secularmerlin

@mopac

You have spent months giving a circular argument. Is it any wonder we both feel like we are chasing our tails?

Until you answer my question we are at an impasse.

What is the difference between reality and the ultimate reality?

No it is not. Reality most likely exists. That is what I can say while remaining intellectually honest unless something about the situation changes.

Do you consider a difference if opinion a personal slight? If so you will spend a lot if ypur life being unnecessarily offended at people who mean you no wrong. If there is a difference between reality (as separate from my perceptions) then tell me what the difference is. If you are unable or unwilling to do this then you have no one to blame for my ability to accept ypur words but yourself.

Either stop the name calling and personal attacks or I can't help but believe that you are a very rude person who gives christians a bad name and also that you have no reasonable argument to offer.

Either I already have or you have not adequately defined what you mean by ultimate reality. Which is it?

@Grugore

Threats are not arguments and infinite punishment for finite transgressions is not justice. Also if there are any real god(s) and they care wether or not I believe why send you, an imperfect human who resorts to threats to make his point, instead of simply contacting me directly, or even just providing concrete evidence to support said existence?

Also also I would have to be quite insecure before someone not knowing for certain that I exist was something I thought ypubwpuld be punished for. I would hate to think that ypur god(s) were that insecure.

Are you the final arbiter of the meaning of the bible? If taken literally it contradicts itself flatly and if it is not taken literally it can be reinterpreted to mean nearly a anything. In either case it is as good as useless trying trying to puzzle it out but it is clearly in favor of slavery and misogyny and forgives this Yahweh person for perpetrating and/or instigating multiple genocides. It us an odd worldview indeed that considers that desirable or moral. Certainly that is a "morality" which is completely divorced from promoting physical wellbeing.

I'm getting a little tired of the name calling, especially in light of the fact that I have always treated you with respect regardless of your conduct towards me. 

Btw who is they and why would I care what they think?

Unless there is a difference between reality (as separate from my perceptions) and the ultimate reality I already have. If there is a difference you had better define ultimate reality better before I can say that honestly.

Now that we've cleared that up.

Oh I'm sorry that was a typo.should read I do not mean my perceptions.

I have never accused you af being stupid. I have not once resorted to name calling. That is beneath me. Arguments stand or fail on their own. To call your fellow interlocutor stupid is to ma man ad hominem attack and that is a logical fallacy .

Thread and post please. Otherwise retract this unfounded claim.

Saying something is real doesn't tell us anything about that something beyond its existence. Kindly stop pretending it does. 

I've read it more than once. Cover to cover. I know what it says. That is part of why I'm an atheist and most of why I'm an atheist in regards to Yahweh specifically. 

One more time I'm not talking about my perceptions I'm talking about reality. What is the difference between that and ultimate reality.

Truth is a concept not an actual thing. Reality is an actual thing but unless you know what is real just saying "reality" is meaningless

That is funny but just a little sad.

In the absence of a full and sensible definition from you what other choice do you leave us? Come on define your god(s) without using a circular argument just one time.

When I say reality I do mean my perceptions. What is the difference between reality (noumana) and the ultimate reality?

The only argument your opponent made was that you don't know the truth. Go back and read his arguments again.

What is the difference between reality and the ultimate reality? I'm especially interested in the practical tangible difference if there is one.

No one said that. They only said you don't know the truth and they are right as far as I can tell.

The bible does however contradict itself as you pointed put when you countered Peter 3:15 with another passage that says essentially the opposite.

Ask me anything.

That contradicts Peter 3:15. Which then is the "rightest" of the two passages? How does one decide which principle to follow when the bible contradicts itself as it does so often? 

Indeed physical continuity is the key to why I do not wish to be transported. The pattern (often referred to in episodes centering around transporter technology as a plot device) is only the recipe and when someone is transported they are not the same cake.

Like the journal it is only the recipe and if you make two identical cakes using the same recipe they are not the same cake so any thing eventually created from this recipe would also not be me although it might think it was.

About uploading your conciousness in digital form? Only that this would not in my estimation be me.

I don't vote on debates but I agree with the outcome.

Then you are in violation of Peter 3:15. Not only are you not willing to give me the reason for the hope in your heart but you are not displaying meekness and fear. Ehat would your hypothetical god(s) say?

If considering one of the seven the original is arbitrary is it not also arbitrary to consider just one the original also arbitrary? And that I think is what you really want to discuss.

Doesn't reality exist? If so then that is clearly not the difference. Please try again.

That covers a lot of ground Keith including which of the seven secularmerlin is the real secularmerlin.

What is the difference between reality and the ultimate reality?

That is not the anly claim you have made about reality. You also claimed that it is eternal. Are you now retracting that claim?

Sorry I'm not purposely tryingvto evade what issue are you trying to debate?

Ah but it could be how a normal transporter works of it were programmed that way. And assuming it has been programmed to create six identical versions of each passenger how do we go about sorting out which "You" is the you from before transport?

Ok but now there are six secularmerlins. Is each not a functional individual?

What do you mean? What prophecy? And which ever prophecy surely the burden of proof goes to the one claiming there is a prophecy rather than the one who simply sees no reason to accept that there is such a thing as prophecy until proof can be provided.

What makes the operations of a working computer meaningful? It is probable that they are without meaning to the computer which presumably does not make value judgements. The ships replicators can make nearly any object from raw energy. It can also break matter down into raw energy as shown when dirty dishes are simply dematerialized. It is not transporting any object it is just making a new one from scratch or destroying one. The visual effect is earily similar to the transporter. I posit to you that the two technologies are linked. One could clone a human thousands of times. Then which one is secularmerlin? We all believe we are. We all have identical memories up to the point of transporting.

You have made claims that exceed the admission that reality exists and also that exceed human epistemology. You always say that denying your claims is like denying reality exists but that is not strictly speaking true of all your claims, not in the truest sense.

If all you were claiming was that reality exists my response is yeah probably. With the addition of other claims my response changes.

Is that not an accurate description of normal brain function? How often is no  occasional? What makes a synapse firing not random?

If self is merely the pattern of neural activity then only the brain is necessary for self. Is a brain in a jar an individual? Should it be afforded human rights?

I'm not sure what constitutes self so I have no reason to accept this.

Then we can make literally no claims about it without committing a logical fallacy.

If that is more than observable reality then it is unobservable by definition. If it is unobservable it is unknown by definition. If it is unknown any claims made abput it are necessarily arguments from ignorance. So I ask you Is there a difference between reality and the ultimate reality?