exactly!! Teach me! Gimme some context
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@ethang5
Perhaps, but I've seen you start multiple threads with no success. I don't think there's a way to talk sense in these people.Tell him to start multiple accounts like you. That might work.
I hardly think that would. Also, you've ignored that I sent you...
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@Mopac
Instead of presuming to know, it would be better to say "I don't know", and be open to learning something.
I 100 percent agree with you. I don't know. I don't know why
“God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him”
Samuel 6:19
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, She will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are”
Peter 2:18
“Their little ones will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be looted, and their wives will be raped”.
Isaiah 13:19
“See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
Genesis 19:8
"Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!"
Psalm 137:9
"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have — from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves"
Leviticus 25:444-45
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him"
Levitivus 20:9
"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths"
2 Kings 2:23
In the Old Testament, God murdered 203834 people, now compare that to Satan who killed 10.
Please. I have done as you asked. I have, instead of presuming to know, admitted that I don't know.
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@Stephen
Perhaps, but I've seen you start multiple threads with no success. I don't think there's a way to talk sense in these people.
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@Mopac
Deflect, deny and hide. I will make this clear as day for you. Do you believe the bible yes or no.
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@Mopac
Easy peasy. Christians believe in one God that created heaven, earth and the universe. The belief in one God originated with the Jewish religion. Christians believe Jesus is the “Messiah” or saviour of the world. They also believe that he is the son of God.Yet, you don't know the God we worship. Nor does calling Jesus "the savior of the world" say anything meaningful about what we believe.You still can't tell me what I believe, because you have dismissed it before coming to any real understanding of it.
It is mildly frustrating that when you are confronted with the facts, you oil away without addressing the issue in hand. So since you are the big wise man, why don't you define what you believe. What I can say with certainty is that you believe the bible. With this information, I can conclude the following.
P1. You believe in the bible
P2. The bible depicts God having the ability to kill 10 000 people at his will.
P3. God is the arbiter of truth and cannot be immoral
C1. Killing 10 000 people is not immoral
So please, instead of escaping the question, please provide context to the versus I have stated. I'm sure if I as an atheist stated that "love one another, As I have loved you, you must love one another", you won't be rushing in to say "You have no idea. Therefore, it is you who won't sit down and listen. You don't even know what scripture is used for"
It's interesting that if I bring out a "good" verse, you will have no complaints, but if I bring out the more confronting verses, I get insulted and called unintelligent.
It's interesting that if I bring out a "good" verse, you will have no complaints, but if I bring out the more confronting verses, I get insulted and called unintelligent.
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@Stephen
Perhaps one of you three can provide some "context" to these versus.Don't hold your breath. You won't get explanation for those verses without them being re-written.
I don't expect it.
Are there any good verses?
I think there's limit to how much fiction can impact ones life. Personally, I think even the "best" part of Christian, eg. Heaven, are all deeply evil. Just think about heaven. No personality. No bad to contrast your good. A place where only believers are. Praying and worshiping god around the clock. Eh. I rather go to hell with Satan and all my atheist bros.
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@Mopac
Let me ask you something.
Excellent
What do we Orthodox Christians teach and believe?
Easy peasy. Christians believe in one God that created heaven, earth and the universe. The belief in one God originated with the Jewish religion. Christians believe Jesus is the “Messiah” or saviour of the world. They also believe that he is the son of God.
You have no idea.
^^
Therefore, it is you who won't sit down and listen. You don't even know what scripture is used for.
No no. You're the big wise God guided man. I'll be very happy to go through how I am mistaken regarding the 9 sources I have provided.
I'll help you out a little. We don't teach genocide. You have nothing to fear.
Hm very interesting. Why it seems very clear that “God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him” (Samuel 6:19). Perhaps you could evaluate.
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@ethang5
@Mopac
@Tradesecret
Since you three seem to be the most active advocates of theism and seem to all believe that the bible is taken out of context, could any one of you provide some context to the following?
“God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him”
Samuel 6:19
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, She will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are”
Peter 2:18
“Their little ones will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be looted, and their wives will be raped”.
Isaiah 13:19
“See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
Genesis 19:8
"Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!"
Psalm 137:9
"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have — from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves"
Leviticus 25:444-45
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him"
Levitivus 20:9
"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths"
2 Kings 2:23
In the Old Testament, God murdered 203834 people, now compare that to Satan who killed 10.
Also, why is it always the "evil" verses which are "taken out of context". With you logic, I can say that all the "good" verses are taken out of context and that God is actually all evil?
Perhaps one of you three can provide some "context" to these versus. You should feel very privileged indeed! It's a time for you to prove us dumb atheists wrong. Let's see it. I'll be waiting.
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@Stephen
Do you not understand? Theists don't care. If they don't like it, they don't hear it. If theists were to slow down and listen , then there would be no more theists.
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Thefollowing is a thought experiment which supposedly proves that free will doesnot exist, first used and authored by Sam Harris.
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Picka random country. Any country. Notice this processes which you are goingthrough. Notice the selecting and the choosing, and the "freeness"which you are going through. What if I were to say that this very processesproves that free will does not exist?
Inorder to unpack this, we must first establish the options that one has topick.
1)A person is not free to choose a country which they do not know exists.
2)A person cannot choose a country which didn't occur to them
3)You can only choose what occurs to you
Thefirst option is obvious. If you don't know it, then you cannot choose it. Youare not free to choose it, so to speak.
Thesecond option however, is a little more confronting. Perhaps all readers knowabout Argentina but for some reason, your Argentina neurons were notfunctioning and you did you think it it. This then begs the question, what canyou think about?
Thethird option is to unpack what you can choose. Say you chose America. The firstthing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.But how do you choose what occurs to you? The process of something occurring toyou is unsoliccited, it is impossible to choose what occurs to you.
Secondly,say the countries America and China occurred to you (you did not choose forthese two countries to occur to you, they simply did). Ask yourself, why didyou choose America? When subjects in a lab are asked to justify their actions(whilst under the influence of some independent variable) the test subjectusually does not know the real reason why their actions occurred the way thatthey did (assuming an experienced experimenter was involved). However, thisisn't to say they don't have a tale to tell. If you asked a person who has beenhypnotised why they did certain things, they usually have bizzare reasons forwhy the did what they did (though unconvincing to us, the subject remains convincedof their tale). Returning to the case of free will, why does one choose Americaas opposed to China. Well, one may say that "they just had an Americanhotdog last night and so America appealed to them". However, this is nojustification, it is merely stating a fact. It's like if youasked a murderer why they murdered and they said "I killed him". Sowhy choose America instead of China because you ate a hotdog? Why couldn't youthink "well I've just had a hotdog, let's switch things up, I'll choose China".This process of "choosing" because of your apparent"justification" is no more than your neurons making a decision foryou and you being aware of this decision.
Youcannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you"chose" the option of which you did.
===
BeforeI read Sam Harris's Free Will book, I was convincedthat free will was real. Now, after being confronted by this seemingly simplyline of thinking, I'm not so sure. Feel free to have a stab at Harris'slogic.
===
Picka random country. Any country. Notice this processes which you are goingthrough. Notice the selecting and the choosing, and the "freeness"which you are going through. What if I were to say that this very processesproves that free will does not exist?
Inorder to unpack this, we must first establish the options that one has topick.
1)A person is not free to choose a country which they do not know exists.
2)A person cannot choose a country which didn't occur to them
3)You can only choose what occurs to you
Thefirst option is obvious. If you don't know it, then you cannot choose it. Youare not free to choose it, so to speak.
Thesecond option however, is a little more confronting. Perhaps all readers knowabout Argentina but for some reason, your Argentina neurons were notfunctioning and you did you think it it. This then begs the question, what canyou think about?
Thethird option is to unpack what you can choose. Say you chose America. The firstthing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.But how do you choose what occurs to you? The process of something occurring toyou is unsoliccited, it is impossible to choose what occurs to you.
Secondly,say the countries America and China occurred to you (you did not choose forthese two countries to occur to you, they simply did). Ask yourself, why didyou choose America? When subjects in a lab are asked to justify their actions(whilst under the influence of some independent variable) the test subjectusually does not know the real reason why their actions occurred the way thatthey did (assuming an experienced experimenter was involved). However, thisisn't to say they don't have a tale to tell. If you asked a person who has beenhypnotised why they did certain things, they usually have bizzare reasons forwhy the did what they did (though unconvincing to us, the subject remains convincedof their tale). Returning to the case of free will, why does one choose Americaas opposed to China. Well, one may say that "they just had an Americanhotdog last night and so America appealed to them". However, this is nojustification, it is merely stating a fact. It's like if youasked a murderer why they murdered and they said "I killed him". Sowhy choose America instead of China because you ate a hotdog? Why couldn't youthink "well I've just had a hotdog, let's switch things up, I'll choose China".This process of "choosing" because of your apparent"justification" is no more than your neurons making a decision foryou and you being aware of this decision.
Youcannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you"chose" the option of which you did.
===
BeforeI read Sam Harris's Free Will book, I was convincedthat free will was real. Now, after being confronted by this seemingly simplyline of thinking, I'm not so sure. Feel free to have a stab at Harris'slogic.
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@Barney
I’ve seen enough miracles which are better explained by God than random chance and predetermination.Granted, this is why I believe, not a declaration that others must believe.
The argument from personal experience isn't very strong (or at least I believe). First off, how would you explain Muslims experiencing the Allah, or Ancient Egyptians sighting Osiris? Many people claim to have a personal experience with their God but the issue is that these sightings are common in any religion you encounter.
Second off, what constitutes a "miracle". What have you experience that is considered a miracle. It's important to note the difference between a miracle and luck. Once in a while, reports of "miracles" are documented. However, we should expect these entirely accurate reports of extremely improbable things happening occasionally. Imagine life to be a lottery, and everyone is participating. As billions of people go through the lottery of life, some are bound to get spectacularly lucky. To pin these improbable things on supernatural causes is to ignore the statistical probability of these miracles happening to some person at some point in time. After all, we don't report on every non-miracle thing which occurs in the world, it's only the "amazing" things which people are interested in.
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