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@Mopac
They do not. But they do define a ball as a spherical objectvwhich is red though it may appear to be another color. Perhaps the problem is that you do not understand what a ball is. If you would just accept their definition it would clear up this whole misunderstanding.
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@Mopac
What if they define a ball as a spherical object which is red although it may appear to be another color?
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Purple
As before both have total faith in their position and both claim that the ball is their preferred color not purple. Do you reject both their claims?
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And if a second stranger makes an equal claim that the ball is blue whom do you believe?
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You are oftentimes a liar
I have never knowingly lied to you. I have no reason to. This however is a hypothetical situation and it seems you are fixating on me and missing the point. Let us start again but this time it is a complete stranger claiming the ball is red. Do you believe this person?
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@keithprosser @castin
As I have never known you to make a red ball statement unless you have further questions I will assume you take my point and more or less agree. You are both of course always welcome on any of my threads but barring any questions or comments I believe that we have explored this topic to its natural conclusion and I shall concentrate on those who are still on there way.
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@ArgentTongue
I'm sure it is not a new idea. There are very few of those.
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@ArgentTongue
What is the goal of the logic puzzle?
To determine if rejecting a claim requires a burden of proof.
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@Castin
I will not open the box but I assure you that I have the highest order of faith in the redness of the ball.
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@Mopac
You are skipping ahead. At first it is only me and my box and my ball which I have never seen and which I insist is red. You can't prove its not red. Do you believe that it is red.
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@DebateArt.com
No by all means I'm not sure how to fix it myself once the topic is created.
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What I know of you thus far and of the friends you have who disagree with you on such things leads me to trust you more than them so I'd bet on red.
I appreciate your vote of confidence. In fact I find that I am touched in spite of myself. I am somewhat confused however as you have expressed more than once your concerns with my ability to recognize truth.
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Neither of us will accept that the ball is purple arguing instead that it is the colors we claimed. We both seem equally sure and both have equal evidence to present. We cannot both be right so whom do you believe?
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If the ball is purple then both my friend and I are both wrong but there is no way for you to be certain that it is purple in any case. You may ask us anything that you like but our answers always amount to "I know what color the ball is and you can't prove it isn't that color" red for my claim and blue for my friend. Before you ask we both claim the ball is one solid color and if the ball is half red and half blue (or any combination of the two) then we are both wrong. Nevertheless we both believe that we are correct. As certain as we are that the sun will rise tomorrow.
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At the point where I claim the ball is red and my friend claims it is blue and with the understanding that we both believe with a conviction of faith that we are correct even though we both cannot be whom do you believe and why?
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I'm not sure if I understand you. You seem to be claiming that it would both change your answer and not change ypur answer. Which is it?
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Would it change your answer if I have a friend who claims the ball is blue with equal belief and fervor?
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@Buddamoose
The 100 gold represents mire than the silver but also the time and expertise of crafting. How.much of it is actually silver? Of course you are correct that it could be used for holy water.
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How do I know you're not lying to the degree of certainty you suggest me to in said scenario?
You don't have any way of knowing but I have given no indication that I am being duplicitous. If it helps you determine your answer however let us assume for arguments sake that I am not lying and that I believe wholeheartedly that the ball is red.
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@ArgentTongue
In this hypothetical if you have no reason to think so. I have merely asserted that the ball is red and that you cannot prove otherwise.
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In this hypothetical situation You don't have any particular reason to think either of those things. If that were a part of the hypothetical I would have mentioned it. But for the sake of argument let us say that I am not lying I believe wholeheartedly and with a conviction of faith that the ball is red. I just haven't actually looked in the box and I haven't seen the ball.
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@keithprosser
Indeed, that iss the difference between discussing history versus discussing fiction.
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Your right. I concede that point to you. I still don't see any thing about the fictional source material (the bible) which indicates your claim. Perhaps you could go over it again?
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Imagine if you will that I have in my possession a box which I have not opened. Now imagine there is a ball in this box. This ball may be any color but I have claimed that the ball is red. Now since I have not seen the ball you may well wonder how I know this and you may well ask me "how do you know the ball is red?"
Let us further imagine that rather than opening the box and proving what color it is once and for all I reply "You can't prove that it isn't red".
Now you can't actually prove that the ball is not red. Should you simply accept my word?
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Actually it looks like you just baldly asserted that it was the case. You have not in fact demonstrated that any of.these mythological figures exists at all let alone that some of them may be confused with one another.
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It isn't actually our job to refute it is your job to prove. You are committing a shifting of the burden of proof fallacy.none can refute
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@PGA2.0
all have about the same level of evidence
They do, specifically anecdotal testimony. If evidence beyond anecdotal exists for any of these propositions kindly provide it and I will gladly retract this statement
saying god did it you may as well say magic.
Unless you can demonstrate the existence of.any gods this is true as any undeminstrable claim can and should be dismissed.
the bible is not evidence
The bible is not evidence in and of itself. It would need to be demonstrated that anything in the bible were true and it would take actual evidence beyond anecdotal to provide such a demonstrotion.
Don't bother talking about you biblical horoscopes
This is not a claim it is an advisement on what sorts of claims will and will not convince me of your position althoughno claim will conv8nce me without evidence.
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@YeshuaBought
Allow me to ask a question which perhaps has more utility. Do the opinions of early christians (provided we can even determine them) help us determine if Jesus was a god or that any god(s) exist or even that Jesus was an actual historical figure rather than a fictional one?
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@PGA2.0
I don't believe in magic, gods, flying spaghetti monsters either. Nor do I substitute something so ridiculous as magic for God.
Fine allow me to restate my post in a way that you will understand. Honestly it's no more than I told.you to do.
I don't have the answers to any of these questions but that doesn't mean that your god is the answer.
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@PGA2.0
I have not made any claim I merely do not accept yours.When you make a claim, it is up to you to supply your burden of proof
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@Buddamoose
(Eikka has a bag of powdered silver before you get two crazy trading in our coins)
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@buddamoose @thedredpriateroberts @kindertina @earth
There doesn't seem any way around it. If we want silver weapons we are going to have to take the time to get them done. That means we won't have them in time for the festival tomorrow.
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@drafterman
Eikka doesn't need much that she doesn't already have so far as I know. I guess we try to supply the fighters and let Luraxt copy a few spells and then on to the next book. Killing vampires was It? Is Luraxt still unaffected by the sun in this valley? If so I see no reason to think that it will be much help against vampires either.
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@PGA2.0
Then it is up to you to show I am also ill-informed and ignorant
Actually this is not how it works. That we are all ignorant and ill-informed is the default position until proven otherwise. Claims of special knowledge will be dismissed.
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@PGA2.0
Magic, god(s), ghosts, the flying spaghetti monster and pandimensional beings all have about the same level of evidence and saying god did it you may as well say magic. You may substitute god(s) for magic in my previous post if it helps you understand my meaning better.
Failure to admit your ignorance does not make it go away. If you have evidence other than anecdotal please present it but allow me to be perfectly clear the bible is not evidence it is the claim. Without some sufficient evidence (objective physical evidence would be nice and anecdotal testimony is not sufficient) I reject the claim the bible represents. Logic without evidence or logic based on incorrect can lead to incorrect conclusions so logic while a necessary component is useless without evidence. Don't bother talking about you biblical horoscopes either those are profoundly unimpressive.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If you have gold you can probably buy them.
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@drafterman
Unless they let me cast identify on the potions before we take them I gotta go with gold.
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@PGA2.0
Saying that I don't know and refraining from making any claim in the absence of sufficient evidence is not avoidance it is honesty.This is the ploy of many atheists - avoidance
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@PGA2.0
I don't have the answers to any of these questions but that doesn't mean that magic is the answer.
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@PGA2.0
I have not claimed that the universe came about by chance or happenstance or even said that I believe in those things. That the universe must be either created or have come about by chance is a black and white fallacy.
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@PGA2.0
Do you know of anything that has a beginning that does not have a cause?
This is a classic black swan fallacy.you can only claim there are no black swans until someone observes a black swan.
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@PGA2.0
Unless prophecy is too specific to be interpreted and has a narrow time frame it may as well be astrogy. The prophecy in the bible either is both fortold and fulfilled in the same book or is interoperable and of an open ended time frame.
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@PGA2.0
You have gone beyond claiming that the universe had a cause and on to claiming it was a specific cause. Can you demonstrate this specific cause or is this a false dichotomy?
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@PGA2.0
You have also claimed that nothing can begin to exist without a cause can you demonstrate this or is it impossible to prove a negative?
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@PGA2.0
You have made the claim that something exists which did not begin to exist. Can you demonstrate this or is it a bald assertion?
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@PGA2.0
When you assert that your claim is true simply because the answer is not known that is by definition an argument from ignorance. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the more common logical fallacies before debating. Until we can clear up this issue we may not be able to have a rational discussion. Again the burden of proof is on the claimant even if his opponent does not have an alternative claim to offer.
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@Shed12
If we can agree on a standard or a stated goal we can make objective statements about morality and justice. Without such a standard we cannot even discuss the concepts. My preferred standard is human wellbeing followed by wellbeing in general. This is a subjective standard to apply to morality but harm and wellbeing can be objectively noted (In a purely physical sense if in no other). We can use that standard or another one of your choice but any standard would be only our opinion.
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@PGA2.0
That is an argument from ignorance. If I do not know where the universe came from that does not automatically make you right you still need to demonstrate your claim. I don't need to know where the universe came from in order to reject your claim for lack of evidence.
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@Mopac
That god did not begin to exist is not a conclusion of the argument as Keith said. It is an assumption madevatbthe outset of the argument so that the argument goes through. Unless you can demonstrate that anything that exists did not begin to exist it is a case of special pleading.everything that began to exist has a cause.
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