imdancin

I will not engage with anyone who has a vile mouth. I won't stoop to that level. You want to grow up and talk like an adult who wants to discuss a topic to agree to disagree let me know.

Everyone lives by faith...everyone. Evan if the faith is only in themselves.

I don't believe someone can call themselves  an atheist. At best they can be a skeptic/agnostic because they can't prove there isn't a god.

Wearing jewelry, parading around in church even carrying a Bible does not make one a Christian. The one who follows the scriptures, loves and accepts the Lord as Saviour and carries out the commandments is a Christian. The one who takes up the cross, the one who denies the World and acknowledges the eternal heavenly kingdom belongs to Christ.

We can watch the friuts of people...but only God knows who is saved.

“I asked the question why you go to abortion clinics and confront. I said nothing about yelling and screaming yet I'm sure that happens as well as the fundmentalis nut cases who shoot to kill. Sick.

No your not aiding the pregnant women or anyone a part of that process.  You are virtual rapist and nusiance to society uneccessarily. Sick.”


I am sure that yelling and screaming does happen but iIhave never seen it personally. Why do you use the term fundamentalist? Are you so narrow minded as to think that only some Christians are against abortion? That Jews, Muslims even atheists can't be against it as well? Science is clear as to what is being slaughtered. There are people who are pro-life and do not hold to any formal religious position that stand up against abortion.

If you think I am sick because I try to stop abortion then God help you.

THIS VIDEO IS WHAT YOU CONDONE AND CHAMPION. IT IS YOUR APHRODISIAC, not mine.

https://clinicquotes.com/pictures-of-an-abortion-procedure/


“Natural abortion happens all the time and it is relabled as a misscarriage, but is an abortion. Your medically induced or other kinds of human induced abortion. Again your a virtual rapist.”

What you are talking about is not premeditated and it happens because of something spontaneous and natural.

“And you have the gall to say we are violent? LOL”

Abortion is a violent act….I oppose it…YOU CHAMPION ABORTION, YOU CONDONE IT, FOR ANY REASON AND AT ANY GESTATIONAL AGE. THAT IS SICK, THAT IS VIOLENT.

“You narrowed minded virtual rapist ignore the pregnant womans concerns, one of which is the most important, one, that the fetus/baby is an organsim o f the pregnant woman who is not a mother until the baby is born out, umbilical chord cut, and the baby has taken its first inspiraiton of breath to become and independent individual human seperate frome the pregnant woman.”

You are so immature. To call me names shows you can’t debate that you are only interested in showing how much you don’t know about the subject.

Let me give you some educational facts because you obviously do not know about fetal development or reproduction.

 "Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, thezygote."

[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]

These are from medical textbooks still used today. They say the same thing. An INDIVIDUALS life starts when fertilization takes place. It is a human being. That human life is not a part of its mother. That individual has its own DNA, blood type, circulatory system, heart, liver etc. 

One thing is sure…abortion is intentional. It is the only procedure on earth that seeks to kill a living human being. In a hospital you could have one doctor in one room trying desperately to save a life and another doctor in another room that is performing an abortion and killing a life.  That is what the abortionist is hired to do. The abortion is not complete until the human life is dead. However small, it is living, it is human. Abortion is not an accidental death.


“Your have absolutely zero compassion, empathy or prayers for the pregnant woman who may become a mother of a living breathing, independent individual human. This is partly why your sick-n-head in these regards and my guess is many others.”

I am sorry you think so because you don’t know me at all. I am a mother and a grandmother and I work in this field. I love people including mothers as I am one myself. But I value the life in the womb. It is unfortunate you do not. 


I would love to continue debating with you but I will not do so if you resort to calling me names. Your choice.

What facts do you have to be able to say what you just did?

I am not pro-war in all instances. Do I think the WW2 was necessary to stop Hitler? Absolutely To free humans from the death camps and ovens, yes. 

Was the Civil War necessary? Absolutely  To free blacks from oppressive forces, yes.

I believe any war fought in defense is justified. The war must be for a just cause and the intentions must be good. Resolutions should have been tried before.

Personally I have problems with the death penalty because I know innocent peoples lives have been taken. I have read the scriptures and of course i know what they say.

 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience." Romans 13:1-5 

In the New Testament, Jesus emphasizes mercy, not judgement. I don't think it endorses or condemns the death penalty. But God demanded strict and heavy penalties in the Old Testament. I don't think any punishment should be carried out for revenge but for the protection of citizens. Take the shooting of the children in school in Texas yesterday, do I think the shooter should have gotten the death penalty. Absolutely yes.

I did not get on this site yesterday because I literally cried all day. My heart is broken for those parent who lost their babies. The authorities all talk about gun control, arming the schools etc etc, same pathetic excuses and gibberish from both sides of the aisle...and it keeps happening over and over. It is happening because people have no moral compass...God has been stripped from our society and it seems everything is relative, no difference between good and bad, no respect for elders (the shooter shot his own grandma), the break down of the family. When a nation mocks and eliminates God...this is what happens. The USA has rebelled against God and hell is on earth. What foundational reasoning is this evil happening? The absence of God. Let's forget the symptoms of these problems and get back to the right foundation so that we can raise generations of people who love life, one another and who put God first so that good can follow. Man will never provide the solution, only God will. 

As far as LGBTQ goes...I think you know my answer. I stand on sin biblically. My two uncles were gay and in the closet with most the people they knew. Their choice and they were fine with it. I loved them both unconditionally. I traveled with them and was very close. They knew I was a believer in fact they were too. I never condemned them, God will judge in the end. I only believe there is one sin that keeps someone from eternal salvation with God....and that sin is to deny Christ, who He said He was and what He came to do. 

I can respect the gay community, in fact I am commanded to love them and I do...but I stand on what God says is sin.

 

I think that happens in our own country now. 

Around 4 million babies are born in the United States each year. According to the Adoption Network statistics, around 140,000 children are adopted by American families each year, and around 62% of babies in domestic infant adoptions were placed with their adoptive families within a month of birth.

So you are suggesting that we kill to solve societal problems, over population etc. How about killing those born who might be handicapped, mentally challenged, the wrong sex, gender?  Let's deceive  people into believing that a handicapped person is less than human not worthy of life. This kind of language and thinking dehumanizes the unborn. But then the pro-choice/abort side uses careful language to sound more kill friendly.

“1} why your going to confront pregnant women at abortion clinics ---is virtual rape--  is insanity and creates insanity for those who work there and going for an abortion for starters,

2} yes she is the pregnant woman and mother to be, once the fetus/baby is born-out. Until the umbilical cord is cut and now independent baby takes its first inspirited breath, the mother is the only ethically moral person who gets to decided, if she or others are allowed to assist the baby in getting its first inspirited breath,

3} others are there to assist the pregnant woman  >>> mother and her wishes, nothing else.  She will have to deal with her choices more than anyone else, so others should follow the first rule of medical response, do know harm, and this case do know harm to the mothers by obstructing her choices of how to respond to the babies needs.”

Point 1…….We don’t confront anyone by yelling, screaming. Most groups go to pray. We abide by the law concerning restrictions, where to stand etc. We have the right as Americans to picket, protest. The fact that we are anti-abortion should not matter as other groups in our country are very free to be seen and heard. If our presence halts one abortion that happens on the days we go…everything is worth it. The insanity happens not on the outside of the clinic but on the inside, when the unborn is ripped, cut, burnt out of the womb…alive, no pain medicine. And you have the gall to say we are violent? LOL

Point 2….Mother to be? No at the moment of fertilization the woman becomes a mother. That which she help create is not a part of her, it is a separate human being with its own DNA, fingerprints, organs, circulatory system etc. So you say the mother should be able to kill her child because she is ethical and moral. So she has the right to kill it up until the unborn natural delivery…wow. 

Point 3….Others are there to kill the unborn. The person that drove her to the abortion mill, the receptionist or office staff that takes the money, the nurses who help get her ready and the doctor who carries the killing out. 
Do no harm?????? LMAO  Just brutally kill the unborn inside the womb.   

Bones,

Absolutely. But Jesus came and fulfilled that law and created new law. He replaced the law of Moses with a higher system of ethics. We should always respect the Old Law..but we live by the new Law because Jesus is the final authority. To be clear however...the New Law does not deminish or cancel out the Old Law. Read the sermon on the Mount if you want an example or Matthew 5. 

Medically there is no way to do that. I had a miscarriage and did not know it. 

I think the scriptures put a powerful argument on the life of the unborn child. Because a fine might be issued does not suggest the unborn was not human.  If you go to verse 32…Moses wanted a fine paid for the death of a slave. Does this mean that the slave is less than human? No

GOD LOVES CHILDREN. He loves them out of the womb…why would He not he loved them while in the womb?

I will put some scriptures out here……

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)

 Jesus said to His disciples, “whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me” (Matthew 18:5)

"Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him.”  Psalms 127:3

God says in Proverbs 7 that there are seven things that are detestable to Him. One of those are hands that shed innocent blood. This is what abortion is to God..the shedding of innocent blood. In Leviticus 20 that to kill children is to “defile my sanctuary and to profane my holy name."


Psalms 139:13-16 
"For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
15 
My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.”
 
This is all about God and the child in the womb. David is talking to God….God created his SOUL..before birth. He was wonderfully made. All life in the womb is wonderfully made in Gods eyes. It is man who looks at imperfection as not acceptable. No matter what the handicap or situation…God created it.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”  Jeremiah 1:5

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”  Job 33:4

 And today through abortion innocents of the young pay the ultimate price for the sins of others.

 "They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood" (Psalm 94:21)

Abortion is a sin against God and His perfect law. “Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13) Bottom line the only one with the ability to give life is the LORD.

That which is in the womb is blessed by God…it is a good fruit. So even though the woman who contemplates abortion sees it as bad, a problem..that is not how God views it.  The pro-abort/choice crowd doesn’t like to call the unborn, baby. God does however.  

"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child…” Genesis 16:11

Here are more examples…."Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father” Genesis 19:36  "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her…” Exodus 21:22  "And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child” 2 Samuel 11:5  "Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with Child of the Holy Ghost” Matthew 1:18     "...as travail upon a woman with child…” 1 Thess 5:3 

And what happens if the mother miscarries?

Anyone can try to kill their child in any sort of way. That has been happening since the beginning of time. And there is no way that you can monitor every pregnancy that occurs in the country. Child abuse, spousal abuse, child pedophelia....incest, etc etc goes on too...but the government can't catch it all. We have laws...the laws should speak and punish those who abuse them. 

I think it's a profit driven.  Egg brokers, donors...an unregulated industry with a lot of problems. It's basically a manufacturing business. Reduction abortions go on where they kill  babies in multiple pregnancies. It reduces the risk of a woman carrying multiples. Discarded embryos that are created during IVF...Freezing fertilized humans for later use and if they are not used...???  I think its unethical and violates human dignity.

I read this the other day.

"The Jones Institute, one of the pioneers of IVF, reports that only 10 to 20 percent of the human embryos produced by IVF ever result in a normal pregnancy. As for the other 80 to 90 percent, researchers at Yale School of Medicine recently estimated that over 5.7 million human embryonic children have died as a result of IVF."

I feel for couples that want children and can't have them. But children are not commodities. They should not be used as experiments because people are desperate to have them. They should never be objects. 

“I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make.”  I doubt you’re a woman.”

I am a woman. I am 66 years old and have birthed two children. I also have two grandchildren. Have been married to the same man for 41 years. I had an abortion when I was 19. So let me tell you that I know physically and mentally what comes with knowing you killed your child. A fe years back I worked with the group, Silent No More, to share my abortion story. I am being honest here and would never deceive anyone into thinking that I am not what I appear to be online. I have had medical issues lately, breast cancer and have had a lot of time at home during recovery. Thought sharing and debating online would be fun since I have the time. I have not been posting that long and am still confused about how the site works.  
 

“I don’t think anyone denies it’s a woman’s responsibility if she gets pregnant (rape or faulty contraceptives not included). 
This is surface level stuff that an incel or mgtow would say.”

I think you would be surprised at the low level of knowledge a lot of woman have about their own reproductive system, also fetal development. I worked at my states Right to Life office and when we went out to do educational events, Womans Expos, conventions etc…I was shocked. What is incel, mgtow? You lost me. 

“You call getting pregnant “damage” as if it’s a vase you break at a store that you have to pay for. Is this corrrect? Doesn’t sound very pro-life. More punishment than anything. I would say having to go through abortion is punishment enough for most women.”

Getting pregnant is damage if an abortion happens. Most pro-choicers think their position is pro-life even if they say they are opposed to abortion, but still want it legal. I have talked to hundreds upon hundreds of women like myself who have gotten abortions. Rarely do I meet anyone that is happy they did it. Younger women are more defensive and take the “in your face” attitude. I have only been in two confrontations with a woman one at an abortion clinic, and one at a booth at our state fair. 

“Calling a zygote human life (from a “pro-life” stance) doesn’t bring anything to the table other than the wishful ability to ignore all arguments.” 

I don’t ignore any arguments. Bring anything up, I will try to give an answer. I will say this. When I am out in the field doing something concerning abortion, I argue from a scientific view…not religious. Why? Because I respect peoples right to believe religiously what they want. If they are Christian, then I can show the scripture side of the issue. Other wise I have a lot of valid medical information to give out. If can send it your way if you would like to read it.   

“Nothing about economics?”

This I believe is a social issue.

 “1. It’s up to the mother.

2. There’s a difference between a “child” that lacks a developed nervous system and one that is born.”

So she should be able (because she is the mother)….kill her unborn up until the natural gestational age of the unborn? If you tell a woman she has a time limit…then aren’t you taking her rights, her ownership away? So you make a scale as to what unborn deserves life and who doesn’t based on their health. Do you feel that way about kids who are mentally, physically handicapped after they are born? 



“Abortions should become progressively rarer further along in the pregnancy it is. Which is the current situation. Don’t 80 something percent of abortions happen within the first month or two?”

Heres the thing, correct me if I am wrong. You say that abortions should be rarer…further along. Why? Is abortion wrong on some level? And if it’s wrong, why do you condone it? You said…”It’s up to the mother.” Then why should anyone have a say…? Kill unborn children at any time and for any reason. You tell her no…and you are imposing your morality on her. Right?



 
 

Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.

Sorry I do not get it, could you explain please?

“Yes, I like aborting the unborn for the hell of it. You got me. 

So you would like to subjugate all women/girls to carry through pregnancies regardless of circumstances? 

State your full position.”



I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make. Unless it is rape no one can be blamed for pregnancy other than the woman. She is the one who says yes to sex and all that entails. And unless she is a complete idiot everyone knows birth control methods can fail. The chance is HERS to take. She invites the man/sperm to enter her body. Birth control should be her responsibility because todays society says she owns her body and she has the ultimate decision to do whatever she wants with it.

As for abortion…I believe as a Christian that we are made in the image of God and that He knew us before we were in the womb. I believe that science states clearly that a new human life starts when fertilization takes place. At that time it is a unique human being that is not a part of its mother but lives in her womb as she supports and protects it. I believe every life in the womb deserves personhood and should have rights under our laws that protect them from being murdered. In the very rare instance when a mother is dying than every attempt should be taken to save the child by taking it early.  
Guttmacher Institute a pro-choice think tank says less than 1% of ALL abortions are done because of rape, incest and the health of the mother. 99% of all abortions are done for social reasons. 

Why because a woman is raped does her child deserves less because his/her mothers was violated? Do two wrongs make  right? If you walked into a nursery full of kids and you were given the task of picking out the one whose mother was raped….do you think you could do it? Tell me why that child would have deserved death?

Why can't you without any humor...state your position on abortion?

Sorry its taking so long to answer back…just finished radiation for breast cancer yesterday and have been feeling a bit under the weather. 

“Simply put, a composite of individuals functioning as a unit. In my childhood, that would've been my mother, father, I and my eight siblings. Parents would assume the role of incorporating their own experiences in educating their children, rather than simply being glorified custodians  and relying on public schooling or television to be de facto surrogate "parents." The bond of the parents--particularly the mother and father--I believe is crucial--using my own experience as well as from what I've read--is essential in the psychological development of their children. And part of said bond, between mother and father, is sex.”

Wow 8 kids…they had their hands full. I totally agree with you about schooling. I believe kids should be taught how to learn and search for meaning as a life skill and that means seeing all sides and being exposed to different issues especially concerning history. Television programing is a terrible source of education. Like you I believe that the bond a child has with a mother and father is crucial for the child’s well-being psychologically like you said. I agree that sex is a HUGE part of a marriage but agape love is number one. Should something medically go wrong with either one of them and sex is no longer an option….love will cover everything. 

“No, I didn't. I've specified that certain methods of abortion are immoral, but not the concept in and of itself--i.e. expelling a zygote/embryo/fetus from one's womb.”

Guess I misunderstood. So I got your concept of family, could you share your position on abortion? What methods are immoral? When should abortion be available? etc


“Who or what is doing the "premeditated" killing?”

A woman makes an appointment to have the abortion done. She thinks about options….and then she pays the money to have the life inside her killed. That is pre-meditation. The doctor kills it, that too is premeditated. 

“What do you need help understanding?”

How someone who admits to the humanity of the unborn, that it is a living human being….and then say killing it for any reason and at any time is ok.

What is ethang ??? 

And the Bible is clear as to what sin is. His morality never changes. Every word of God proves true (Proverbs 30:5; John 17:17).

I just answered this question in the previous post. This was my post.

Polygamy is immoral and was not Gods design because it never represented the relationship between Christ and His bride…the Church. It was permitted by God in the Old Testament. It caused heartache for people and led them away from Him.  Ephesians 5:25-27

I believe at the time God allowed polygamy so that women were protected by a husband and not sent into slavery or prostitution. At that time it was difficult for women to support themselves as most were uneducated and untrained to do anything. The men in families stepped up to the plate to take care of their mothers, sisters etc. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. This also would happen faster if a husband had multiple wives. 

Monogamy was God plan starting in Genesis when he said that a man would leave his mother and father…marry and cleve to one wife. They should become one. At some point God restored back to monogamy. 

“Yes, the question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament?”


Polygamy is immoral and was not Gods design because it never represented the relationship between Christ and His bride…the Church. It was permitted by God in the Old Testament. It caused heartache for people and led them away from Him.  Ephesians 5:25-27

I believe at the time God allowed polygamy so that women were protected by a husband and not sent into slavery or prostitution. At that time it was difficult for women to support themselves as most were uneducated and untrained to do anything. The men in families stepped up to the plate to take care of their mothers, sisters etc. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. This also would happen faster if a husband had multiple wives. 

Monogamy was God plan starting in Genesis when he said that a man would leave his mother and father…marry and cleve to one wife. They should become one. At some point God restored back to monogamy. 

“Sex is inherent function.”

It has a different meaning for many people and for some it’s not meaningful at all. It can express love, lust, power, validation, fulfilling a desire and with it can come a lot of baggage…heartbreak regret, sickness, violence, pain. For a Christian like myself I believe in the Biblical reasons for it. If ya believe it’s just for sexual pleasure then people are just objects for gratification. I believe God created sex for the pleasure of a married couple, man and woman. Sex then is about the relationship between the couple who    
God says becomes one in a covenant marriage. He created the male and female body to work together physically and to procreate. All this mirrors Christ and the Church.

“And this is 2022, and people still keep teaching 2000 year old biblical BS....One of the drawbacks of highly evolved systems of memory and manipulation.’

Gods Word never changes. Does not matter if it was when Christ lived on earth or today. Any marriage other than that of a woman and man who are equally yoked is outside Gods commandment. Christians who walk with Christ are not of this World, they are with Christ. What the world says about morality is not Gods commandments and we are to follow God not society.  

“Call me cynical if you like.”

I don’t know you and have no idea what your worldview is all about. Do you think you look at this in a cynical way? From what I have read I do believe your post is sincere, that you might be searching for answers.  

“Haven't read the whole thread so don't know if you're a fellow cynic, religious nutter or just a moderate sort of questioning type person.”

I have been called a lot of things in my life, some good, some bad. I am a believer in Christ Jesus and with that comes hatred from any people. It’s ok. Jesus said that he was hated by some and that his followers would also be hated for standing with Him. 

“False.  You are not a pregnant woman and I am not sticking my nose into you bodily business regarding and oganism of you body. YOur confused at best and at worst......concepts that stem from dark ages and further regarding control of women by men. Sick.”

What does my not being pregnant have to do with anything?
You have your opinion and I have mine, right? 
Dark ages? 

“YOur still very confused person. Sad :—(“

Not confused at all. You just won’t even entertain addressing the points I make. 

“For a brief period of time the egg, fertilized or not, travels in fallopian tubes.  For you to insist that fertilized egg is not an organism of the pregnant woman is more false narrative on your part and all of the sic-n-the-heads out their whose ego can not acccept the truth, regarding the rights of pregnant womans bodily business, unless she give her consent for others put their noses into her bodily business.

You have nothing of any validity to offer on this topic. Please keep stop your virtual rape of pregnant by keeping friggin nose out of pregnant w.omans bodily affairs. Please and than you”

I will say it again…the egg, the sperm is not apart of the woman’s body. After fertilization however it is biologically an individual, different and unique to another individual in the entire world. The mother and child are TWO separate people. The sex, the blood type can be totally different than that of the mothers. The unborn does not share a circulatory system or blood with the mother. They do not share major organs either. Every born person is dependent in some way on others, but they’re still individuals. The same in the womb. The unborn is dependent on its mother…but it is still a separate person from her. The unborn self-develops with help from its mother….the same as if it was born. 

Does X being inside Y make X a part of Y? 

For you to tell me I have no right to an opinion on this (most based on fact) is narrow-minded. What it means is that you can’t debate issues. You do not know my history and I have one. I have a right to free speech as you do. I suggest you educate yourself on this topic. Your sentences do not even make sense. “Please and than you”?????

Give me an example where I attributed something to someone who actually didn't say it.

So you condone all abortions? Even on full term unborn babies or as you call them zygotes? 

State your full position.

‘Thats correct i.e. you have nor moral authority to be sticking your nose in the pregnant womens bodily business.’

So you tell me I have no right…while you do the same to me. Based on what you said…you could not believe in any moral policing agency. 
Do you have the right to defend a child whose parent is abusing them?
Did the North have any right to go to war with the South to help free the slaves?
Why did anyone have the right to hunt Osama Bin Laden down and seek revenge?
And Charles Manson really did not kill anyone ..he should never have been prisoned for it.  

“Yes it is as all of long list is irrelevant to a pregnant womans right to privacy about an orgnaism of her body.  Even the man who inseminated her. has not any rights to her organism, because, he gave here his semen.” 

It is something in her body but not apart of it. Unfortunately the father has no rights, not even if she wants the child and seeks for child support. If she owns the child like you say…he should not be held liable for anything. Right?

“every one has their personal set of morality that often changes over time.  Your morality thinks it is ok of you to stick your nose into a pregnant womans bodily business, regarding an organsim of here body.  Your your type are repulsive and immoral at best and at worst……….”

So abortion is wrong one day and ok the next? Substitute rape or pediphelia or spousal abuse for abortion…and you would agree they all should be legal to make everyone happy? And based on your worldview…no one should stop anyone from doing what they want. Right and wrong are in the eye of the beholder. 

“The basis for punishment of stoning specifically for adultery is clearly provided in Leviticus (20:10-12) which reads: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, even with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and adulteress must be put to death...." Further, in Deuteronomy (22:22-24), it is stated that, "If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you should take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death."


 Why don’t Christians stone people for Sabbath breaking, adultery, murder, or anything else?  Understanding the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant law is important to understand this question. In the Old Covenant, animal sacrifices were made for the sins of the people. But these sacrifices were insufficient to erase the conscience of the worshiper towards sin. The cost of sin was death. Jesus came and He put into place new law with His blood. Matthew 26:26-28 His sacrifice was much more than any animals was. Hebrews 10:1

In I Corinthians 5 there is a story about a man who slept with his father’s wife. “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: a man has his father’s wife…” (verse 1). According to Leviticus 20:11, the punishment should be death. How did the Apostle Paul address the situation?
“4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord…11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. ‘Expel the wicked man from among you.’” (I Cor. 5:4-5, 11-13). Paul didn’t want to put someone to death, he removed the sinner from the congregation. He even expressed that his wish was that the discipline or removal would still result in the man’s salvation on the Day of the Lord when God will make the final decision about life and death.  



“Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.”

Jesus found his teaching on sexual intimacy was found in Genesis where the divine image was expressed in both male and female. Actually any sex unless it is between the marriage of man and woman was sin and is still sin today. 


“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Jesus goes back to Genesis to establish God’s original plan for marriage. God’s moral will for marriage is one man and one woman joined together for life. They are to "cleave" together.  Bottom line Jesus does NOT sanction divorce, marriage was to be permanent. Divorce is caused by sin…but is not unforgivable. 

What is your family concept?

You indicated abortion might not be immoral. But your list is all over the place. Let's get down to brass tacks. I won't even address some of the things on that list. They are not in the same category as abortion.

What is abortion? It is the premeditated killing of a living human being. And today Democrats want all abortions legal...even full term up until the natural delivery of the baby. They don't even want babies saved should they survive a botched abortion. They don't even want pain meds administered to the unborn before they are ripped from their mothers wombs. To do so would be admitting that the unborn is a person. They can't do that.

The fact that you can't admit that this is absolutely barbaric is unbelievable. I can't wrap my head around your kind of logic. You stand up for toothpaste but sit and do nothing while the slaughter continues. 

“(IFF) you consider abortion a moral issue (THEN) you can rest easy knowing for certain that your god of choice will punish all violators

self-ownership is sacrosanct

legal scope does not include all conduct that is broadly agreed to be immoral

for example, the holy scriptures recommend the death penalty for WOMEN (not men) who commit adultery

do you personally believe this holy death penalty should be codified in modern legal systems ?”

Thank you answering my post.

I think abortion is a moral issue. Is killing unborn children moral? How are they killed? It is completely inhumane. They could be sucked out and broken up into a mass of blood and tissue. They could be scraped out. The doctor inserts a spoon-like instrument like forceps and scrapes out the baby. Sometimes he has to cut the baby into several pieces in order to get it out. The chemical method is also used where a toxic salt-water solution is injected into the womb. For the life of me I can’t with all the new technology that is available today confirming personhood…that someone would willingly do this to their child. Is it immoral? Absolutely it is. People use friendly words to describe what happens…but it is a slaughter tied up with a pretty bow to the pro-choicer. Abortion is premeditated murder. 

My God of choice you say?  My God is a loving, just God who will judge everyone who has ever lived including me. I am glad He will because much evil in the world goes unpunished. He will uphold judgement and mercy. Retribution is an important factor here because it connects punishment with wrongdoings or sin. Don’t you think punishment is necessary and rational in a civilized society? For a serial killer to kill dozens of people and not to face any punishment, is that moral? For a drunk driver to kill a family who he happens to hit while driving down the road? A man who brutally rapes a woman? Child molesters, pedophiles? Actions lead to punishment. Why is the concept of Gods punishment for sin so shocking? Wrongdoings have to be recognized in every culture around the world. Justice requires that the wrongdoer be punished. And God will punish, righteously.

When you post something that concerns the Bible will you please post the scripture number so we both can be on the same page. Thanks. 

The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts of murder. Kidnapping, bestiality etc. You mention women. 
When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” John 8:7. This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. God has instituted capital punishment in His Word, and His standard is the highest. God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due. But how fairly does the government carry it out?  Genesis 9:6
Should it be legal? I struggle with it I must be honest. Innocent lives have been lost and in the past I am sure racism played a big part….unjust results. It has Biblical origins for sure.

 

“It takes faith to be an atheist, a blind faith if you look at the causal tree of blind indifferent chance as your maker. How is that reasonable in arriving at morality? Somehow, there is a giant leap from chance happenstance to uniformity of nature and sustainability of these natural laws. We discover these laws, not invent them. And, these laws appear to be a mindful thing because we can use mathematical formulas in expressing and conceptualizing them. Why would that be possible or probable in a blind, indifferent, random chance universe? Does SkepticalOne believe we just invent morality too, that there is no objective mind behind morals, just chance happenstance as the root cause? There is a giant leap between inorganic things and organic mindful, moral people. How does atheism transition between or scale this chasm?”


No one can live without faith even if they just have faith in themselves. I am a Christian and while there are many things I can’t prove scientifically I do not believe my faith or reasoning, morality comes from a blind place. I believe the Bible is true and much of it has been verified even by secular sources. I look at everything in the world that I have seen my entire life (I am 66 years old) and know that all of it could not have come from nothing. Science states that something can’t come from nothing. So how did we get the earth, planets, gravity, solar system, DNA, the egg, the eye, photosynthesis, the tides, all animal life, human life and our miraculous bodies, blood clotting, morality etc….? I choose to believe in God that He was the intelligent creator. What possible answer could a skeptic give when asked to give the proof for what they think was the FIRST CAUSE? I also don’t believe someone can claim to be an atheist because they have to admit they just don’t know. Without God what are we left with? A world with subjective answers to what is moral and what isn’t. Morality that changes. Abortion, once thought to be immoral..now is cool, hip, and many women getting one, wear it like a badge of honor. 


“Human beings are subjective relative beings in that we do not know all things and constantly revise and change our moral views. Once, not long ago, abortion was considered a moral wrong in America, except when the life of the mother was threatened with certain death, such as with a tubal pregnancy. Now, some even condone the abortion of the unborn right up to the time of birth and beyond by choice, by preference, and they pass laws to accommodate their preferences. Who is right? And once again, if there is no objective standard, what makes your view any better than mine? Force, duress? How does that make something good or even objective? So you get a bunch of like minded people to push your views and make it law by force. Dictators, benevolent or tyrannical, do the same thing. What is good about that? SkepticalOne says although he is an atheist he believes in objective morality. Is this reasonable from an atheistic standpoint? How is his view anything but subjective since he needs a true, fixed, unchanging point of reference for something to have objectivity? An objective standard is not subject to personal preference but to what is the case.”

What moral issues do you think can be changed? For the Christian the answer would be none. For the agnostic or skeptic, morality could change, because they live in a world of moral relativity. Whats good for you might not be good for me. What would give anyone the incentive to be a good person if they don’t believe in God? Why would it even matter? How can a society be safe, protect citizens if everything is allowed? And we see the chants from the radical pink abortion loving people to allow all abortions because it’s her body, her choice and no one else, even the living human child inside her matters?  I wonder what this crowd will want next. Does this living without God worldview provide an adequate basis for meaningful thought and life? That question is constantly asked to Christians...rarely asked of the atheist/skeptic?  

So you hate abortion....why? Whats wrong with it?

If it is wrong why do you tolerate something you think is immoral? Would you do this with child-trafficking? Child or spousal abuse? Underage drinking? 

What would you stand up against if not abortion?

Let's talk morality shall we.

You imply anyone denying a woman the right to kill her unborn at any time for any reason is immoral and wrong because its her body, her choice, her decision.

Do you also believe that other laws that keep people from using their bodies the way they want to use them should be done away with because it should be up to the person?  Examples: Any kind of incest? Using any drug of ones choice and selling drugs to people who might want to take them? Any kind of sex act with any person of any age who wants to partake? Doing away with seatbelt laws, helmet laws? Assisted suicide? Suicide? Selling a body part? Nudity anywhere? Prostitution? No alcohol laws. Abortion for any reason..even for sex selection, gender issues? 

The fact is the government tells us what we can do with our bodies and abortion is no different because many issues deal with morality and providing a safe moral society to live in. Trouble today...there is no line of morality anymore...everything goes. How livable is a society that allows someone to just do anything they want to do?

Then you are pro-child dismemberment which is a sad worldview to have. How can you justify killing unborn human beings in the womb at any time and for any reason? Your position sickens my heart.