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What happens to those that see gods face?

Exodus 33:20   But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Exodus 24:9-10  Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel.

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and commandments I have written for their instruction.”
Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God. He said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we come back to you. Aaron and Hur are with you, and anyone involved in a dispute can go to them.”
When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai.

Genesis 12:7   The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring[ I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 32: 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,  saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Exodus 33:11-23 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

In my post, I said "The rock could even have many complex and interesting details." This was conveniently excluded when you quoted me. That rock can be as complex as you like. I'm still not going to be convinced that it was created by intelligent life.

For the first question, no, and for the second question, yes.

 My point was that it is not the complexity of something that determines whether or not it is reasonable to believe that it was created by intelligent life.

To create is to bring into existence. This implies that the thing previously did not exist, and now does exist. If it did exist previously, it did not need to be created, and if it does not exist now, then it has not been created.

My point was that since math has always existed, it cannot have been created.

 I originally asserted that you cannot create something if that thing exists regardless of your creation of it.

It should hopefully be clear enough that creating something that already exists is a logical contradiction. You asserted that God can do this, presumably implying that God can do anything, even if it is a logical contradiction. 

Saying he's a comedian doesn't negate that he's a fascist. Fascists are often very charasmatic, it's nearly impossible to get large groups of people to hand power over to you without that.

Any thoughts on the examples/questions I brought up in the op

 Trump calling his political advasaries vermin

 and his behind the scenes plan to rid the government of all civil servants and replace them with loyalists who will do whatever he wants.

 calling for the execution of a top general over charges of not obeying his presidential will

encouraging police to shoot shoplifters on the spot, not to mention January 6th

Do you believe Trump is a fascist and/or an authoritarian? Yes or No?

By the same logic: Rocks are some thing that we can analyze, ("doing math" is just a shorthand for analyzing it) and therefore they are an intelligent system. 

 Thus, if we see rocks on a remote planet, we should assume that there is intelligent life there which created those rocks.

I was defending my position that math cannot have been created.

You aren't being particularly consistent with your definition of the natural world, but if it is the same as the physical world, then yes, I "admit" the existence of the supernatural world.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Now I'll repeat my question: Why is it that everything in the natural world must be created?

Even if he can, he never has, and never will.

Most people agree that God's omnipotence does not include being able to defy logic itself, but even if you do not agree with this, I would argue that God never has and never will done anything that defies logic.

What do you mean? Doing math is a sign of intelligence, yes, but the Mandelbrot set was the Mandelbrot set before anyone plugged the numbers into a computer, and if you disagree with that, then you are effectively saying that said computer created it, which would defeat your entire original argument.

To create is to bring into existence. This implies that the thing previously did not exist, and now does exist. If it did exist previously, it did not need to be created, and if it does not exist now, then it has not been created.

As to your question, it's simple: Math is not contained within the physical world.

Okay, so we extend the natural world beyond the physical world. Why is it that everything in the natural world must be created?

 The point is that you cannot create something if that thing exists regardless of your creation of it.

. In a theoretical in which God did not exist, when the formula for generating the Mandelbrot set was plugged into a computer, what would happen?

Math is not bound by time, space, or matter, therefore you should hopefully agree that it requires no creator.

If the allegory contains a unicorn, and the allegory is applied to the natural world, then by your logic, unicorns exist in the natural world.

"Time has not always existed" huh? So there was a point in time at which time didn't exist?

First I didn't say he did exist and not exist, I said he could, as in it's within his capabilities.

Second, existence isn't limited to the natural world.

You say he can't exist within the natural world because he's infinite and the natural world is finite. In other words, he can't exist in the natural world because that would be a logical contradiction.

To believe God is not subject to the laws of logic is to believe that God can exist and not exist at the same time in the same sense.

Why? If you consider God to be the creator of all other things, than God was not created. 

I have often heard the argument that God exists outside of time, and so is separated from causality, but the exact same thing applies to math. Math is effectively the study of those truths which are absolutely necessary. This shape, and everything else in math, exist outside of time just like this proposed God.

In fact, that which is outside of time has, at any point in time, has always existed

Agreed that is well documented fact. So what? ? ?  Keep your nose out of pregnant womans bodily business.

The egg and sperm are both live sex cells before fertilization of the egg. Another well documented fact.

This is nutter talk.  Do I really have to go through the list of well documented facts as well as rather simple, logic, common sense truths that fetus is part  of pregnant woman ergo and organism of the pregnant woman for the duration of gestation and until ublicord is cut and the fetus/baby has taken its firt inspiriting breath of air? ? ?

Abortion is the right of the pregnant woman who was given the gift of sperm from a male donor.

Ha, easier said than done fellow  human. After thirst food and maybe shelter, is does there exist any stronger genetic drive/desire then orgasm an human connection on intimate levels. And these days it is easy to take a pill to prevent or abort soon after.  And I bet you and other nutters oppose these pills also. Can you answer truthfully? ? ?

As a pro-life guy, who doesn't want anyone to get abortions, then, what is your solution to unwanted pregnancy?

 I presume you're not big on social programs like food stamps and welfare and housing assistance as it is today. Would I be wrong that you'd be against expanding these programs to support the number of unintended babies that lack of abortion must inevitably lead to?

I don't mean just increasing the amount of government funding that goes into these programs, but you'd also need to invent new programs. Like 100% subsidized day care for the children of parents who can't afford it, let's say. Nothing luxurious, but proper preschools for kids whose single parent has to go to work. Would you vote for that?

What about 100% government funded medical care for the child for its first five years of life, when a child absolutely needs professional medical supervision in the early stages of development?

First, you'd have to support a completely medically accurate and fulsome curriculum of sex education, from about 10 years old. Why there? Because puberty and all those Satanic urges are right around the corner for almost all children. They ought to go into the battle well armed, right? Doesn't seem so bad, right? Well, unfortunately, many of these kids are going to start experimenting sexually early on. Are you willing to put taxpayer funded condoms in every school nurse's office, which children can take without telling their parents?

Would you offer government subsidy for IUD's regardless of income status and age provided you're at the age of reprodution? So any female who's had her first period can say "Just to be safe, I'm going to get an IUD because I don't want to have a child." And the government pays for it? They're inexpensive compared to welfare for 18 years, right?

...except that sometimes the universe defies our "common sense." Amazingly, this quite literally infinitely intricate shape is merely a logical inevitability. By this I mean, from the rules selected (z^2=z+c, the iteration process, checking if it remains bounded, etc.), this shape is the only one that could ever arise, independent of any sort of god, or of us, or of the physical universe, or of any sort of supernatural force external to the physical universe. If you were to truly perform the tedious task of breaking every step of this down to its purely logical roots, you would see it for the logical inevitability that it truly is. This is what makes math one of the most intriguing subjects. It doesn't need to be created by anyone or anything. It doesn't need to be caused, or to be brought into existence. It just is.

Human life begins with the creation of a human egg and sperm.

Math doesn't "exist" in any sense of the word, nor is it a product of anything.

 Math is an extension of logic, so when you argue that math comes from God you are arguing that logic also comes from God, which is incoherent.

Let's start at the beginning. Do you believe God is subject to the laws of logic?

If you say he's not, then your belief in him is irrational by definition.

Neither option makes sense. Humans didn't invent math, we discovered it.

Math doesn't "control" the universe in any coherent sense of the word. It's not acting, is not making decisions, it just is.

You should have started off with this. Yours is a creationist argument.

To me, this argument is not enough to prove the existence of God, specially if it's the God of christians which is what you refer to, I suppose.

I would argue though that creationism can prove the existence of a "universal mind" or a "universal conciousness", but God is not just this according to religious people. For theists, God is omniscient, omnipotent, almighty, vengeful and loving, harsh and compassionate, unforgiving and merciful, in other words God is a mother fucker but also a saint, which is, as you noted, soundly ridiculous.

When you, christians, start to understand that your bible is pure nonsense, I think we can sit down and talk like the big boys we are.

If Mexico launched rockets in to Texas 4 times a year for 20 years then sent in terrorists to slaughter 1400 people indiscriminately I would level every building with in 50 miles of the boarder.  Mexico could use the same excuse as Hamas and the Palestinians for launching rockets and terrorism.

I think you're wasting our precious time.

If you had used the word "universal mind" instead of "God" I would have engaged the discussion. The word "God" has been so prostituted by religions that I'd rather not use it.

Life.

What actually is it?

And what singles out human life from all other life, other than human bias?

Okay, lets do the math.

Jesus said majority of people go to hell, so lets say its 60%, although I am being generous here.

10 people have 10 babies.

60% go to hell.

Population of hell: 12

Population of heaven: 8

Another case:

10 people abort 10 babies

10 people go to hell, 10 babies go to heaven.

Population of heaven 10

Population of hell: 10

So yeah, as we can see with this basic math Jesus provided, abortions indeed decrease hell population.

Plus, every parent wants whats best for her child even if she has to suffer, and abortion is objectively best for the child.

So God is wrong when he punishes people?

Sure it is. There are different levels of pain.

Great. It wouldnt be the first time Christians have justified rape.

Did God kill all of those people? Yes, he didn't prevent them from being killed. He is pro-abortion until 10 years after birth.

No. It decreases hell population because fetus is prevented from sinning and wont go to hell. His parents most likely go to hell anyway.

1. They didnt deserve it

2. Their pain is more important than my pain

3. That I have responsibility to please others at my expense (if you believe in this, then give me all your money now).

The demographers Toshiko Kaneda and Carl Haub estimate the number of humans that were ever born to be about 100 billion. Applying a child mortality rate of 50% this would mean that about 50 billion children died throughout human history. This is of course a rough estimate, but it gives us some idea of just how many children died.

God is OK with abortion.

I thought I refuted this point already

You thought wrong.

If it isn't part of his plan, then yes it isn't

So has no rules, has a plan and saving children from drowning is not his plan? But it needs to be my plan?

God is outside of the ballpark

You mean he is a hypocrite?

Because he would be interfering

Like when he interfered when he came as Jesus to save people, or when he created the world in such a way that children drown?

Yeah, your story is getting dumber as we speak.

As GOD principle is sound.

Atheists tend to be less accepting of mythological hypotheses wherein Man simply invents GODS in the image of himself. 

Atheists do not necessarily dismiss the GOD principle.

True. I will use it as an argument for Lucifer, the true God.

Albert Einstein's greatest contribution to math was in what is known as ''Einstein's Field Equations. '' These are equations created by Einstein that show how stress-energy influence movement in the study of space and time. The equations Einstein created fall under the study of calculus and geometry.

Einstein said in 1954, one year before he died, “The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends,” the message reads. “No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.”

Stephen Hawking was an American scientist who made outstanding contributions to mathematics through his work on black holes and the mathematics of space-time. The formula he discovered specifies the area of a sphere that is contained in a three-dimensional volume in four dimensions.

He says, " It’s my view that the simplest explanation is that there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization: there is probably no heaven and afterlife either. I think belief in an afterlife is just wishful thinking. There is no reliable evidence for it, and it flies in the face of everything we know in science. I think that when we die we return to dust. "

Okay, so it doesnt prove your God.

That God lets children drown?

Am I speaking spanish here? Do you need a google translate?

Nobody is like anyone.

Yeah, its not wise to save children from drowning.

I dont see how God saving a child from drowning breaks free will of the world.

No, I am saying that aborting fetuses increases heaven population.

I dont care how you call it. Do you have an argument?

"They wouldnt have depression if aborted"

"Abortion doesnt solve anything"

Pick one.

Of course Israel was attacked first,

But they still had/have options on what amount/degree they were/are going to' commit to.

Retaliation is a common concept,

Common thinking logical to hit back, show enemy they cannot attack without risk,

Though some argue Hamas 'wanted Israel to strike back, just not to this extent,

Though who 'knows the minds of Hamas leadership?

But further in,

'Beyond retaliation, as Israel seems committed, what are their objectives, are they attainable?

"With strong American backing, Israel has defined two clear goals: bringing home all of the hostages and destroying Hamas, the Islamic militant group that has governed Gaza since ousting the Palestinian Authority in 2007."

What motivates objective?

My theory is,

Loyalty to tribe stolen,

Wanting to safeguard tribe not stolen, by showing what such kidnapping will result in.

What motivates objective 2?

My theory is,

Wanting to safeguard tribe not stolen, by destroying group that has continually encouraged and attacked one's tribe. That it cannot do so in the future.

You mean painting an assumption of your specific God.

I can also assure you that many children drown.

So God refuses to save child from drowning, but expects me to do it? So God is a hypocrite "rules for you but not for me" kinda guy.

rules for you but not for me

Ah yes.

But most adults go to hell anyway.

So...

Plus, abortion is objectively the best thing for the fetus according to Christian religion

I am pretty sure that there are people who dont want to live and who suffer a lot. 

All of that could have been prevented with simple abortion.

Excellent! This is the reason materialistic atheists are hypocrites. They're just substituting one god for another.

So why doesnt Jesus save the child from drowning? Why does he just watch children drown?

"I cant explain this, so God is an explanation" fallacy.

Abortion is always necessary to save fetus from life in this horrible world.

To make a bold statement such as that is in fact extremely offensive to individuals today who live with disabilities and developmental complications, because it implies that their lives are too hard, so they don’t matter. It takes away meaning from the lives of those most vulnerable among us. 

Also, since you are Christian, you should celebrate abortions because it sends fetuses straight to heaven. Its basically the best thing that can happen to a fetus.

Christians say that their God lets evil happen.

So should we be like Christian God?

Should we just let evil happen?

If I see a drowning child, should I save that child?

Christian God obviously wont.

"I think whatever Ben Shapiro thinks."

Welcome back

The origins of Israel can be traced back to Abraham, who is considered the patriarch of both Judaism (through his son Isaac) and Islam (through his son Ishmael). Abraham's descendants are believed to have been enslaved by the Egyptians for several centuries before settling in the region of Canaan, which roughly corresponds to modern-day Israel. The name "Israel" is derived from Jacob, Abraham's grandson, who was renamed "Israel" by the Hebrew God as mentioned in the Bible.

Around 1000 B.C., King David ruled the region, and his son King Solomon is credited with the construction of the first holy temple in ancient Jerusalem. In approximately 931 B.C., the region was divided into two kingdoms: Israel in the north and Judah in the south.

In 722 B.C., the northern kingdom of Israel was invaded and destroyed by the Assyrians, while in 568 B.C., the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the first temple. It was subsequently replaced by a second temple around 516 B.C. Over the following centuries, the land of modern-day Israel saw various rulers, including the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Seljuk Turks, Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamluks, Islamists, and others.

From 1517 to 1917, the region that encompasses present-day Israel, along with much of the Middle East, was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

During the Ottoman Empire's reign, a diaspora of Jewish people from their homeland occurred, leading to widespread oppression of Jews worldwide. In response, the Zionist movement was sparked in 1880, as Jews slowly began to migrate back to Israel.

After World War I ended in 1918 with an Allied victory, the 400-year rule of the Ottoman Empire came to an end, and Great Britain assumed control over what would later become known as Palestine (encompassing modern-day Israel, Palestine, and Jordan).

Zionists sought to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine, leading to significant Jewish immigration and the establishment of settlements. Between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 Jews relocated to Palestine, with an additional 40,000 settling in the area between 1904 and 1914. Many Jews, fearing persecution during the Nazi era, found refuge in Palestine and embraced Zionism.

Following the Holocaust and the end of World War II, the focus of the Zionist movement shifted toward creating an independent Jewish state. This endeavor encountered resistance from the Arab population in Palestine, leading to ongoing tensions. An Arab nationalist movement emerged in response.

In 1947, the United Nations decided to partition Palestine into two states: a Jewish state of Israel and an Arab state of Palestine. While Israel agreed to the partition, the Arab nations rejected it, leading to violence initiated by the Arab Palestinians.

Almost immediately, the Arab League, consisting of states such as Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia, rejected the UN's partition and launched an attack. It is essential to clarify that the Arab states initiated the conflict, not the Jewish state of Israel.

Israel defended itself, and after more than nine months of conflict, Israeli forces took control of most of the land designated by the UN for Palestine. Egypt assumed control of the Gaza Strip, while Jordan (then TransJordan) took over the West Bank. The original plan for a Palestinian state was abandoned due to Palestinian actions.

While many Jews saw this as a victory, many Palestinian civilians were displaced and fled their homes. It is crucial to emphasize that the responsibility for this displacement lies with the Arab nations. These refugees sought refuge in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, leading to escalating tensions in the following decades, including intermittent fighting caused by extremist Islamic terror groups targeting Israeli civilians.

In 1964, the Palestinian Liberation Organization (P.L.O) was formed to consolidate the power of various small Palestinian groups fighting against the Jewish state of Israel. In the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel successfully defended against attacks from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan, resulting in significant territorial gains, including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and the Sinai Peninsula.

In 1987, a collision between an Israeli Defense Forces' (IDF) truck and a civilian car led to the outbreak of the First Intifada, a violent uprising led by Palestinian militias. The ensuing violence resulted in around 200 Israeli deaths and approximately 1,500 Israeli civilian casualties. Israel's defensive actions also led to significant casualties among Palestinian militia groups.

Following the First Intifada, Israel agreed to a temporary peace treaty with the P.L.O, extending until the year 2000. It's worth noting that this agreement came after the P.L.O had initiated attacks in response to a car accident. Subsequent peace talks after 2000 failed to yield an agreement, primarily due to disputes over issues such as the status of Jerusalem, the rights of refugees, and the expansion of Jewish settlements in Palestinian territories.

In 2000, Ariel Sharon, who would later become Israel's Prime Minister, visited the Temple Mount, home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, an action perceived as offensive by many Palestinians. This led to violent protests, riots, attacks, and suicide bombings, sparking the Second Intifada, which lasted for nearly five years and effectively ended prospects for peace. The violence ceased in 2005 when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, returning the land to Palestinian control, despite earlier attacks.

In 2006, Hamas, a militant Sunni Islamist group, won the Palestinian legislative elections. Many countries, including Israel, consider Hamas a terrorist organization due to its use of tactics like suicide bombings and its call for the destruction of Israel. Tensions and clashes between Hamas and Israel continued.

In 2017, Hamas called for the formation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, but this call did not formally recognize Israel as a state. Consequently, Israel did not accept the proposal, as it would essentially threaten its existence as a nation.

How? If he's all powerful and he has a plan, then you don't have free will, just the illusion of it. He's already planned for everything you or anyone else will ever do in their lives. He can't be surprised, because he's all knowing. 

So if God has a plan that you don't have to follow, is he all powerful and all knowing?