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n8nrgim

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it is irrational to argue that there's no evidence for the afterlife
it looks like there's been an outbreak of atheism lately on the forum. i thought i'd bump this thread to remind atheists how stupid they are. 
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Briefly addressing Antinatalism (voluntary human extinction)
life is a struggle for almost everyone. but i would still say overall the good outweighs the bad. even the poorest among us have a lot to be thankful for. it's about perspective. there's a lot of people born with disease, or people who come into massive problems, but those are the exception, not the rule. as jesus said about those who are born diseased, they were allowed to be made that way... allowed, not created... so that one day, even if it's in the afterlife, when their poor condition is changed for the better.... God will be glorified. 

trying to make a virtual reality or otherwise escape reality is just avoiding the truth as it is. i mean i guess it's okay to have a way to escape, if it's done in a healthy way, but the truth needs accepted as the truth, otherwise a person is living a lie. i suppose the details would need to be determined on a case by case basis. 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
Allowing guns on campus would not prevent mass shootings and would actually increase the risk of gun violence. Research indicates that this policy would likely lead to more gun homicides and suicides, more nonfatal shootings, and more threats with a firearm on college campuses.9

In fact, colleges and universities, which have traditionally prohibited guns on campus, are already relatively safe from gun violence. Among all violent crime against college students from 1995 through 2002, 93 percent of incidents took place off campus.10 According to Everytown for Gun Safety’s tracking of incidents of gunfire on school grounds, an average of 10 gun homicides occur on college campuses each year, while almost 20 million students attend colleges or universities.11

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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
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@Greyparrot
i dont think there's too many people who are against armed security. only a small segment of stupid people think that. you shouldn't try to pigeon hole everyone else or straw man everyone else who doesn't think that. 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
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@Greyparrot
i mean i admit that gun free zones are sometimes a gray area... but the idea that guns dont sometimes cause murder when it otherwise wouldn't wouldn't occur, is an idiotic idea. 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
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@Greyparrot
u r arguing for armed security and not allowing guns at some places... why not having armed security and allowing guns at all these gun free zones? i mean we can't have metal detectors everywhere. why dont you guys have courage to your convictions and argue that everywhere without metal detectors should allow everyone to have guns? 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
shouldn't the fact that disney has a lot of armed security mean that they should allow people to have guns? there's the idea that armed security can keep it safe even if guns aren't allowed... but there's also the supposed argument that citizens with guns make the place safer and those with guns are less likely to use them if their armed guards there. it's almost like gun nuts dont want to stick to courage to their convictions and say guns should be allowed at disney. 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
should sporting events lift their use of gun free zones?
should college campuses?
should walmart allow open carry? 
should government buildings?
should military bases?
should national parks allow open carry?

i dont see it as obvious that self defense will trump people impulsively killing others when they otherwise wouldn't 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
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@YouFound_Lxam
dont you think this lesson about disney is applicable to many other areas too? that maybe having gun free zones is often, if not usually, a better situation to be in? 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
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@Greyparrot
what do armed guards have to do with whether disney is a gun free zone? there can be armed guards and still not be a gun free zone. 
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what would happen if disney was no longer a gun free zone?
disney is a gun free zone. i assume there aren't a lot of murders there. yes, if it was no longer a gun free zone, maybe there would occasionally be successful self defense when attacks do occur. there's a far out chance someone will happen to have a gun to attack a mass shooter, if that ever happened. 

but what seems most likely? it seems most likely that impulsive people will occasionally murder others, when they otherwise wouldn't. the ability to just push a button and people die, makes a difference in whether or not people die sometimes, considering how impulsive people are. 

the bottom line. maybe letting teachers pack heat might have a good benefit, given teachers are generally morally upstanding. but in general, changing gun free zones to not gun free zones doesn't automatically sound like a slam dunk idea. i mean, often, like this disney example... it's a terrible idea. 


ive been debating a lot of you guys on impulsivity and gun use, and ya'll always whimper away and dont finish the debate, or follow your own thoughts to their logical conclusions. maybe those debating me, will stick around this time, and admit their ideas dont make sense, or be so far off base that it's obvious to everyone else that that's the case. 
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Trump urges GOP to let catastrophic debt default happen if Dems don’t accept cuts
they should just set national spending as a percent of our GDP, so that we're always spending relatively the same.
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Trump urges GOP to let catastrophic debt default happen if Dems don’t accept cuts

Trump urges GOP to let catastrophic debt default happen if Dems don’t accept cuts

Former President Donald Trump on Wednesday urged Republican lawmakers to let the United States default on its debt if Democrats don’t agree to spending cuts.
“I say to the Republicans out there — congressmen, senators — if they don’t give you massive cuts, you’re going to have to do a default,” said Trump, who is again running for president. “And I don’t believe they’re going to do a default because I think the Democrats will absolutely cave, will absolutely cave because you don’t want to have that happen. But it’s better than what we’re doing right now because we’re spending money like drunken sailors.”

When pushed by CNN anchor Kaitlan Collins to clarify his remarks, Trump said: “Well, you might as well do it now, because you’ll do it later. Because we have to save this country. Our country is dying. Our country is being destroyed by stupid people, by very stupid people.”
Trump made the remarks during a CNN town hall during which he defended his supporters who staged a violent insurrection at the U.S. Capitol in January 2021 and mocked the writer E. Jean Carroll a day after a jury found him liable for sexually abusing and defaming her.
Trump is the leading contender for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination. He would likely look to use a default to his political advantage were he to face President Joe Biden in a rematch next year.
His comments came weeks before the U.S. is projected to run out of cash to pay its bills unless Congress addresses the debt limit. Since January, the U.S. government has taken extraordinary measures to avoid default.

A default would trigger chaos in markets and result in millions of job losses, according to analysts and economists. Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling three times during Trump’s presidency.
Trump’s words could encourage his many GOP supporters in the House to harden their stance against raising the debt limit without corresponding spending cuts. Biden has said he won’t negotiate over raising the debt limit, although he said he is open to discussing ways to reduce spending in a separate context.
Biden and the top four congressional leaders, including Trump supporter House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., will meet again to discuss the debt ceiling on Friday. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen has said the U.S. government could hit the debt limit as soon as June 1.




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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo
so if you agree that the presence of a gun can make a difference on whether someone dies or not... then why are we debating? and are you sure you even disagree with me? 

i'm pretty sure you said someone could have a knife and not be as likely to kill than if they had a gun, so i still think you are contradicting yourself. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo

so do you, or do you not think that the the presence of a gun can determine whether someone ultimatley dies or not? you keep saying it things like it makes no difference, and then you go and agree with everything i say. 

"the thing is, i've shown that if a gun isn't present, they won't kill, sometimes, and then could change their mind before using premeditation. 

Thats fine. I never disagreed with that because people choose weapons to kill. Pretty rare for someone to be charged with premeditated murder because they punched the person to death.  

Now you gotta continue to show that all other weapons being present or available while a gun is not will still result in the same conclusion. No killing.  

botttom line, the presence of a gun makes a difference, sometimes, in whether someone ultimately dies. 

I agree. Just probably differ on reason why "


how can you say you agree with me and differ in the reason why? you keep changing your position. the whole premise for us debating is that your position is that the presence of a gun makes no difference in whether someone ultimately dies. you can't negate your own position and then pretend we're disagreeing. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo
"Can you elaborate on this and how a person isnt necessarily bound to later use premeditation to follow their impulse? 

I agree with this. "

a person can change their mind. they might have a murderous impulse with a decision to kill, but lack the means to do so. if they change their mind before acquiring the means to do so, then the murder won't occur. 

you keep weaving in and out of agreeing with me and not, because i think you are contradicting yourself. you can't agree with me and then not agree with me at the same time. here is what you are doing: you are agreeing that a person can change their mind, but then also you are saying the presence of a gun makes no difference if someone dies or not. you are one of those chumps that say people kill people and the gun is just a tool. the thing is, i've shown that if a gun isn't present, they won't kill, sometimes, and then could change their mind before using premeditation. botttom line, the presence of a gun makes a difference, sometimes, in whether someone ultimately dies. 

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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo
"Im saying having any weapon around will not change course for an impulsive murder because for that person, the desire and means are all there. Yes maybe for some they will not try to kill if they see a weapon they can not yield, but that is the start of a concious decision instead of impulsive act. Now we get into premeditated because the person is now thinking about how to kill, unless they stop their desire and do not kill.  "

this is where your theory falls apart. you acknowledge that if someone has a weopon but it's not good enough to go on a rampage, they won't do it even if they would have with a gun. *a person isn't necessarily bound to later use premeditation to follow up on their impulse.* - this is the key that you miss. the other key point that you are messing up, is that just because someone has a weopon doesn't mean they will go on an impulsive rampage if the weopon is inadequate for the job. they can in fact change their mind... which is why all ya'll's acting like the presence of a gun makes no difference is so stupid. if they had a gun, they would of killed, but since they didn't have a gun, they didn't kill and have the possibility to change their mind, which would necessarily happen sometimes. 
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can a christian who is saved decide not to be saved?
some christians might say that's not possible... if they are saved, they can't be unsaved. but what about free will? i think as long as you are trying to be good and have complete faith that Jesus will save you, then you will be saved. but i think if we respect free will and all the bible passages about falling away, it's possible to become unsaved. afterall, jesus said some seeds will start growing, only to wither and die due to worldly concern. and, Hebrews 10:26. ESV says 'For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins', to say they can't lose their salvation is like saying they can't choose to sin. 



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can a christian who is saved decide not to be saved?
some christians might say that's not possible... if they are saved, they can't be unsaved. but what about free will? i think as long as you are trying to be good and have complete faith that Jesus will save you, then you will be saved. but i think if we respect free will and all the bible passages about falling away, it's possible to become unsaved. afterall, jesus said some seeds will start growing, only to wither and die due to worldly concern. and, Hebrews 10:26. ESV says 'For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins', to say they can't lose their salvation is like saying they can't choose to sin. 



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salvation seems to be both an event, and a process
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@Tradesecret
how do you view the doctrine of 'once saved always saved"? i think you might be getting at the idea that it's possible to lose one's salvation. at least, you on one way say people must work out their salvation but then say they only need to work out the fruit of their salvation. maybe you mean working out their salvation is such that they are working through while being saved the whole time? or maybe you just mean it's possible to fall away and they must work through that?  cause it's a theological possiblity that a person can be clearly in a state of salvation, but later with free will decide not to be saved. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo
then it looks like you are contradicting yourself. you say it's possible for someone to change their mind about murder. sometimes murders are impulsive. it's possible someone only had a knife when they wanted to kill a bunch of people, and would have killed them had they had a gun... but couldn't kill at that time due to the circumstance. if they later change their mind, then whether a gun was present made a difference. yet, you say whether a gun is present makes no difference, or that having more guns around makes no difference.

obviously it can make a big difference, and given how impulsive people are, there are probably a lot of murders that wouldn't have happened if the person simply didn't have a gun. 
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salvation of non christians is probably possible
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@Tradesecret
what r ur thoughts?
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salvation seems to be both an event, and a process
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@Tradesecret
you say there is sanctification in protestantism, which is a life long event. but the thing is, protestants dont usually say that sanctication is tied to one's salvation other than to say that someone who is saved becomes sanctified. is it your stance that most protestants view salvation as a one time event and a process? if that were true, then catholics and protestants dont really think differently on this view even though they're always said to be different. 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
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@Tradesecret
is your stance both that a sin before God needs repented of, and also that another person shouldn't be forgiven by a victimized person if the other person doesn't repent?
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
well, there's repentance of each sin, but there's also repentance of all one's sins generally. and there's also being sorry for sins you refuse to stop doing, which is a kind of repentance. i guess it depends on your context. 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
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@Best.Korea
i mean, i can see arguing that we are saved by faith and not faith and works, but i think by far even most reputable protestant theologians would say repentance is necessary. jesus is always talking about the need to do good, and to repent. in the letter james, he says we are justified with faith and works. of course, you can interpret these things to mean that doing good isn't what saves you, but you have to at least acknowledge that doing good or having a propensity to do good is required. as martin luther said in the reformation.... we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. 

how can you possibly think repentance isn't necessary to be saved? 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
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@Savant
excellent post 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
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@BrotherD.Thomas
are you the only person on planet earth who is a TRUE christian? how many TRUE christians are there?
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?

The Limits of Forgiveness

Every year of mankind’s fallen history witnesses countless sins, large and small. When they are committed against us, it raises the question of forgiveness, since Jesus made it clear that we must be willing to forgive.
The prior two years witnessed particularly heinous crimes. The year 2001 saw the terrorist attacks, and 2002 saw the priestly sexual abuse scandal. In the wake of both of them, people were pondering the subject of forgiveness.
I remember, in the days immediately following 9/11, people calling Catholic Answers Live confused because their priests had told them that the U.S. must not strike back against the terrorists because of the Christian duty of forgiveness.

After the sex scandal broke, there were many—even those who had not themselves been abused—vociferously declaring that they “could never forgive” the priestly abusers for what they had done.
There’s something wrong with both of these views of forgiveness. The latter reflects the all-too-human tendency to not forgive no matter what the circumstances. It’s the attitude toward which Christ’s teachings regarding forgiveness are directed.
The former attitude reflects the opposite extreme, insisting on all forms of forgiveness regardless of the circumstances. Though this attitude of hyper-forgiveness seeks to cloak itself in the teachings of Christ, in reality it goes far beyond what Christ asks us to do and even what God himself does.
Christ’s most famous injunction regarding forgiveness is found in the Our Father: “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12—and it is debts in Greek though the common English translation uses the word trespasses).
Just to make sure we get the point, Jesus singles this petition out for special commentary: “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:14–15).
So that’s it. You have to forgive if you want to be forgiven.
Forgiveness and Feelings
This creates the urgent question: What does it mean to forgive someone? This is a sticky issue because there are certain things that commonly go under the name of forgiveness that are difficult or impossible for us to do.
For example, we often think of forgiving people in terms of not being angry with them anymore, of having warm, positive feelings toward them. When we tell people that we forgive them for what they did, we often smile and try to convey the impression that we have warm feelings even though we still may feel angry.
Since our forgiveness before God is conditional on our willingness to forgive others, a person with a feelings-based understanding of forgiveness could conclude that he isn’t forgiven by God until he has rosy feelings about everyone in the world. This would lead him to try to manufacture positive feelings for others. When these feelings are not forthcoming, it can make him scared for his salvation, emotionally dry, frustrated, or even angry with God for making his salvation contingent on what kind of feelings he has when he doesn’t have full control of them. That way lies despair.
But the feelings-based view of forgiveness is wrong for precisely the reason that the previous two scenarios turn on: We don’t have full control of our feelings.
Sure, we can influence them. If a particular subject makes us angry, we can try to think about something else. We can ask ourselves questions like “Was it really that bad?” or “What good can come from this?” or “What can I learn from this?” to put the subject in perspective.
But these efforts dance around the anger itself. They attempt to influence it from the outside. There is no way for us to reach into ourselves and flip a switch that causes the anger to vanish and be replaced by rosy feelings.
What we can’t control we are not responsible for. Since we have only indirect influence on our feelings, we can be responsible for how we strive to manage them
but not for having them.


What Forgiveness Is Not
Of course, what we would really like in getting someone’s forgiveness is for things to be just as if we had never offended him. We’d like things to go back to exactly the way they were.
That may not happen. Even if someone’s ill feelings for us go away, prudence may dictate that he will not treat us in exactly the same way. This is particularly the case if we have broken trust with him.
Consider the extremes we mentioned earlier: If someone is a terrorist or a child molester then—no matter how penitent he may be—he simply cannot be treated as if he had never committed his crimes.
Most of us have committed offenses nowhere near that bad, but the principle still holds. We sense it in our interactions with others. If someone has violated our trust, we may be able to let go of our anger, but that doesn’t mean that we’re going to put our trust in him again. Our trust will have to be earned.
Forgiveness thus does not mean treating someone as if they had never sinned. That would require us to let go of our reason as well as our anger.
The Church acknowledges this principle. In his encyclical Dives in Misericordia, John Paul II notes that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness” (DM 14).
Preemptive Forgiveness?
We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen “unconditional” forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).
This is not what is required of us.
Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.
The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.
If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn’t required of us that we forgive the person.
This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?”
I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.
Not everybody is forgiven. Otherwise, we’d all be walking around in a state of grace all the time and have no need of repentance to attain salvation. God doesn’t like people being unforgiven, and he is willing to grant forgiveness to all, but he isn’t willing to force it on people who don’t want it. If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.
Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness.
If God doesn’t forgive the unrepentant, and it is not correct to tell people that they need to do so, what is required of us?
What Forgiveness Is
Jesus calls us to be like God in the showing of mercy “that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 5:45). So how does God forgive?
Scripture tells us that he “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4) and the he is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
We should have the same attitude. We should will the good of every soul, even the most evil ones. No matter who they are or what they’ve done, we need to will their ultimate good, which is salvation through repentance.
What if they don’t repent?
One may hope that they were not culpable for their actions and so can be saved, that they were affected by mental disorder, intense pressure, ignorance, indoctrination, or something that affected their judgment so that they weren’t responsible for their actions at the time they committed them.
But what if they were?
We may hope that they are brought around to repentance. In fact, we ought to hope this even for those who weren’t responsible for their actions. But to be brought to repentance often requires suffering the consequences of one’s sins.
This is where righteous anger comes in. It is often said that anger is a desire for vengeance (cf. ST II-II:158:1). This puts it a little more harshly than many today would want to say it, but anger does involve a desire that the offending person experience the consequences of his sins. Without this desire, the feeling would be something less than anger, such as simple frustration.
Anger is righteous—in keeping with justice—if it is still fundamentally directed toward the good. Thus one may wish that a person experience the consequences of his offenses to sufficiently understand how he has hurt others, and teach him to not commit them in the future.
However, “if he desires the punishment of one who has not deserved it, or beyond his deserts, or again contrary to the order prescribed by law, or not for the due end—namely the maintaining of justice and the correction of faults—then the desire of anger will be sinful” (ibid., 2).
It is so easy for us in our fallen state to slip into sinful anger that Scripture repeatedly warns us against it, but anger serves a fundamental purpose.
If a person with whom we are angry repents, then the obligation to forgive kicks in. This means that we must be willing to set aside our anger because he no longer deserves it. We may still feel it for a time, and it can even be advisable to let him know this in order to underscore the lesson he needs to have learned. But we do need to manage our emotions so that we let the anger go and, to the best of our ability, encourage it to fade.
And what if a person doesn’t repent when all is said and done?
At some point we need to let our feeling of anger fade, not for his sake but for ours. It isn’t good for us to stay angry, and it poses temptations to sin. Ultimately, we have to let go of the feeling of anger and move on with life. Frequently we have to do so even when a person has not repented.
But for the person himself, what should we hope? With regret, we recognize that it is appropriate that he gets what he chose, even if that was hell. This is, after all, the attitude taken by God toward those who choose death rather than life.
here is a good article i was thinking of. it says a person could be virtuous in doing so but doesn't need to forgive the unrepentant just the same as God doesn't forgive the unrepentant. it's written from a catholic perspective, but it is still christian and bible based. 

i think the best bet is to look at the issue through legality v reconciliation lenses of forgiveness, as i said. 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
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@Best.Korea
that phrase though is open to interpretation. could be said that we only forgive if they repent... just as we are only forgiven if we repent. 
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salvation seems to be both an event, and a process
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@Best.Korea
those are good ideas. yes, the idea of eternal torture is sadistic. but i think we should also be open to annihilation, for those who have no hope. the soul simply ceases to exist. 
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is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?
one of the foundational aspects of forgiveness is repentence. or that someone ask for it to receive it. some traditional christians like some catholics say it's not necessary to forgive everyone, or those who are unrepentent, cause God doesn't either. if we look at the eastern concept of forgiveness, it also implies reconciliation. you can only forgive those you are reconciled with. it's about establishing communion, and we can't commune with someone closed off to us. 

but Jesus does say 'the measure you use will be measured to you'. which might indicate that the standard we use to forgive might be the standard God uses with us. at the end of John, he says 'whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained'. catholics like to say this creates the idea of their confession, but protestants like to say this just means we have the power to save people through our preaching. neither of these ideas really fit that well, but both are compelling. we might say that if we dont forgive, they aren't forgiven, their sin is retained. between the two of you. but we have to remember that our measure will be measured to us. 

to incorporate NDE philsophy, everyone can acheive salvation. maybe of legal matters, we are all forgiven. but when it comes to the eastern concept of reconciliation, it is impossible to forgive someone we can't commune with. 

so, maybe in the sense that is most meaningful, we cant forgive if we can't reconcile.... but we can always be open to reconcilation if they repent, or if it's a matter of looking past brusised egos and letting bygones be bygones... or as saint paul said, 'just let it slide'.
but when it comes to legality, but we can forgive but maybe it is up to each person how they want to treat that. but i would think if we use legality against others, it could be used against us. ultimately i think it's wisest to forgive everyone, not just cause that's what we want when we are unrepentant, but because it's the godliest thing to do. 
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salvation of non christians is probably possible

the bible only talks about rejecting the truth as the basis of condemnation. 

around the infamous john 316, it says the light didn't come to the world to condemn it, but to save it. the condemnation comes when someone perfers darkness over the light. 

also in john, jesus also said 'unless you believe i am he, you will die in your sins.'. this implies a rejection. 

at the end of mark jesus said, 'go and baptize the world. he who beleives and is baptized will be saved, he who doesn't will be condemned'. again, this implies rejection. 

i think there's one or two other examples where rejection is implied. 

there are some references to 'unbelievers' being unsaved in the new testament letters, but you have to consider whether John 316 defined unbelievers as those who reject the light for preferring darkness. it is possible to insist these unbeliever references should be taken literatlly and all unbelievers are unsaved, but i think that ignores the context i mentioned above. 

we also have to consider that NDEs teach us implicitly that everyone can experience heaven, regardless of religion or creed. but i think it's important to remember that we have free will, and if we prefer darkness over light... that is what we will get. 
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salvation seems to be both an event, and a process
protestants like to say they are saved, end of discussion. catholics say you have to work out your eventual salvation... but if you look closer, they are willing to say salvation is both an event and a process. i dont think it's very standard for a protestant to say salvation can be a process? 

i think the way to look at this is simply by looking at the question of 'being forgiven'. when we pray the our father, we ask as christians to be forgiven. we dont say 'thank you for forgiving me'. it's a very basic idea of repentance that's foundational... for that foundation to be off would be a wild accusation. 

it's also worth noting, that the bible often talks about falling away and such. like the parable of the seeds and how jesus said some start to grow only to later wilt due to worldly concern. only some seeds grow to maturity. 

it's also worth tying the 'assurance of salvation' and 'once saved always saved' ideas to the idea of salvation.
-the bible says you can know you are saved, but given all the other examples where it says you can fall away, i would say that knowing one is saved is a special gift for a special person. jesus did say 'not everyone who says to me lord lord will inherit the kingdom, but only those who do the will of the father'. it's a lot to read into this that you can't know you are saved, but we have to at least remember that acknowleding jesus as lord is not enough. i think we can all agree that just thinking you are saved isn't enough? it does get into murky territory but there's always a hypothetical mass murderer who is pathologically propensed to think he is saved.
-also, i think free will is such that a person can always loose their salvation for practical purposes, but for practical purposes some people can know they are saved, and always will be saved, practically.

to tie into this near death experience philosophy, a person can be loved unconditionally, and in that sense they are always saved, but a person still must face the consequences of their actions. like a mother unconditionally loves her children, she also must let them face their own consequences and actions. it's like near death philosophy says, we go to where our vibration permits. if we have a low vibration, out soul can be saved by becoming a genuine christian. that's all that's necessary. because you will grow into higher vibrations and god has your back. if your words are empty, you wont grow into higher vibrarations. there's a question about whether hell is eternal given near death philosphy, and most of those guys like to say hell is a prison. i think we can all agree that an eternal hell is possible given our free will, but we have to wonder the open question of if hell is eternal for practical purposes. it very well could be, or maybe not. it is central that hell does exist though. only one percent of NDEs are hellish, and they usually just consider that it was a learning experience. a wake up call. 

it's interesting that 'once saved always saved', ties into salvation like that. just like how it's intersesting that 'atonement' ties into the 'justification' and salvation ideas. and lately i've been incorporating NDE philsophy as well. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
i dont know why you guys think an impulsive decision to kill, necesssarily won't change when the person has time to consider the consequences and come to their better senses. apparently every unsuccessful impulsive decision to kill, will later be followed up with a thought out decision to hunt the victims down. 

makes perfect sense. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
it's easy to see this as a situation where the man had a knife, and was playing his music too loud and was asked to stop. he wouldn't have killed them in that situation given all he had was a knife... but apparently we can rest assured he would have hunted them down one by one later when the ability to kill was easier. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@hey-yo
so you dont think the impulsive nature of how easy it is to push a button, changes whether or not someone might decide to kill others?  you seriously think he would have later premeditated and hunted them down one by one if he only had a knife at first?

so there's second degree murder. or murder where the situation such that a person's mental state is factored in to the punishment given they acted impulsively to the circumstances. you seriously think every second degree murder would have turned into a premeditated first degree murder, if the person didn't have a gun and the means to kill when they were in an agitated state, but later decided to hunt and kill anyway?

so every potential second degree murder with no feasible way to murdering, will eventually became a first degree murder when they have the ability to kill easier? 

that's one of the stupidest things i ever heard. 
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The STUPID shit politicians claim about guns is dumbfounding…

-where there is more gun control, there is less murder. this is the scientific consensus, as shown with the literature review. being a literature review makes this a lot more informing than just being a single study; we see the consensus forming. also included is a link to a poll of scientists but a literature review itself makes the claims even stronger.
-where there are more guns, there is more murder, across geographic regions from localities and larger. this is also a lot more informing because it a literature review of lots of studies. what's more, people are shown not to kill with other weopons instead of guns, as is often argued, because if they did there would be no correlation here.
-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
-you are more likely to be murdered if you have a gun, as well as those close to you
-States with more gun control have fewer mass shootings
-only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher. the odds of being shot and not necessarily killed are upwards of four hundred times higher. 
-we have half the worlds guns in the usa but a small percent of the worlds population
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
-Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. 
-High school kids in the USA are eighty two times more likely to be shot than the same kids in other developed countries.
-it is claimed that most murders are gang related, but this looks to be factually incorrect in the link. even if higher numbers floating around on the internet are true, our murder problem still there if you take out the gang murders from consideration. the numbers here can be arrived at with basic math. 
-this really isn't just a mental health problem. we don't have more people with mental health problems than other countries.... just more people with guns.  the study controls for mental health factors v other factors. 
-we dont have more crime than the rest of the world, just a lot more people getting shot and killed. you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix: non-gun homicides are slightly on the higher side but within normal range, while gun homicides go wildly higher. If this was a bad person problem at its core, there would be a wildly higher amount of non-gun homicides as well, but that's not the case. Included is an article describing this phenomenon and a link with a picture. 
-people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone. ///  you can do the math yourself. there are 2.5 million assault rifles in circulation. 374 rifle deaths per year. there are 11000 gun homicides. there's a gun for every person in the usa, 340 million. what's the math say? 374 divided by 11000 is 3.4 percent of deaths are from rifles. 2.5 milliion divided by 340 milliion is less than a percent. so what does this mean? despite rifles being less than a percent of guns, they cause 3.4 percent of deaths. that is, a rifle has a higher percent chance of being used to murder than a non rifle. most guns that are used in murder are hand guns, but assault rifles are more likely to be chosen over a hand gun when faced with that choice. just like, as an analogy, people are more likely to speed in a sports car, but most cars that speed are not sports cars.  
-people like to throw around number of defensive gun use. the idea is that not all defensive gun uses result in a killing. the most common number in literature is tens of thousands, though the number vary wildly. the only thing is, even if you are more likely to use a gun in self defense than being murdered, you are still more likely to be murdered than someone who doesn't have a gun. also, a lot of those thousands of defensive uses are not all that critical.... downplaying their significance. and, a lot of those 'defensive' uses were actually situations that were people instigating and escalating a situation that wouldn't otherwise exist, as the link below illustrates. even if we used the higher numbers, is it all that convincing that there are tens of thousands more near murders in a nation with already a globally disproportionate number of murders? it holds true, that we could give lots more people guns, and that may increase defensive use... but it would come at the cost of more murder, too.
-for more on giving an overview of the gun issues, see the following
-in the usa, the number of murders has overall gone down in recent decades. the thing is, while the number of guns went up, the number of people owning them went down. also, this is just one measure: all the other measure include all the countries and localities where gun levels are proportionate to murder rates.
-for more information on gun policy in the usa and other countries: www.gunpolicy.org 
-australia. they enacted major gun reform around twenty years ago after a mass shooting. they bought back a bunch of guns and enacted other gun control. their mass shootings stopped. this almost surely is not an anomloy. their homicides dropped by up to fifty percent. the idea is a lower murder rate came with a lower percent of people owning guns (note that this is different than the specific gun ownership rate because if less people own more guns that could cause the percent owning to go down but the overall rate could be the same). misinformation attempts like to point that overall murder went up slightly after reform, but the rate did not and went down. also, the number of guns have gone up closer to previous level but the gun ownership rate is still lower. it is true that global murder went down, and some of that correlates with australi's rate... but global reductions arent as drastic s australia's.
-japan. they literally have barely any murders, and barely any guns. they have a rigorous process for allowing guns

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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@PREZ-HILTON
the amount of people arguing about 'ban all guns' v 'no dont ban all guns' is a fringe debate given this debate isn't very common. you must not be paying attention. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@PREZ-HILTON
many conservatives think gun control makes no difference to the murder rate. many think the precense of guns doesn't increase murder rates. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@PREZ-HILTON
i ascknowledge and never denied that guns have self defense points to them. and i never made the argument that you shoudln't have a gun. some people shouldn't have guns, though, and if we tell them they shouldn't have a gun, they might decide not to get one. not everyone is a black hoodie who will stop at nothing to get a gun illegally. if the man in the example was told not to have a gun, and he listened, this incident may not have happened. 

so. 1. guns increase murder rate 2. gun control decreases murder rate.

trying to get gun nuts to acknowledge these facts is like trying to nail jello to the wall, given said gun nuts lack common sense. 
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Another mass shooting in Texas. Violent crime in red states is out of control
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@YouFound_Lxam
i admit that he would have had murderous rage even if he didn't have a gun. but he had a gun. so you acknowledge that he wouldn't have killed them if he had a knife? is your position so stupid that you think he would have later hunted them down to kill them one by one? if your position isn't that stupid, then why dont you just admit that the presence of a gun made a difference here in whether people were murdered?  
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@PREZ-HILTON
you are deflecting. my point is that the precense of a gun makes situations more deadly than other weopons. feel free to admit this point, if that's your position. everyone else who are gun nuts like to pretend guns make no difference in the murder rate, so i'm just giving a solid example of how that's not true. 
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Another mass shooting in Texas. Violent crime in red states is out of control
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@YouFound_Lxam
"so you think if this guy didn't have a gun, that he would have 1. first of all attempted to kill all those people 2. he would have been successful killing all those people?"

you didn't answer the question. see above. please answer. you think if he had a knife, he would have attempted to kill them all, and that he would have been successful? 

the point, is that people are more likely to murder others if they have a gun versus if they have other weapons. people are impulsive and a gun is a push a button response that other weopons aren't like that. 
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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
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@Mharman
what happened was realistic whether or not he was drunk. these things happen all the time, both ways. 

you didn't answer the question...

"so you think if this guy didn't have a gun, that he would have 1. first of all attempted to kill all those people 2. he would have been successful killing all those people?"

you just fail to realize that human pyschology is such that the ability to push a button and people are dead, combined with people's impulsivity,  means that the presence of a gun is more deadly than if it was just a knife.  people are more likely to kill if they have a gun. that's common sense and i bet you won't even answer my question that i quoted, cause this is a perfect example of how a gun being present changed things. 

you also fail to realize that if you tell someone they can't have a gun, not all those people will run and and get one illegally. i'm talking about people who shouldn't have a gun. many will get them on the black market, but many won't. if they didn't get one illegally, and they were the person in this hypothetical, then people are less likely to die. 

this stuff is such common sense, that it's mind blowing how much ya'll lack critical thinking. 

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texas shooter attempted/suceeeded in killing those people if he didn't have a gun?
A texas gunman shoots his neighbors, including an 8 year old boy because they asked him to stop shooting his rifle in his front yard. 5 killed 3 injured.

so you think if this guy didn't have a gun, that he would have 1. first of all attempted to kill all those people 2. he would have been successful killing all those people?

people who think the presence of guns makes no difference in murder rate, lack critical thinking skills. 

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Another mass shooting in Texas. Violent crime in red states is out of control
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@YouFound_Lxam

so you think if this guy didn't have a gun, that he would have 1. first of attempted to kill all those people 2. he would have been successful killing all those people?

people who think the presence of guns makes no difference in murder rate, lack critical thinking skills. 
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let's mass debate to see who's the best master baiter
so far i see no one talking about baiting a hook, and no one unzipping their pants. this thread isn't isn't goin anywhere on point. 
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let's mass debate to see who's the best master baiter
what say ye? 
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How Christian men can find a 2nd class woman for their wife!
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Is clubbing a woman and dragging her to your cave like a caveman a God approved method of picking up women?
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