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@Greyparrot
I don’t actually subscribe to that line of thought, but there are members of the 30% who seem rather silent on the matter, whereas I am not, ironically.
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@HistoryBuff
oh, i see. You are replying to something I said 40 comments ago and not what I said in the comment you are replying to.
So… taking you at your earlier and unrecanted word in the same convo is now somehow out of bounds or unfair? Seriously?
I offered the example of the vietnam war. The viet kong engaged in lots of activity that could be described as terrorism. They regularly murdered people for co-operating with the americans. They hid bombs, they killed civilians, they used terror as a weapon. they didn't do any of this for cultural or religious reasons, it was simply the best tactic available to them in their situation.
Ah, I remember now. Yes, I see that as fundamentally different in a few ways. I’m not going to write a book about it here, of course (at least I hope that is obvious). But a book COULD be written about the issue you bring up, if not already written. The Viet Cong did not openly state or demonstrate pure hatred and destruction of the South Vietnamese people other than as being party to a puppet government. If South Vietnamese people wanted to join their cause, they were welcome to it. It was politically rather than group identity motivated. The Viet Cong did not intentionally sacrifice their own innocents to the same extent and same eagerness as Hamas. But yes, revolution/civil war often causes a high body count whether rooted in allegiance to god or the state. Sacrificial suicide does require more bravery from an atheist than one who believes in an eternal reward, though.
I now understand your position and the reasons for it, though, so my curiosity is fulfilled.
But when Hamas uses similar tactics, you ascribe it to their religion or culture. That is bigotry. You want it to be the cause of their actions because it is the simplest way to put all the blame on them.
Well, this convo is circling the drain quickly. Time to put a fork in it… (yes, I’m mixing my metaphors)
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@HistoryBuff
yes, that would be the massive negligence part. If you are allowing your internal politics distract you from doing your job, you are negligent. So the best read possible is that he failed at his job and allowed alot of people to be killed. At least 2 countries have said they knew an attack was coming and warned Israel. Yet they still got caught with their pants down.
Agreed
You are kind of twisting my argument.
Not at all. Here is a direct quote from your post 133:
If the leadership of Hamas was given godlike powers with no consequences, I'm sure they would make all Israeli's disappear. But if the situation were reversed and the Palestinians had power, they would likely act like Israel does. They know that wiping out the Israeli's would trigger a response from the west, so they slowly strangle them and steal more and more land until there is no way for a peaceful resolution to happen. Then you use some excuse to make it look like the jews are "barbaric" and then you can kill or expel them. Which is exactly what israel is doing. And I have every confidence if Israel had such a godlike power, all Palestinians would cease to exist.
Perhaps you would like to modify this, but I can only address what you actually write.
I said that you can see the exact same dynamics play out in other conflicts. You choose to make a religious/ethnic argument about Hamas and try to paint them as somehow unique. But when their actions can easily be explained by comparing them to other conflicts, this seems like a very weak argument. Their tactics are not all that different from other groups that have been in similar situations, so saying that their actions are because of their religion just seems kind of bigoted.
I don’t recall you illustrating the exact same dynamics elsewhere, but please point to your post where such an example is provided. I am not a cultural relativist, no. I don’t see all religions and cultures as equal nor do I judge behavior via power structures. I could describe your views with pejorative labels, but I refrain because you have not solicited my opinion on that, you would not value my opinion if I offered it, and it would ultimately be pointless (hint).
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@Greyparrot
Hamas calls the Israelis “lovers of life”— as if it were a sign of weakness.
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@HistoryBuff
Bibi's popularity is not doing well in Israel. At best his government was massively negligent. At worst they allowed this attack to happen even though they knew it was coming because they wanted an excuse to attack Hamas.
These are points which I could possibly entertain. There is also an explanation that Netanyahu has been so concerned with internal politics that he was distracted from external threats. Your other points about power roles seem to assume that things would be much the same if the power roles were reversed. Power paradigm arguments strike me as simplistic, so we will have to agree to disagree…
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@HistoryBuff
The tit for tat on this issue can go on ad infinitum, which is why I look for the more fundamental aspects of the issue. As I said in post 168, I see the motives as quite different between the two. Hamas’ charter even admits that they wish the destruction of Jews and the Jewish state. Believing as they do in a paradise afterlife, Hamas value death more than this life. That belief is how they can sacrifice themselves and so many of their own innocents for their goal. In contrast, Jews value life over death. Their motive is the preservation of the Jewish state and the safety of its citizens. One can fashion a compromise consistent with the Israeli government’s goals of self preservation, but how does one compromise with wishes of total destruction?
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@Greyparrot
It is telling that Muslim countries are very reluctant to take Palestinian refugees. Do they assimilate poorly even in nations with a common religion?
Iran supports Hamas, even though they belong to opposing sects of Islam. The common thread is, of course, the goal of killing Jews. As I see it, the fundamental point of difference between Hamas and the Israeli government is this: the Israeli government’s central motivation is preserving their citizens’ lives (not only Jews) and the Jewish state; Hamas central motivation is destroying Jewish lives and the Jewish state.
It simply is a non starter for peaceful negotiations.
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@HistoryBuff
Is torturing children better than beheading them?
I don’t see the two as equivalent at all because I believe that intent matters. If you shoot an attacker, and the bullet goes through him and ricochets and also hits a child, that is quite different from finding a child and shooting him. Also:
-Hamas knew exactly what Israel would do after their massacre, so Hamas basically caused the response intentionally.
-There are Israeli hostages also being “tortured” by Israel shutting off power. I’m sure you even agree that isn’t by intent.
-The intent of shutting off power is to flush out Hamas and the hostages, not to torture children.
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@HistoryBuff
Do you believe the Israeli government has committed the moral equivalent of intentionally targeting infants for beheading and posting proof of execution/kidnapping to people’s Facebook pages?
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@HistoryBuff
This is from a wiki article about international views on Palestinian statehood:
Israeli positionBetween the end of the Six-Day War and the Oslo Accords, no Israeli government proposed a Palestinian state. During Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government of 1996–1999, he accused the two previous governments of Rabin and Peres of bringing closer to realisation what he claimed to be the "danger" of a Palestinian state, and stated that his main policy goal was to ensure that the Palestinian Authority did not evolve beyond an autonomy.[25]In November 2001, Ariel Sharon was the first Israeli Prime Minister to proclaim that a Palestinian state was the solution to the conflict and the goal of his administration.[citation needed] The government headed by Ehud Olmert repeated the same objective. Following the inauguration of the present Netanyahu government in 2009, the government again claimed that a Palestinian state posed a danger for Israel.[26] The government position changed, however, following pressure from the Obama administration, and on 14 June 2009, Netanyahu for the first time made a speech in which he supported the notion of a demilitarized and territorially reduced Palestinian state.[27] This position met some criticism for its lack of commitment on the territories to be ceded to the Palestinian state in the future.The Israeli government has accepted in general the idea that a Palestinian state is to be established, but has refused to accept the 1967 borders. Israeli military experts have argued that the 1967 borders are strategically indefensible.[28] It also opposes the Palestinian plan of approaching the UN General Assembly on the matter of statehood, as it claims it does not honor the Oslo Accords agreement in which both sides agreed not to pursue unilateral moves.[29]
Plus, there is also a wiki article on Israeli views on the peace process, which I have not read yet.
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@HistoryBuff
Even now, they have supposedly "western values" but they keep millions of people in an open air prison and blockade them. That isn't a western value that I am aware of.
I, too, question the wisdom of giving Jews a homeland right next to a people who wish them dead. It hasn’t worked out well. As I said earlier, the Arab League was given a seat at the table at the time of Israel’s creation and partitioning, but they boycotted it. Such unwillingness to compromise hasn’t worked out well, either.
I never said their anti-semitism is understandable. I said their hatred of Israel is. And I would agree that hamas as an organization is anti-semetic. But many of their supporters probably aren't.
Here’s my quote:
“Hamas wishes for the eradication of Jews and the Jewish nation.”
You responded, “Of course, they do. Israel has been shitty to them.” (Paraphrased from memory) And now, you seem to believe that people can support Hamas without being antisemitic themselves? This keeps getting better and better… or worse and worse.
you barely even really hinted at what you are talking about. I can't possibly search if I have no idea what you are talking about.
I didn’t bring it up. To remind you, YOU tried to establish a moral equivalence by speculating that the Israelis are just as against a Palestinian state as vice versa. I have said that rather than speculate on it, look it up… “Israel’s views on a Palestinian state.” But I also said that you are very dug in on the issue, meaning that such a search might not sway you at all.
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@HistoryBuff
I think a reversed situation would be pretty much the same. If the existence of their country were balancing on western support, they wouldn't dare wipe out the Israeli's. The same way Israel has been doing for decades. they'd love to wipe out or just expel the palestinians, but they can't.
Ah, sneaky of you to insert a Palestine operating under western support in your hypothetical. You think Israel’s alliance with western nations and predisposition toward western values is just some cosmic coincidence rather than a conscious choice?
I'm not making it about me. I'm pointing out a ridiculous argument made pretty much constantly about Israel.
I was saying that Hamas is antisemitic. This is not a controversial claim. You went off the fairway ever since you admitted their antisemitism is understandable.
look up what exactly? Has israel announced they support a 2 state solution that I am unaware of?
Rather than merely speculating on it, look it up is what I’m saying. Do I need to give you the exact search terms now?
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@HistoryBuff
You have offered nothing to negate the concept I offered, which is that one’s ownership of territory depends upon one’s ability to defend it against invaders. Time to move on from that one…
You believe that if the balance of power were reversed, the behaviors would simply be reversed between the Israelis and Palestinians. I disagree. I think if Palestinians had a large military and nukes and the Israelis had only small rockets and such, the situation would be quite different. As this is all hypothetical, we can just call that one an “agree to disagree.”
and what is Israel's position on a Palestinian state? I'm pretty sure it's exactly the same thing as the Palestinian position on a Jewish state. Let's not pretend like Israel is somehow more tolerant than the Palestinians.
That is easy enough to look up. You should find that it is not exactly as you claim.
no, i'm not. If you wish all jews dead, that is anti-semitism. If you wish the nation of Israel to cease to exist, that is politics. Israeli's want there to be no difference between Israel and all jewish people because then they can do whatever they want and any criticism is anti-semetic. It is a shield they hide behind. Israel can do shit things, and I can point out those shit things. That does not mean I dislike jewish people. The same way I can criticize China and not dislike chinese people.
Yes, you are in the weeds because I was clearly talking about Hamas’ antisemitism, and you are making it about you.
ok. and Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinians have a right to a state. It is the same thing. both sides refuse to acknowledge the other's right to exist. I agree that acknowledging that is important, but even if the Palestinians did agree to that, it wouldn't really help them or change anything. Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians to have a state of their own.
Not exactly. As I said, this is easy enough to look up, but you clearly have your heels dug in on the issue.
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@HistoryBuff
I mean, they recently took troops and crossed over into Israeli occupied areas, killed lots of soldiers, police etc. That is more than just terrorism. That is war.
I can only address what you say. Earlier, you were talking about terrorism as a means to annex territory. Now that you mention open war here— Israel’s ownership of land will depend upon their ability to defend it from invaders, which is what I have been saying.
no, if Hamas had power, there would be no jews, maybe. Hamas does not equal "Palestinians". Hamas exists only because Palestinians want to fight back against Israeli occupation. If Israel was actually willing to have peace, then Hamas would almost certainly lose alot of support.
Hamas is the leadership in question, yes. If they had more might than Israel, there would be no Israel or Israelis. In my view, that puts them more in the wrong than the Israeli government. Whereas you think that Israel’s power advantage makes it more evil. I have more to say about Hamas as they relate to Palestinians in general, but I don’t want the semantics of that to distract from my point here.
the israeli barbed fences and machine guns around the outside say otherwise. The Israeli blockade does too.
Israel created and enforces the boundaries, yes. That happens when you wish a nation be eradicated. My point is that Hamas runs what happens inside those borders.
“Oh, so you think their virulent antisemitism is largely justifiable.”
I didn't say it was justifiable. Also, this plays into a common argument that is bullshit. You can hate Israel without being anti-semetic. Israel is not a people, it is a nation. It's like saying you hate all Asians because China does something shitty. Pretending all criticism of Israel is Anti-semetic is a common trope people throw around to shut down any question of what they do.
Ok, understandable then. Wishing the Jews dead is the definition of antisemitism, so you are going off into the weeds here…
this is true. I have never said that negotiations would be easy. I have never said that Palestinians leaders are always negotiating in good faith. But the Palestinians don't have the Israeli's surrounded. They don't blockade Israel. Israel has most of the power in this scenario. If they don't negotiate in good faith, then peace is impossible. And since they adamantly refuse to give back land their illegal settlements are on, peace is impossible.
Recognizing Israel’s right to exist would do a lot, as I’m sure you know. What we are seeing is what happens when a group refuses to do this.
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@HistoryBuff
you argument was that if you can take something by force, it's yours. If terrorism (a kind of force) helps them to do that, then by your logic it is justified. In this case it seems like it will derail Israeli attempts to improve relations with the Saudi's and other arab countries.
No, I said that the only real way you “own” land is through your ability to defend it from invaders. I don’t see the word “justified” in there. And as I said, terrorism alone is a poor way to conquer land.
I do think they are equally evil. The difference is that Israel has all the power in this situation. They are the ones running the prison. they are the ones stealing the land. They are the ones who could end the conflict by negotiating with the Palestinians. Hamas can't do anything other than fight. They could fight in less shitty, evil ways. But they can't do anything else. Israel very much could, but wont.
Ah, you are a “power structure” person. In that case, I still call BS because you are essentially concluding this: evil + power > evil + terror tactics presumably done out of desperation. If Palestinians had all the power, there would be no Jews. As things stand now, there are Palestinians in the IDF.
Hamas runs the prison, actually. They say whether people leave or not. They use their own populace as cannon fodder. It’s no wonder their death tolls are so high. Muslims put more hope in the next paradise-like life than this one.
of course they do. Israel has been treating them like shit for decades.
Oh, so you think their virulent antisemitism is largely justifiable. Antisemitism predates the modern state of Israel. When the country was created after WWII and the partitioning was going to be negotiated, the Arab League boycotted the negotiation. Their lot hasn’t improved as a result. Palestinian leaders are loathe to compromise, and they refuse to recognize the Jewish state. It constitutes sort of a non starter in good faith negotiations.
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@HistoryBuff
if that is your position, then you are only justifying what the Palestinians are doing. If might makes right, then terrorism to regain their land by force is right, isn't it?
No, terrorism is not a means with which to annex land. How much land has Hamas gained via terrorism, for example?
I’m not buying your earlier claim that you believe Hamas and the Israeli government are equally “evil,” by the way. Clearly, you wish to indicate that Israel is guilty of greater wrongdoing, and that the burden is on Israel to peacefully resolve this rather than Hamas.
Hamas wishes for the eradication of Jews and the Jewish nation. That wish was on full display last weekend. You seem to think that wish can be peacefully resolved somehow?
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@HistoryBuff
“The only thing that gives one true ownership of land is the ability to defend it against invaders.”
The israeli's forced them off the land
This sounds like an example of what I just said…
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they build more and more settlements on stolen land.
“Stolen land” is a nonsensical term to me. As if someone can grab your land, put it on a truck, and drive away with it, never to be seen again. The only thing that gives one true ownership of land is the ability to defend it against invaders.
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@ponikshiy
Your chart doesn't mean shit
I call it “morality by casualty rate.”
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@Greyparrot
Yes, similar situation with Tyson. I don’t think he believes his own claptrap when he ventures outside his cosmology lane, though. I just think he fears losing his fan base and getting boycotted.
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@Greyparrot
Interesting. Yes, I have appreciated his clarity of speech, free thinking and independent opinions, and willingness to discuss almost anything interesting, but I eventually grew tired of his lack of awareness of his own limitations.
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@Greyparrot
Sam Harris is a prime example.
Would you expand on why you offer him as an example?
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@n8nrgim
i realize any form of existence will involve struggle, maybe my thing is not having a real choice. that's why i maintain there is something in fact that can be called 'voluntary slavery'.
This isn’t all that clear. You acknowledge the necessity of struggle, but you believe you have no “real” choice. Choice in what? How you struggle? But you do have a choice. And you call this alleged lack of choice “voluntary”?
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@n8nrgim
How would you prefer to survive— realistically, that is?
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@Greyparrot
“Much like an omelette, one cannot make a rational society without cracking skulls.”
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@Best.Korea
You don’t stand with Palestine; you merely stand with trolling.
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Arabs declare war on Israel.
Arabs lose war to Israel.
As the victor, Israel increases its lands.
Arabs yell, “Hey, no fair!”
Arabs declare war on Israel...
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Opine? Lol
Yes, opine. See? You learned a new word today.
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@FLRW
Unless Michelle Obama gets elected.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
You seem to have confused me for someone who cares a lot about what you opine.
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@Best.Korea
No, I don’t hate Trump. I pretty much accept what Bill Barr has said about him, though.
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It’s something of a miracle that no new major wars erupted with the “Donny come lately,” whereas we now have 2 with this current, career pro.
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@n8nrgim
what does it matter what it's called? is it possible to go to someone and say "i will be your slave if you take care of me"?
It matters because indentured servitude is actually a thing, and it is a temporary arrangement until one’s debt is paid off. Your idea of permanent servitude by choice exists only in your imagination.
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@n8nrgim
Are you talking about indentured servitude?
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“Build a man a fire, and you only keep him warm for the night. But set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.”
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@Greyparrot
Indeed. Some wage earners seem to confuse “cannot seem to get ahead” with slavery. Is “getting ahead” a human right now? I missed where primitive peoples had pensions and were eventually able to own BMWs and have exclusive country club memberships.
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@n8nrgim
I disagree with your view, yes. Survival has ALWAYS required work. You seem to believe that constitutes slavery. Yes, that is a belief of a juvenile. You are free to make choices. A slave can only choose between obedience or a damn good thrashing.
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@Greyparrot
Right, so the 6 billion in frozen funds had nothing to do with the attack this weekend
This talking point reminds me of a joke:
A man was strolling down Las Vegas Boulevard when a panhandler came up to him. “Excuse me, sir— my Mom is in the hospital right now, and my family needs all the help we can get in order to cover her hospital bills. Can you spare anything at all?”
“Hey, don’t try and fool me. You’re just going to gamble away anything I give you, aren’t you?”
“No, sir, you don’t understand!” *pats his hip pocket* “See, I’ve GOT gambling money.”
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@n8nrgim
You are free to join a commune or live off the grid with your survival skillset if you wish. The key word here is “free.”
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@n8nrgim
What is your concept of freedom as a contrast?
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@Greyparrot
So we can definitely blame Biden for re-electing Trump, and we can also blame Biden supporters.
I blame the DNC for giving us Biden, and I blame Trumpers for again giving us Trump. The DNC has a tragically short bench…
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@Greyparrot
A 2020 Biden was way more popular.
*Honk! Honk!*
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@ponikshiy
Perhaps this group found out about the Spanish Inquisition and Martin Luther’s writings?
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Biden’s record speaks for itself. The DNC has nothing to fear in 2024.
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@Greyparrot
“You can see the craters on the moon with your own EYES!”
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@Greyparrot
She will also be the first woman president, so I would expect a rise in popularity.
You would? She polled at around 2% in the primaries, and things haven’t improved for her since then…
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@IwantRooseveltagain
You’re pretty in tents.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Right, all the losers who can’t earn and afford to live here. We are better off without them. We need adults.
And more tents, evidently
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