aql_reason

And again you are appealing to authority , the authority that you now claim to be fallacy. <<<obviously a word you don't understand the meaning of.

Then what happens to those that refuse to pay this protection money that you call "tax". 

And you are the one that has point blank on three occasions refused to answer these questions >>>Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?  Simple yes or no answers will do.

Then you are lacking education in your own subject. It is a fact that those that didn't convert to Islam have either been put to the sword or FORCED to pay Jizya if they live in Muslim lands. Which we have already discussed.

We have covered this too. And I pointed out YOUR "IF"  is subjective. HERE> #113 .  That is to say, to some it may make sense while to others it doesn't.  And YOU have shown this to be the case because  you have said yourself that: "Scholars are not unanimous on the punishment for apostasy."#154 So when have undecided scholars that you say we should consult although they are undecided between themselves. and then turned around and called it "fallacy.  FFS at least  be honest enough to admit that your statement was wrong to begin with.

I know what the guidelines are. I have quoted one of those scholars of which there are many. 

And of course it shouldn't happen now. Are you saying it doesn't happen  now? 

 already ready respoded to that above HERE>> #156

 Formal means -  Official. 

So Wikipedia and the English dictionary are in agreement. Apostasy is the act of giving up your religious beliefs. OR leaving  a religion 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I.e OFICIALLY leaving a religion  is apostasy and in this case a Muslim officially leaving ISLAM.. Stop playing silly word games. 

It can be local TERRORIST violence too. FFS! how old are you?  England  has suffered terrorist attacks carried out by "home grown " Muslim terrorists.

Iran, just today  have suffered  what they called a "terrorist" attack with two explosions near a cemetery. They don't know yet if they were "home grown"  resistance TERRORIST or foreign TERRORISTS. 

You swerved these two questions>>>   Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?

Listen. It doesn't matter how much you attempt to apologise for this barbaric practice. It doesn't alter the stone cold fact that the punishment for leaving the ISLAMIC faith is death. So ISLAM is an enforced religious ideology.

But again YOU are appealing to the "Scholars" that you have said to do such a thing is "fallacy".

Well it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else calls it, does it? All that is irrelevant.   It doesn't alter the fact that the penalty for a Muslim  leavening Islam is DEATH!

Hence, to enforce a religious ideology onto someone that doesn't accept it is not a choice, is it?  It is fkn terrorism. And it is religious terrorism in the case of the Muslim apostate. ..... and anyone else that doesn't believe in Allah and that Mohammad was his prophet.  I have always maintained the the worst victims of Islam are Muslims themselves.

Yes. Formal means -  Official.  So what ?

So Wikipedia and the English dictionary are in agreement. Apostasy is the act of giving up your religious beliefs. OR leaving  a religion 

"Scholars"  I see. So those scholars that you believe are best informed on such matters and are the people that we [I]  should be turning to and approaching for wisdom on such matter, are not in agreement?  These will be the very same educated scholars that you insist that I should be listening to help me in  forming my own ideas and opinions . 

 Tell me how can anyone form a valid opinion on these schools of thought when these schools cannot even make their own fkn minds up after almost 1500 years!!?

Every Imam I have listened to and the few Islamic scholars that I have read, have all agreed, that the penalty for leaving the Islamic religion is  death.

How about this ISLAMIC scholar?

Muhammad al- Bukhari 

This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017)

So one has no CHOICE to leave the Islamic RELIGION unless he wishes to die. Which in turn means he  is FORCED to stay through fear of death. <<<That is barbaric.

And I rest my case. 

You of course have a right to appeal.

You said you as a human cannot accept anything illogical. 

Miracle:

a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

So, either

A. using your logic, you should be an atheist. 

B. Your God is not all powerful, because (like you said) he can't do anything illogical. 

So, God can defy logic, because in order to be all powerful by definition, you would have to create logic. 

Then he isn't all powerful...........

Again, you can't say:

"God is all powerful."

and 

"God can only break the rules of physics and nature. Not logic."

Thats a direct contradiction into the nature of God. 

A creation can limit the creators' abilities, based on the premise that they can't comprehend the creators' abilities?

Thats funny.

Then your God, isn't all powerful, if he can't do impossible things, period. 

Ok. I understand your argument, but your wording is very poor.

You're basically saying that God can himself defy logic, because he created it, but in order to be a fair God, he must represent only what we find logical as evidence for him and his teachings.

Thats fine to argue. 

However, that doesn't contradict the fact that we humans are also triune in body, mind, and spirit. So why can't God? 

Also, what is illogical about God coming down to earth in a human body, claim to be God, and perform many supernatural miracles to prove it. 

Thats not illogical if you believe in the supernatural. There is an argument to be made about the logic of that if you're an atheist.

But if you believe in the supernatural, and a God that can do anything, it makes more sense for him to appear and do supernatural thing to prove himself rather than claim divinity from a man. 

You claim my faith is blind, yet you base your religion based on the fact that one man claimed to have a revelation from God and had others write down his revelation. That takes a lot of faith my friend. 

So, the miracle of God coming down in the body of a man isn't illogical then. 

What happened to God appearing to us logically? 

What's more reasonable?

Taking the words of a man who describes Jesus 500 years after Jesus lived as truth. 

or

Taking the words of people who literally walked with Jesus, as truth

So, in order to understand what parts of the Bible true and which parts are false, we need to line it up with the Qur'an, which was written 500 years after the Bible was completed, in order to understand what parts of the Bible are true?

And you are basing this off of the fact that a man said God told him? 

That is less reasonable by a long shot. 

So, we must read the bible, by first reading the Qur'an then read the Bible, but just throw out the other parts that don't agree with the Qur'an, based soley on the claim of a man, who lived 500 years after the Bible was finished, and claimed to have a revelation from God. 

That is not logical, I'm sorry.  

Then why:

Did Muhammed fight in or oversee many battles, many of which were offensive ones.

Did Muhammed order the execution and maiming of many people, including massacres.

Does the Qur’an teach Jihad as a means to spread the faith and there is no possible question that this Jihad is principally warfare.  Much of the Qur’an is advice for battle and conquest.

Does the Hadith agree with this and even expands on it.

Was Muhammad’s vision was put into practice and by AD 700 his followers created one of the largest empires in history.

Was Muhammed promised immediate access to heaven to those who died in war for Allah.

Based on the doctrine of abrogation, what is acknowledged as the last or nearly the last of the suras is Sura 9—the most violent of all the Suras.  In this one, Muslims are told to no longer compromise with Jews or Christians, but to attack and defeat them.

Thats laughable:

«لَا تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ الْيَهُودَ، فَيَقْتُلُهُمُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ حَتَّى يَخْتَبِىءَ الْيَهُودِيُّ مِنْ وَرَاءِ الْحَجَرِ وَالشَّجَرِ، فَيَقُولُ الْحَجَرُ وَالشَّجَرُ: يَامُسْلِمُ يَاعَبْدَاللهِ هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ خَلْفِي فَتَعَالَ فَاقْتُلْهُ إِلَّا الْغَرْقَدَ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْ شَجَرِ الْيَهُود»

(The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Except Al-Gharqad, for it is a tree of the Jews

NO, Wrong!.  Read [A] above as to what I actually wrote and not what you wished me to have written, so stop trying to put words in my mouth.That is being deceitful.

 I  specifically choses the word "chooses". #113  . So to repeat myself for clarity : I don't fkn care what religion one chooses to follow as long as it has no baring on my life and the lives of my children and grandchildren.#113 Only you have used the word "force".

Again you are ignoring that  which  I  have specifically concerning "religious ideology".  Stop swerving. It is a yes or no answer.

So are you saying Muslims/Islam defines apostasy different to other religions?  Why don't you define it for us ?

The Divine essence cannot cease to be what it is.

Again, at risk of pointlessly repeating myself, there was no change to the Divine essence at the incarnation. Because the Divine essence cannot change. God is immutable.

When we say "God became man" we mean the divine essence was united to something that was created, i.e the body of Jesus, but the D.E. itself did not "become" created in the sense that it ceased being creator and was now created. That doesn't even make logical sense to say that and it's not what we teach.

There was a very ancient heresy called Kenosis which taught the D.E. lost some of it's attributes during the incarnation. We beat those guys and that is not what we teach. To formulate it mathematically, A=Divine Essence. B=created flesh. 

We are not saying, A turned into B and therefore ceased being A.  We are also not saying A and B were united in such a way that they became a hybrid blend of each other (C). (Both of those mistaken views would entail the contradiction you're speaking about)

What we ARE saying is A was united to B (AB) but both natures remained perfectly intact. The human nature was not swallowed up by the Divine, and the Divine did not cease being divine and turn human. 

I want you to really give some thought to that before responding.

Accept the Quran does exactly this. How does Allah create man? He breathes into the clay and it becomes man, correct?

How does Jesus create birds in  Surah Al-Ma'idah? 

"How I taught you writing, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. How you moulded a bird from clay—by My Will—and breathed into it and it became a ˹real˺ bird—by My Will. "

Did Allah take Jesus as a partner in creation? If no, why did he give him the same exact power to create that Allah alone should possess? 

Why did Allah AND Gibreel create the body of Jesus together?

Surah At-Tahrim

˹There is˺ also ˹the example of˺ Mary, the daughter of ’Imrân, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her ˹womb˺ through Our angel ˹Gabriel˺.1 She testified to the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the ˹sincerely˺ devout.

If Allah alone is creator and giver of life, what in the world is going on in this Aya? Was Gibreel Allah's partner in creating Isa? 

If Allah has no partners, it certainly seems Gibreel and Isa create and help him create in identical manners. 

YOUR EMBARRASSING QUR’AN STUPID QUOTE:  “Allah is the Arabic word for God. It is the same God for all abrahamic religions. So your sentence is contradictory because Christians follow Allah.” 

How can your Allah God be the same God as the Christians when Allah said to Muslims to not be friends with the Jews and Christians? GET IT MUSLIM FOOL? HUH?

aql_reason wrote:  So you care when religion enforces things on other people that don't agree with it, yes?

And you have used the word en-"FORCE"- es  .

aql_reason wrote:  So you care when religion chooses things on other people that don't agree with it, yes

So, tell me,  is it wrong for someone or group to en- force their religious ideology onto others. Yes or No?

And what is the punishment for apostates in Islam?

Pragmatism is not about outcomes or results but practicality which means if something can be carried out without much effort.

Even in the defintion you gave, it doesn't mention anything about outcomes.

In the example of christinity, it's not about pragmatism because the christian beliefs remain, and you and me know very well these beliefs have no practicality or utility at all.

you're unable to see that what you just described is an example of dogmatism, then it's impossible to make you understand anything that goes against your dogma.

Oh, dogma, that reminds me of a ma'am that thinks exactly like you. Lol.

Islam is a way of life so focuses on all aspects of life: social, political, legal, etc. It rejects secularism.

Secularism is a hoax anyway. There is no freedom for all. Not everyone has rights even in western countries.

The more lawful a society, the less freedom it has

 Freedom is overrated. Truth matters more. 

No. Pragmatism focuses on utility, the logic I present focuses on common sense.

You know, christianity was always an obstacle for the progress of the West, but instead of getting rid of it, it was prefered to keep the good which is the Christian moral, and decided to leave the useless nonsense for the believers: rituals and stupid beliefs. 

So in the end it was a win-win decision, nobody thought about the utility but that everyone gets the best out of it. We don't need motherfucking priests that impose ilogical measures on people. We trust on logic and common sense for our lives, and the beliefs remain personal.

God in His divine essence did not go from creator to "created" at the time of the Incarnation.

And He was not in His divine essence simultaneously created and creator at the time of the Incarnation.

The person of Jesus Christ, if we are using Chalcedonian Christology (which I believe is the correct one) is fully God and fully man.

In His divine nature he is uncreated. His humanity was created.

Because He has two natures, what happens in time and space to one does not say anything about the other necessarily.

What I mean is, because His human nature came into being, that says nothing about His divine nature, which we know is eternal. 

The contradiction you're trying to make could also be played back the other way. 

Can Allah create a body he cannot inhabit? 

Yes or no? If yes, then you admit the Incarnation is not logically contradictory. If no, Allah is not all powerful. 

I understand as a Shia you do not accept the dilemma that the Sunni's face with the eternal Quran theology. However, 85 percent of Muslims do believe what I wrote. Are they in a logical contradiction as well? 

[A] And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.  Although you know nothing at all about me , my background or my education. That is a assumptive schoolboy error to make of anyone that you have only ever met in an online forum and especially for someone  such as yourself that has only been on this forum less than a week. 

Flaws only according to you and the unfounded assumptions you have made about me after  only five exchanges with me. Also see [A] above.

And let us not forget that  it was you that appealed to the authority of Christians and Scientist. I have simply pointed out it means nothing. It is as you have suggested yourself, one can read and listen and then one has to make up ones own mind. So stop contradicting yourself. 

Yes appeal to authority is a fallacy.

So now you are saying to appeal to authority is "fallacy", but have suggested above this is what I should  be doing. You really like to contradict yourself don't you.

This is you appealing to the authority that you now are calling i" fallacy";

aql_reason wrote: I#105: It is up to the historians and Christians to interpret that.

Stephen wrote: Why? 

aql_reason wrote: Who interprets science? Scientists? Who interprets History? Historians. If you don't understand how to interpret something you look at what those people say. And if what they say makes sense, you take it. #108

But now you are saying that appealing to authority "fallacy"!!!!

Do you understand the definition of fallacy? A fallacy is only an idea that a lot of people think is true but is in fact false.  

I agree.  But there has to be reason for that trust  doesn't there? And not just opinions based on unsupported  faith or belief.

Nope. What I have said was  "Religion in itself, to me makes no sense, " HERE>>#113

... feel the need to have to leap to the defence of someone that only they feel is being victimised and bullied.

I won't respond for a while. But don't confuse that as me to have "ran away" from the thread. I only leave a thread when it becomes pointless, circular and for me, has ran its course as far as my own input is concerned.

I have told you on at least three fkn occasions now, that my problem is with the bible and how it has come down to us over the last two millennia. Its full of holes, dead ends and half stories and nonsense, on the surface.  And told by people that were not even around when Jesus was believed to be walking the earth. IMO.

And let us not forget that  it was you that appealed to the authority of Christians and Scientist. I have simply pointed out it means nothing. It is as you have suggested yourself, one can read and listen and then one has to make up ones own mind. So stop contradicting yourself. 

 FFS!  This thread is concerned with religion on a forum dedicated SPECIFICALY to religion. It is not concerned with anything else.  And I am discussing religion.   If you wish to discuss all the above mentioned above  in bold and underlined, post on the relative sub forum that accommodates for those specifics.

I think I will leave it there with you now. It has already been suggested that I  am one of those "circling you with a wolf pack"  and accused of "taking over"  the thread, although I have only responded to  posts, your posts mainly. . And this is a free forum that is open to anyone interested...... to post on.

I always measure the ideologies according to their results.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 1145 Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (p.b.u.h) said, "Our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, comes every night down on the nearest Heaven to us when the last third of the night remains, saying: "Is there anyone to invoke Me, so that I may respond to invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me, so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone seeking My forgiveness, so that I may forgive him?"

If Allah can come down into his created heaven, why couldn't he come down in a created body? 

Becoming incarnate doesn't mean that his eternal, unchanging nature as uncreated creator has changed, it just means he added flesh to that nature. His essence remains exactly the same. 

More importantly, the main point I would like to get across, is that Sunni Muslims believe the Quran is Kalam Allah, and it's one of his Sifat, that is to say, they believe the Quran is uncreated. 

Imam Bukhari narrates in his book Khalq Af'aal al-Ibaad:

Sufyan ibn Uyayna narrated: I met our teachers for seventy years among them Amr ibn Dinar, all of them used to say, "The Quran is the speech of Allah, and it is not created."

Obviously you don't believe the Quran is God, HOWEVER, what we have is a  paradigm of an eternal, uncreated Sifat becoming a physical, paper and ink book. Since, at some point in history, the Quran became a Kitab, a literal book, you have the eternal uncreated becoming something that is eternal and created, namely, pages and glue. 

Yet no Muslim would say the eternal nature of the Quran changed. So now we have a Quran that has two natures, an eternal uncreated nature and a physical, temporal book nature. 

So, if I as a Christian, believe the eternal, uncreated Word of God became a Man in Jesus Christ, I really don't see on what basis Islam can criticize that based on their own teaching, of Allah coming down into the heaven (something created) and the Quran having two natures, an uncreated nature and a created nature. 

1. God is uncreated

2. Jesus was created (at least His body)

3. The Creator cannot be both creator and created

4. Jesus cannot be God as per step three. 

5. Therefore Jesus is not God and the Incarnation did not happen.

Before I move forward with my response, would you agree I am representing you accurately?

BTW, are you a Sunni Muslim or a Shia?

"If it makes sense is subjective".'

Richard Dawkins is a scientist and author and an atheist. He has books written about God and the Bible. 

Different  Christian factions disagree on the interpretation of the bible. MUSLMS believe that Jesus was only a prophet and NOT the son of god. Muslims believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross where Christians do.  I personally believe the Old Testament and all the characters within it. I don't believe the New Testament in the way it has come down to us and has been interpreted over time although I have good reason to believe a man called Jesus existed in 1st century Judaea.. This is before we get onto the beliefs of Hindus and Sheikhs. So you do see the problem concerning your argument for "Historians" and "Christians" being the arbiters  of biblical truth, don't you?

I agree. But you do understand the difference between someone being  "influenced" and that of  a forced ideology, don't you?

Which I as a free person refuse to accept. I am not a practicing Christian but give me Christianity over a barbaric enforced ideology any day.

Well then you are showing ignorance of your own intolerant  ideology:

And there it is again,  "just a tiny few". 😂 That will be the "just 1% of 1.7 billion Muslims" (17 million) that you mentioned earlier and the "tiny few" that Western MSM keep trying to convince us is only a hand full of crazy Muslims that can't do much harm.

Indeed, but you seem to keep forgetting that you are on a religion forum, and the particular ideology being discussed here is religious ideology and not political ideology.

 No. Islam has one goal. Islam is intolerant of other beliefs and here Church and state a separate. Unlike Islam. So lets not go around in circles on that one.

But haven't you just said that Islam is all about "submission"?  And Jizya was a tax on Christians and Jews aka Dhimmi  that happened to be living in any Muslim lands. It was a protection racket and still is.

And what would the  "1% tiny minority of the 1.7billion" Muslims call it?

But we are talking religion & RELIGIOUS practices and how Christianity and Judaism has brought itself into the 21st century. America does not sentence anyone to death because of their chosen religion. Have you not heard of the First Amendment. Its top of  list - the right to practice your religion freely.

I don't know what I am.

Muslims would call me an infidel or simply a filthy dirty Kufar. Some  Christians such as the Reverend Tradesecret would call me a heretic and has called me the "slime of Satan".    AND! "dumb as fuck". <<<<< FKN BIG mistake that turned out to be for the absolute bible ignorant TWAT!

Religion in itself, to me makes no sense, but there is a lot to the  bible once the surface has been scratched. but that is simply my opinion and I have no intentions of changing anyone's point of views or beliefs.

My problem has always been with the scriptures i.e the BIBLE. I don't fkn care what religion one chooses to follow as long as it has no baring on my life and the lives of my children and grandchildren.

No one has set out a single premise that I can see. The title simply states Islam V Christianity. where the author has simply stated ;

So, unless it went over your head completely, you and I have been having said suggested "conversation". 

So why don't you set out your premise from the side of Islam?  On why, if or not you believe  YouFound_Lxam is wrong or right. 

 Anyway. Nice discussion. You put your points as I have mine and  I have enjoyed it.

Impossible things are called miracles. Miracles happen both in the Qur'an and the Bible. Don't tell me you can't accept those things. 

Red Herring right in my face Lol.

You also just contradicted yourself. 

Either God is all powerful, or he isn't.

If he isn't all powerful, then that means there is a force more powerful than him.

What created human logic, and the rules of the Universe? God. Who can break rules. God. We may not be able to comprehend the breaking of the rules, but he still can.

If you are saying God can't do something, you are saying your God isn't all powerful. 

There you have it folks. The Islamic God is not all powerful. 

God is a force that is beyond our comprehension. Again, he created logic, and he can destroy it. If your God is bound by logic, then he is not all powerful. 

Your God is bound by logic, and my God created logic. Hmmmmmmmm................

In that case be an atheist. The Qur'an contains many illogical miracles that can only be explained by "God did" if they are true. 

For instance, the Qurans scientific accuracy for its time? 

Your logic is that if you can't explain something to a T, then it is illogical. In that case:

Be an atheist.

Ok? And in the Bible, Jesus claims to be God

No. What I am saying is that if there is all loving, all just, and all-powerful God, violence for that religion would be unneeded, because God doesn't need anyone to defend him. 

So, to understand this right:

God made it look like Jesus died on a cross, to deceive the ones who wanted to be deceived. 

Weren't you just talking about using logic?

If someone in that time period sees a man who claims to be God, die, and rise again, and they believe it, then they are one of the ones who want to be deceived? 

But if another guy comes along and said God said it was fake, then he's right, right? 

Now that's logic for ya. 

Ok so if the Bible is God's word.................then how did man corrupt his word, because in the Qur'an it says no one can alter Allahs words................

Pretty contradicting.

Woah. I wasn't talking about oppression. I was talking about God. 

Fighting for the oppressed is fine.

I'm asking why do you need to fight for God? 

Like even if you're fighting oppression in the name of Allah, I think is fine, but I'm talking about directly attacking people based upon religion by itself. 

Good. Then you won't mind showing me where the BIBLE actually state that Jesus died on the cross or anywhere else come to that.

Why

I haven't suggested once that you, they or anyone else should listen to me.

I see. So the Son of God had a loss of faith about the one  that sent him? 

No. Because they are changing my country, society and culture with their own.  There is a difference. Church and state are separate in Britain.  Islam is Islam, there is nothing else.  

Indeed , that is true where Islam intends to change the culture, society and way of life of one nation with the full intent of replacing it with Islam.

So then, we have established that Isis it a MUSLIM terrorist organisation that follow and take their instructions from the Quran. See, wasn't hard was it? 

The question of interpretation is a Muslim problem, that only Muslims can remedy, correct and alter. But the thing there is, they can't can they?

Because according to Islam and Muslims, the Quran is the last and the perfect unalterable word of god. 

So then.  1%. of 1.7 billion followers is 17 MILLION <<<< that must be that "just a tiny few" the western MSM keep telling us about.

Yes. that will be the "civil war" that western MSM don't with us to know that is actually MUSLIMS butchering and murdering other MUSLIMS, which I did mention.

I know they have murdered in the name of their religious ideology and their gods, but MUSLIMS are still doing so. Not just to the Wester civilisations but their own people too.

And you keep ignoring the FACT that Christianity, like Judaism ,has dragged itself into the 21st century. Islam is stuck in the dark ages and cannot ever move forward, change or reform. THAT is a big problem for Muslims.

You again are ignoring the point. Jesus the god of Christians has never commanded that his followers to go out into the world and kill others for simply not believing in him. But the god of the Quran does.

I  agree. but we here are talking about being murdered simply for not believing,  and not because someone wants to harm us.

FFS!  it hasn't reformed in any way at all. The Quran is believed by MUSLIMS to be the perfect unalterable word of god. Nothing has change since its conception in the 14th century.

What has Islam reformed from to?  What changes has it made? There was abrogation that made its ideology a thousand times more vile , barbaric and murderous and  than it was to begin with. 

But we are "specifically"  discussing religion. So  can you expand on that. Keeping in mind we are speaking religious practices. While also keeping in mind that Israel doesn't have the death penalty.

What you believe about me is irrelevant.  And I do have something to say and have said it. And will continue to keep saying it.

That's kind of you. 

But its not , is it?   It is  titled "Islam vs. Christianity" LOL.

Again, what is stopping Jesus (God) from creating a body, and taking on that body?

How is it illogical?

So, your telling God he can't do something. Thats new. 

What is illogical about God, creating a body, for him to use to come down to earth in? 

The Qur'an has significantly greater illogical claims than this, and this claim isn't even illogical.

Morality is objective. Ethics are subjective. 

Born of a virgin. How does a fetus just pop into existence? 

No one is arguing violence isn't justified in certain situations. We are arguing whether or not it's justified to defend religion. 

Why would God create a whole religion on purpose that contradicts the Quran, if the Quran is indeed true? Why would God deceive people into that? 

Question. Wasn't the Bible the first revelation of Allah before the Quran? 

Why do you need to fight for God? Why isn't he perfectly capable of holding his own against his own creation?

There's like one Muslim guy here who's getting wolfpacked, so I don't want to pile on to that. Here are a few quick thoughts

Neither faith is founded in "reason" but in revelation.

I'll agree it's unreasonable to assume that God always had a human form from whenever He first came into existence (if such a point can be said to exist), but it's not unreasonable to assume that God could wed a part of Himself to the human form. The question here becomes: what are the limits of what God can hypothetically do to Himself? And the correct answer is "we don't know".

To assert that God couldn't make Himself human or into a Trinity is just that: an unproven and unproveable assertion. Just as much as it's an assertion that God can and did do such. Neither Christianity nor Islam came into existence because some brilliant philosopher reasoned his way into it but because, both allege, God revealed certain otherwise unknowable knowledge to mankind.

The New Testament's strength, I think, lies in how little it said. Paul was given a mission to preach the Gospel, but he wasn't given perfect knowledge of what the ideal culture or form of government ought to look like. And he didn't pretend that he knew. There were generalities like "be moral as opposed to immoral", but this allowed for improvements in our collective understanding of what morality looked like. Paul didn't outright say "abolish slavery" but at the same time he didn't say not to abolish slavery. A Christian society wasn't impeded from adapting on this issue because of its Christian faith.

In short, its authors didn't demand "all Christians from now onward must live EXACTLY like 1st century Eastern Mediterranean Greeks did!" Which is good, because after a while Christians were no longer living in a 1st century Hellenic civilization.

Jesus. Was. Not. Created.

He has always existed. 

The Bible and the Qur'an explicitly point out that Jesus was born of a virgin. 

God created everything right? 

Why can't God make a physical body for himself, and come to earth?

Why is that a contradiction?

Jesus = God the Son

God the son wasn't created.

Jesus was never created. Only the body he was in was. 

What is stopping God from creating a body for himself to come down in physical form in? 

Saying:

If I believe my religion is right then violence is justified.

Is like saying: 

If I believe I am the opposite gender, then violence for anyone who opposes that is justified. 

Belief in God (especially a loving God) should not justify violence. 

Your right. Eyewitness testimonies are not the most reliable piece of information, but that tied into the fact that you have hundreds of these eyewitnesses, recorded drastically changing their lives for this miracle they saw. Paul, who was recorded as a person who slaughtered Christians drastically change into one of the most important figures in Christian history. Individual eyewitness accounts are not helpful, but that's why we have 4 gospels. 4 main eyewitness accounts. Why would hundreds of people change their lives, leave their family's and die for their faith, based off of a lie?

But Jesus was the only man in the Bible, who claimed to be God. 

Let's take the first part:

"O you who have Faith! When you go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, make investigation, and do not say to the one who offers you peace: 

I interoperate the bolded part as saying use violence, in the name of Allah. I don't think that's too much of a stretch. 

Well appealing to education doesn't mean anything. There are probably more better educated that don't believe the bible. And Christians are fools because they still believe that a rotten stinking three days old corpse come back to life.

Does the bible actually state that Jesus died?

No it doesn't. It actually says nothing more than he gave up his spirit, which could mean a lot of things in those ancient times. In fact Jesus is said to have called out to his god/father "why have you forsaken me"? That to me sounds like a loss of faith and not an endorsement for the afterlife or the resurrection.

I agree. The OT is riddled with infiltration by different groups and factions; into Egypt for instance.. I am simply pointing out this is exactly what Muslims have done and are doing in the 21st century West.

They are lying. And you have said it is not "pacifist" But that - your - statement deserves a complete thread of its own. So best leave that one there unless you decide to make a thread titled  "Why Islam is a "a religion of peace".?

And is their holy book the Quran?

Not all Muslims believe that though do they?  My point is that enough do. And if they had the weaponry they would take on all those that appose their warped belief: Islam. 

I have seen no reports of Western MSM reporting from the Yemen for instance where they are claiming MUSLIMS killing Muslims. They, on the rare occasion, simply headline it as a "civil war".

That was because WESTERN governments were involved in those particular conflicts and the enemy were TERRORISTS! 

I agree. But our Western media will always maintain that it  "just a tiny few", whenever challenged.

Christianity is guilty of terrible past atrocities and in the name of Jesus too. . And no one can deny that. Christians have murdered  Christians, but - in the name of their god. <<< This is what I mean by DUPED and fooled.

But the difference is that the Christian God ; Jesus, does not instruct his followers to go out into the world and murder, rape, enslave and pillage anyone that doesn't believe in him, does he?

  But the god of the Quran does. Quite the opposite to the god of the Christians; Jesus says "turn the other cheek". " Love they neighbour".  Love thy enemies". 

Islam cannot reform, can it? <<This is a big problem for Muslims.

Israel too has dragged itself into the 21st century. It no longer stones people to death.  

this is one of the stupidest arguments i ever heard, regarding trying to rationalize chopping of heads and hands. and you claim it's me not thinking critically. 

really think about this. does the God of love that you pretend to worship, really wanting you to chop of heads and hands, and focus on getting lots of sex when you die? does that really sound like a divine plan to you? it's obviously as man made of a teaching, as we can get. 

Yes.

If you are confused........again, this is how the Trinity works:

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are 1 being. 

Jesus represents God the Son.

The Triune God has existed for eternity, meaning God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit, have never been created, and always have been. 

So, no one created Jesus. Again, this is prominent in the fact that both the Bible, and the Qur'an states he was born of a virgin pointing out the fact that he was not created.

So yes, Jesus is God. 

If you already exist, why would you need to create yourself, and again, he was born of a virgin. 

Sorry, I meant to say, violence by using religious justification is never right. 

Because the God of the Bible is substantially greater in moral justice, than the God of the Qur'an is.

Because I would rather listen to the eyewitnesses of Jesus to learn about who Jesus was, rather than one of a man who lived 500 years after him. 

Because the historical evidence is that Jesus lived, died, and rose from the dead, and I would rather listen to a man's teachings, and what he claimed, if that man literally rose from the dead. 

Wait. So, I'm supposed to base my reasoning off of what someone else says about the Qur'an, or what the Quran says? 

 As I believe Christians have been fools/fooled for the last 2000 years because they, in their extremely poor wisdom, have adopted a god from an ancient time they didn't understand, an ancient culture they didn't understand and an ancient society they didn't understand.

In my opinion, Muslims have been patient and have played the long game extremely well, no pun intended.  Over the last 40 years to my knowledge, Muslims have infiltrated and embedded themselves in many high offices of Western institutions - Government, Local Government, Education, Police force, Army, Navy Air Force. Medical Profession, Entertainment, Sport , you name it. And helped and  assisted all by our own self serving Governments trying to convince us with the usual patronising bullshite "Islam is a religion of peace" and "only a tiny few".  

Is the Isis terror organisation made up of Muslims?

ope.  The rampage of Islam was finally stopped in Europe when  Polish king—King Jan (John) Sobieski finally halted the invading butchers of Islam at the Battle of Vienna against the Ottoman MUSLIM Empire in 1683.   Didn't the Muslim Turks have FIVE of the largest Empires the world has  ever known? I wonder how they managed that?  Did they just wonder into most of Europe without a sword being draw and simply invited in with out an exchange of words?

MSM don't seem to want to report on the conflicts around the world where Muslims are butchering their Muslim "brother & sisters"  by the MILLIONS or Christians by the MILLIONS.   Why do you believe they are so reluctant to do so?

That man named Jesus, was the Creator.

This is not true. The Son has always existed. The Son, came down to earth, HIMSELF.

Because he's God?? He can do anything.

Debatable, but religious justification is never right. 

94. "O you who have Faith! When you go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, make investigation, and do not say to the one who offers you peace: 'You are not a believer,' seeking the goods of this world's life! But, with Allah are abundant spoils. You, too, were such before, then Allah conferred (His) grace on you; therefore make investigation. Verily Allah is aware of what you do.!

Yeah. So they can ask for sinful desires? 

The creator wasn't created. He brought himself down to earth, in the form of a man, named Jesus. He did not create himself. 

I agree violence is not bad if it is justified as well. But justified violence based on religious beliefs is not justified. 

Even in Christianity, Jesus taught not to be violent to defend our faith. We can be violent to protect ourselves, however. 

You do though. In the Quran it says that murder based on religion is justified. 

Are they able to ask for bad things? Do they have a free will in heaven?

Jesus is God. Therefore, he brought himself into the world in the form of a human.

1. Criticisms haven't been made in the middle of and Islamic country out in the open. There is actually recorded murders of people who have critiqued the Quran. 

2. I would say that child marriages, and murder based on religion is not the same as police brutality. 

So good people can't do bad things? Thats not true. 

No. Jesus is God.

I would be happy to also debate you on that subject as well. Of course, only if you were to accept. 

If I go to an Islamic country, and say:

I disagree with Islam, because it is violent in nature, according to the Quran.

And I blasted it on loudspeakers. 

I would be killed. 

So, you can murder in heaven? Or have sexual relations with children in heaven? 

Heaven is just a free for all? 

If sin feels good.

And heaven (logically) is a place for pleasure.

Then doing sinful things in heaven is permissible? 

You are not understanding.

If Jesus is God in the flesh, and no one can create God, then that means that God sent himself into a physical body and was not created. 

This is why the Bible, and the Quran, explicitly states that Jesus was born of a Virgin.

Find, a violent undertone, and I can guarantee you either the book condemns it, or the Bible represents the person who committed the act as justified. 

The Quran doesn't give a justification for child intercourse and marriage.

It does for the rest, but its only:

Try criticizing Islam in an Islamic country. See what happens.

Judaism (not officially) existed before. Zoroastrianism.

Would you agree that sin (bad deeds) sometimes feel good, and we want it? 

If yes, then your logic doesn't make sense here. 

God created everything, but nothing created God.

Your Quran also says prepubescent child marriage is acceptable.

It also says beating your wife into submission is acceptable.

It also says killing people who disagree with Islam is acceptable. 

It also says killing people who leave Islam is acceptable. 

Indeed. There is a slight difference between the two.  The god of Islam orders that its adherents/Muslims to kill all unbelievers, Jews and Christians.  <<<That is a fact.

Well you tell that to the relatives that have just watched their loved ones be headed and raped. And it "makes Islam look bad" because Muslims are carrying out the will of their god, as it is instructed in the Quran.

Fun is an emotion. Now, you assume that emotions are not used in logical arguments. Thats incorrect. I just used the emotion as a reason for polytheism being good. Of course, you might assume that my argument was about any action or any person, but it was not. It was about me and polytheism.

This is irrelevant, as I clearly pointed out that evil rewards evil, which is in itself an evil action. Maybe you mistakenly assumed that evil means absence of reward for evil, which is an absurd assumption.

I like reason. I just know better than to blindly trust it.

So Allah would not reward my intention to donate to charity? And this is your assumption?

1. Totally good

2. More good than evil

3. Equally good and evil

4. More evil than good

5. Totally evil.

Well, under your definition of Satan, Satan will screw everyone regardless of their actions, so if your definition turns out to be true God, everyone is equally screwed so nothing matters.

My argument has nothing to do with that, as my argument was about me. It wasnt about other people.

Thats false. Getting reincarnated as a person who gets slowly crushed by car is rather bad.

And if Satan turns out to be true God, you are kinda in trouble for praying to Allah.

If Valhalla turns out to be real, you are also in trouble. Even the Greeks and Egyptians had afterlife which kinda meassured how you lived life. Then there is also the spirit world if you follow native americans.

Also, you ignore the fact that pascal's wager only takes into account known Gods.

Thats just an assumption made by Jesus and Allah.

Even evil people are "good" towards someone. If he is more evil than good or even completely evil, he still might reward me for my evil actions because rewarding evil is evil.

Thats why I prefer the balance. 

If Allah or Jesus turns out to be real, I have donated to charity so gotta reward me for that.

If satan turns out to be real, well I masturbated to gay porn and prayed to Qliphoth. That should give me the benefit.

Well, maybe, but I dont see how does that make me bad.

Well, if one of them turns out to be real, he might appreciate that I prayed to him.

But we dont know what is the least risk, because our logic could be wrong.

So we play it safer and pray to many Gods.

Well, not really. There are over 3000 revealed Gods. You are not increasing chances by going 1 out of 3000.

50 out of 3000 is mathematically the greater chance of success.

Also, whats important is balance between good and evil. You dont wanna be all good, because if Satan turns out to be real, you did nothing to please him so no happy afterlife for you.

He might appreciate it. Even I like when people praise me.

Yes, its possible that Satan is the real God, which is why I pray to satan too.

Its actually fun. Praying to just one God for years gets boring quickly.

I mean, you dont pray to 100 Gods at the same time. Its like, today you choose one God and pray to him/her.

Well, that doesnt make any sense. I prefer to have a variety.

Thats why you dont pray to 2 Gods at the same time, but go one God per day.

Well, thats why it makes sense to pray to many Gods. If one of them is real, he might like you.

Lets hope so. I just wish it happens in my lifetime. I want to see the fall of islam and christianity.

So he says. But maybe Satan is a better planner. We will see.

Now, who is more evil? Christians or muslims?

And why cant I be both Christian and muslim? Like, why do I have to pick one of the two? Why not both?

Well, we polytheists are a minority, but I feel like it makes more sense to pray to many Gods to get what you want.

Well, there are plenty of Gods, so it gets confusing which God to pray to. 

And do we pick light Gods or dark Gods?

When you are a polytheist, there is just so many choices available.

Muslims are a lot more violent.

I just wonder if islam will face same decline as Christianity.

Then the Satan's victory would be complete.