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@Double_R
Oh, I learned quite awhile back that I, or anyone really, have little to no influence over the sort of conclusions you arrive at or assumptions you make… make that absolutely no influence. Hence, the tone of resignation in post 71 which was my initial answer to your query.
Ok, so at the time a video surfaces showing ICE agents chasing migrants with whips, twirling them around as they threaten to whip them, and in at least one instance shows an ICE agent swinging it by a migrants head as that migrant whips (no pun intended) his head back and falls to the ground. The news report following this claims ICE agents whipped migrants.
How do you substantiate your belief that there were, in fact, whips involved?
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@Double_R
In other words, we now know ICE didn't whip any migrants because ICE told us so… I would accept the reports findings as the best explanation.
Hmm… this is known in certain parlance as “speaking with forked tongue.” Aka not entirely convincing.
What's the takeaway here?
See posts 11-13, 74, 95, and 98
If you fail to see any point here, what compels you to participate?
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@Greyparrot
Sounds like he just gave away who the “sources” were. Oops. No doubt, people who work for the government leak to the media. Leaks are not the same as a demand for compliance, though. What sway government has over the free press is a very blurry area. I do think the media in general have genuine shame over the bandwagon toward war with Iraq, but that’s a whole other can of worms…
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@Greyparrot
Yes, and in the rush to be first, gaps are sometimes filled by unverified information or assumptions the journalist in question wishes were true or believes to be true on some level.
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@Greyparrot
There is a big difference between intentional deception and wanting, at some level, a certain thing to be true which is later learned to be untrue. I, and I think you as well, are talking about the latter. It’s simply human nature to be susceptible to these biases. I know Denzel wasn’t saying precisely this, but I see it as another side of the same die, if you will. I don’t think he would disagree.
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@Double_R
“9. ICE whipping migrants”
There were instances of this.
*SMH* I was actually hoping that this would at least be one area of common ground because this one is just patently false:
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/08/patrol-agents-on-horseback-did-not-whip-migrants-but-used-forced-and-inappropriate-language-investigators-say-00044763
So, when you previously claimed “most” of my examples failed in your view, you really meant “all.” Odd that you felt the need to sugarcoat the totality of your disagreement. You gave me false hope, man!
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@Double_R
Then I don't know what your point is.
You are not keeping up. Perhaps it is because you are jumping into a “discussion” (in quotes because what is occurring in this thread essentially fails to rise to that level) whose origins you aren’t fully cognizant of. Are you able to pinpoint where and how this line of posting got started? I could spell it out for your convenience, but I have a feeling you would nonetheless refuse to take it onboard…
Looking back you did start off when you presented the list as stories citing them as having turned out to be false, but when IWR responded telling you none of them were lies you never corrected his critique making clear that this was not what you were alleging.
You simply don’t get it, even after I explained this to you earlier. Chalk it up to selective comprehension, I suppose. *sigh* To spell it out: I see Rosie as basically a troll and spammer, so you really must accept that I will not always be responding to everything at all times in tit for tat fashion, nor in super serious, reverential tones. You seem to mistake silence for having no thoughts on the matter— two VERY different things! If you draw a hasty conclusion from silence (“making clear that this was not what you were alleging”), that is you making overly confident and mistaken assumptions, as per usual.
Now that you mention his response, I will say that Rosie did move the goalposts a bit there. He went from asking for 5 stories which turned out to be false to saying “none of those examples were lies.” A narrative which turned out to be false, and a narrative consisting of known, premeditated lies are two very different things!
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@Greyparrot
What I find while researching news articles of the past is that various articles are updated as needed, with a note denoting a correction was made. They certainly do not leave the original version of the article out there, so one cannot see what the original flaw or inaccuracy was. Couldn’t do that back in the days of print media!
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@IwantRooseveltagain
You, and perhaps RR, seem wholly unaware that “News” (yes, even outlets other than Fox News et al!) is able to construct a narrative, form a perspective, via factual information, selection of detail, story selection, and such while officially operating within the confines of factual news reporting. Opinion shows and articles certainly play into the overall dynamic, but news reporting is certainly capable of contributing toward a certain preconceived bias.
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@Double_R
When you label an example as “opinion,” I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. I am pointing out media narratives which turned out to be false. In the cases of Cuomo and Avenatti (what you called “opinion”), I am pointing out a misplaced “media darling” status. In other words, flawed character judgments on the part of the overriding media narratives on those two men.
If media is largely objective, as you seem to believe, then a narrative which boils down to “opinion” shouldn’t be formed in the first place!
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@Double_R
Wow, you are really in the tank for the larger media narratives, no matter how misleading. This is what I mean about not having common frames of reference. There is just little to no functional starting point.
In other words, none of the 16 examples of media stories which turned out to be on the wrong track are valid?
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@RationalMadman
You do realise you are saying that Conservatives are more white supremacist and anti-non-whites? You're trying to push the other side of what you're admitting there but the flip side is very telling.
No. My post was written from the angle of “why progressives defend Muslims,” not from the angle of “why conservatives tend not to like Muslims (generally).” Therefor, what I am saying is that progressives tend to be “anti racist,” ie pro POC, ie pro “not white” people. But I can see now how the misunderstanding occurred.
Value-wise, Islam is nigh-infinitely closer to Christianity than it is to secular liberalism both philosophically and culturally.
Yes. However, Muslims and Christians tend to be territorial and suspicious of each other. I am not claiming that the reality is entirely logical; I am merely pointing out what I think the reality of the situation is.
The West is not really the West, for instance South America isn't the West while Australia and NewZealand are.
I’m starting to think you are merely being contrary for its own sake.
The West consists of the majority caucasian nations that you pretend liberals hate. They love those nations even if they say they don't, they'd never want to live in an Islamic nation over a Western one if they're a true liberal believer.
I’m not pretending. Progressives criticize the West while neglecting to put those criticisms in their larger context. That reeks of a lack of gratitude. You even contradict yourself when you say “even if they say they don’t (love those nations).” I have no doubt about your final claim. You are pointing out why progressives should display more gratitude toward the West than they do.
They have a minority status and the victimisation is due to conservatives targetting them to the highest of ironies.
Yes, the victimization can be real. Thing is, it doesn’t HAVE to be real for the victim perception to exist.
Please do explain why liberal citizens are less islamophobic as a trend than conservatives are, not why politicians try to appeal.
Uh, I am. See the above?
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@RationalMadman
Let’s see… Muslims tend not to be: white, pro Christian, pro West, and they have a victimized minority status within Western nations. That makes them collectively a shoo in for protection and apologetics from enlightened progressives, despite the clearly unprogressive nature of Muslim culture and doctrine.
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@Greyparrot
Yes, there is definitely that possible aspect. In VP Harris’ case, I think it was a staffer who found that controversial excerpt from a 200+ page document in Florida and said, “Hey, I got something here on DeSantis!” Then it just snowballed from there. Yeah, 2 lines from a 200+ page rubric. And it is a framework, not the exact, verbatim wording which must be regurgitated in the classroom. And the writers of the rubric are alive and available for further insight. How’s that for context?
I looked at the document thinking, “Wow, this is waaay more education on slavery and the slave trade than I received, and I received what is considered a pretty high standard of education in California. Some will see those 2 lines and only those 2 lines, thinking “Why, this is a whitewashing of the entire history of slavery!” I look at them and think, “Well, yes— better to be a skilled, highly valued slave than an expendable field hand who can be beaten like a rented mule.” It’s a good lesson for anyone’s working life, really.
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@Double_R
My alleged spam was in response to a request from a whole other poster, a poster sort of known for spamming to say the least, who demanded no less than 5 examples, and my response was not directed toward you. I thought all this was obvious. Context matters.
Anyway, let’s start with points of agreement— which example or examples are valid in your view?
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@Double_R
Thanks for checking out the conversation between Loury and McWhorter!
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@Double_R
“Mostly” able to be disregarded, eh? Well, your outright dismissals and denials of “most” of the examples come as quite a surprise, as usual.
At the end of the day, I guess the point is “you do you.”
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@Greyparrot
It’s been awhile. I remember the “shells” in the bathroom and “everything is Taco Bell.”
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@IwantRooseveltagain
What?! My list doesn’t meet your standard of proof? It took me several minutes to compile that. Well, that’s my day gone…
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@Greyparrot
RoboCop was some decent satire. “I’d buy that for a dollar!”
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@Greyparrot
True; it is human nature to have a low burden of proof for things one wants to believe, and a high burden of proof for things one doesn’t want to believe. I even read that contradictory information sometimes entrenches people more in their deeply held beliefs.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I’m not going to sift through incorrect narratives proffered by NYT and WaPo in particular, but here are well over 5 media narratives which were found to be inaccurate:
1. Nick Sandmann as white supremacist
2. Rittenhouse as gun trafficking, murderous white supremacist
3. Policeman later died after fire extinguisher beating on January 6
4. Governor Cuomo is a great, great governor
5. Michael Avenatti could become president
6. Steele Dossier as legit intelligence
7. Law enforcement cleared protestors for Trump’s photo op
8. Laptop not a legit story (WaPo was actually on the correct side of this one)
9. ICE whipping migrants
10. Lab leak theory as “conspiracy theory”
11. “Don’t Say Gay” bill in Florida
12. Inflation as “transitory”
13. Columbus police shot an “unarmed” Ma’Khia Bryant
14. CRT is not taught in grade schools
15. Anti lockdown protestors neglect to wear masks; BLM protestors need not wear masks (not a lie but glaring double standard)
16. BLM protests are “mostly peaceful”
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@Greyparrot
That’s a well written article. Made me think of Robin DiAngelo, who has probably profited the most with the least talent of any in the anti racist movement. Perhaps she couldn’t make it as a Tarot card reader?
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@Greyparrot
So embarrassed that the topics that Ramaswamy has to answer questions about are even part of the political conversation. I want to hear Ramaswamy talk about the economy, higher education issues, healthcare etc. those questions are never asked by the left!
I can see the left bringing up healthcare, but otherwise I agree with this lamentable observation. What is really a headshaker is when lefties ask “Why are conservatives so obsessed with transgender issues?” That’s just an attempt to turn the tables and gaslight. Clearly, it is the left which obsesses over this issue which affects a fraction of a percent of the population; the right is just reacting to that obsession and the seemingly inorganic, alarming growth of that population.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So now gender AND sex exist on a spectrum. They knew it would come to this.
Goalpost move prediction: “sex is also socially constructed.”
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@Greyparrot
That’s a lot of context to digest all at once!
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@Greyparrot
I cannot understand why so many people of color demand entry into a country as oppressive and systemically racist as ours. It must be a constant barrage of micro aggressions!
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@Greyparrot
No doubt, but the positive thing is that the vast majority of people are not impressed by her.
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@FLRW
People have never been exposed to as many sensory stimuli as they are today. We do not, however, consciously perceive the majority of the sensory impressions that bombard us. Our brain processes these impressions without us noticing. But where does the brain decide which sensory information should reach our consciousness and which should not? Tests on the brains of macaques have shown that neurons in at least two regions of the brain, the temporal and frontal lobes, are responsible for this.Scientists from the Max Planck Institute in Tübingen measured the activity of neurons in the brains of macaques while the animals observed images on a screen. The results show that neurons in one part of the frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex are active when the monkeys are aware of what they have seen. Therefore, this region of the brain appears to play a role in deciding which impressions reach our consciousness.Thus the content of consciousness is based in two different brain regions. The decision as to which sensory impressions will reach our consciousness is not made by a single region. Instead, neurons from different regions must cooperate for this purpose. With the help of the tests on the monkeys, it is possible to establish how consciousness arises. This knowledge could benefit people with impaired consciousness in the future.
Interesting stuff, but you should properly attribute text which has previously been published elsewhere:
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@Greyparrot
More precisely, she said something along the lines of “Now, I’m not saying you’re a racist, but let me tell a story [which illustrates how I think you are a racist]…”
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@Double_R
You once related to me that you, too, respect Professor John McWhorter’s insights and opinions. In light of that, I post this very recent video of him and Glenn Loury discussing the fallout regarding this issue, although it seems a bit “late to the party” now:
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@Greyparrot
The mayor and governor need to be reminded that diversity is our strength.
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Recommend DART to a friend? I don’t even recommend DART to myself!
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@Savant
I say yes to both. As moral quandaries go, these aren’t that quandary-ish. The movie “Saving Private Ryan” presented the quandary of risking a whole platoon of soldiers to save the remaining son of a mother who had already lost her two older sons to the war. In contrast, the scenarios you pose are more akin to a platoon of soldiers being risked to recover a corpse!
My understanding of “the trolley problem” involves a decision between saving a trolley with an infant on board versus saving a trolley with a dozen adults on it.
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@Sidewalker
well I guess we know what your hot button is
“What you mean ‘we,’ White Man?”
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@Greyparrot
Even audiobooks require one to set aside the time… time that could be spent on this site!
Please, take that as sarcastically as it was intended.
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@Greyparrot
That’s what I mean about “adding value.” Their horn section is on par with Tower of Power.
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@Best.Korea
Well, I do it for a few reasons: to add value (education, entertainment, etc.), avoid plagiarism, avoid “reinventing the wheel,” and not everyone is what you might call “a reader.” I definitely prefer it over the pseudo intellectual ramblings of a bot.
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@Sidewalker
Offended that I also share an opinion, the word for that is "snowflake", we were talking about woke.
Offended? No. Disappointed in the fraudulent curiosity of your OP and your subsequent one-dimensional insights? Definitely… somewhat…
For those who might be curious, interested, and have an attention span greater than that of a goldfish, I offer up John McWhorter, author of “Woke Racism”:
Or, half as long but same idea:
And finally, for those who lack the above qualities, I posit this instead:
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@FLRW
“As a means of comparison, who do you believe makes good political arguments largely devoid of the issues you just listed?”
Could it be… David Pakman?
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@IlDiavolo
I agree for the most part. While Woke ideology ultimately leads to Neo Marxism, I don’t know if I would equate the two. There seems to be such a thing as “Woke Capitalism,” but perhaps that is just a contradiction in terms?
It is interesting to observe how Marxism has evolved from a class struggle to a race/identity struggle. Class is mutable, whereas race is not. I haven’t read a clear, cogent explanation of how it transpired, perhaps there isn’t any single explanation, but it seems that in the USA at least, progressives have lamented the lack of progress in black communities, especially after the improvements provided by the civil rights movement and the assistance provided by LBJ’s “Great Society.” CRT addresses the former specifically, while Neo Marxism addresses both, I think. Also, postmodernism in the academic world is largely responsible for the shift in focus from class to identity, I believe.
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@Sidewalker
Interesting, the popularity of the word clearly came out of the black community, I'm not sure "progressive circles" is the best description of it's origination, the people who use it, would use a different term than "progressive circles".
Sure, I can readily agree to that. I should have said that the word “woke” did not originate in conservative circles. If it originated in the black community, an internal friction manifests— if “woke” does comprise the gay and trans rights movements, those are hardly causes for which the black community is known to advocate. As Douglas Murray likes to say, “Intersectionality… isn’t (intersectional)!”
Good answer, I do believe it's predominantly used as code word forblack people.
Oh, so you are far more interested in declaring what you believe than learning what I believe, despite your thread’s pretenses otherwise. Duly noted!
Yeah,I think it started as a racist dog whistle, and now it's become a label for the "them" of a bigot's "us/them" thinking.
To this, I refer you back to my previously stated observations above.
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@Sidewalker
First, note that “woke” is an adjective which originated in progressive circles. It seems to have usurped the label of “political correctness” or “politically correct.” I would define “woke” as possessing the belief that there is an oppressor/oppressed power structure based in immutable characteristics. It comprises these concepts:
Anti racism
Critical race theory
Diversity, equity, and inclusion
Intersectionality
Perhaps it includes gender theory and the trans rights movement as well, but the immutability of trans identity is in question.
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@Best.Korea
Was it a scientist who did it?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I have a particular affection for Arabic numerals myself.
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@Best.Korea
I dont believe in anything except in my pain.That seems to be the only truth in this world.Why would I believe in thing which was proved?I can choose what to believe and what not to.I can dismiss facts that dont agree with me.
Using the Bill Nye doll, show us where the bad man touched you.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I’ve always liked Zakaria for the most part, although he has had issues with plagiarism and poor sourcing.
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