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@Mopac
What is money?What has intrinsic value at all?It was said that things that help us survive have intrinsic value. Isn't this a created. standard of value? Does that mean everything is valuable to Macgyver? How does money not help us survive.
So we agree that money is intrinsically worthless. You owe me ten money.
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@keithprosser
Good you can make your check payable to SecularMerlin in care of dart.comI am not disputing that money has no intrinsic value
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@RationalMadman
Even if they are useful artificial constructs they are still artificial constructs. Whether credit can be an indicator it still has an arbitrarily assigned value as does money.
Now stop trying to welsh you owe me ten money.
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@Goldtop
I have proved a positive, that I have free will.
Actually all you've done is make the bald assertion that you possess freewill.
That is your own assumption and not a conclusion of the experiments.
it doesn't matter. Cause and effect are a perfectly good explanation of any natural phenomenon unless evidence is provided that more is at work. Isn't that part of why you don't believe that god(s) created the universe?
Do you freely and willfully reject my claim?
No I do not do so freely. In fact I have no choice as I am unable to maintain a belief in the absence of evidence.
Did you do so out of ignorance?
Yes I did. You see some things are beyond our epistemological limits and if we cannot say for certain that a claim is true the reasonable recourse is to reject that claim until more information can be provided.
You've provided absolutely nothing that shows free will doesn't exist.
Are you suggesting it is possible to prove a negative? If that is the case then please prove that no god(s) exist and I will attempt to use your method. Or we could agree that a claim which has not been demonstrated should logically be dismissed.
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@3RU7AL
If your definition of what is real is what you perceive then yes but if your definition is whatever qaulia exist regardless of our ability to confirm said qualia then we just cannot be certain.
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@Goldtop
It is impossible to prove a negative and even if neuroscientists discover the exact mechanics by which humans come to conclusions and determine actions there still might be some mystical component, some undetectable "soul" which possesses freewill.
That being said however what neuroscience has discovered would seem to suggest that our "choices" are not made consciously at all and that our subconscious "knows" what we will do before we are consciously aware of it. See the universe, including human behavior, is perfectly explainable by cause and effect. Freewill is unnecessary to this explanation so if you claim freewill exists and I reject your claim based on a lack of evidence then supplying that evidence falls to you, the one making the claim.
I have given an argument for how the universe could work without freewill and your only objection so far as I can tell is that you feel like you are making choices. So tell me how would actual freewill differ from the illusion of freewill from a practical standpoint from our perspective? If our "choices" are just a post hoc justification for our actions after the fact how would we ever know the difference?
I am not asking for anything you do not regularly ask theists for. Evidence to support your beliefs.
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@3RU7AL
Providing our perceptions reflect reality.I believe it is safe enough to say that what is "real" is quantifiable by corroborated scientific observation.
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@3RU7AL
An interesting video. I had a similar experience when I was young and the crazy lady my mom invited to live with us for a while was beating me with a spoon and again shortly after while meditating on a playground. Unfortunately the experience is subjective and unobservable to others. I accept that I may not exist and also that I may have been hallucinating and in any case I no longer consider the experience spiritual even if it was a manifestation of reality.
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@keithprosser
But something "worth" 37 dollars today could be worth twenty tomorrow or even just at a different shop so money clearly isn't a measure of value like centigrade is a measure of temperature.
So yeah ten money please.
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@eash
Citations needed.
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@Outplayz
My whole thing is based on not being in control of the things that we tend to use to make determinations about our behavior (Preferences and outside factors) not being under our control but it's true that if there is physical evidence of freewill in the brain itself neurologists haven't found it and what they have found may actually be evidence that there isn't any freewill. Probably too early to be sure but when I come across someone who can't even consider the idea that we might not I really get this weird feeling that they really have no freewill.
Not you. You at least are considering the idea, but some people seem preprogrammed to be unable to accept or handle the idea.
I really don't believe in freewill though for my part.
Did you know that five year olds consistently choose the political candidate that will win. It's true something like an average of seventy five percent of the five year olds will pick the winning candidate just looking at pictures, which is funny because that's like the average percentage of votes winning candidates tend to get.
What does that say about freewill?
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@Buddamoose
(Oh you suck, this whole time I thought you were getting brief moments of relief from my stench.)
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@Buddamoose
Your tricks can be amusing but if you want this to work you need to let me fix this. begins slathering the grease on Ireenas armor. I'll get to you in a moment Ismark.
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@Buddamoose
(That spell only lasts like a minute at a time. At most you get a few moments of relief at a time. You can't keep up with the powerful smell of Eikka.)
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@Greyparrot
I am somewhat curious but that's a lot of documents and I was rather hoping you could tell me what exactly you found that impresses you with Mr Cavanaugh or even just a place to start. Of course as I have already said these documents may have the opposite effect on me.
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@Porkloin
So either some things have intrinsic value in that we can use them to help us survive but I am right about money being without intrinsic value or nothing has value including money in which case I am correct that money has no value.
Either way you owe me ten money.
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@Buddamoose
Snerp these disguises are terrible. They don't even smell like orcs. I reach for my armor grease. I can fix that though.
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@Outplayz
Oh I don't know for certain whether or not we posses freewill I just see no evidence for or against it and I am unable to maintain a belief in the absence of evidence. I will say that I don't think you decided to like eggplant. That your preferences have changed doesn't mean you meant to change them. I had a really good laugh about the slapping kids around thing though. Mostly because you seem way to nice to be smacking anyone around.
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@Goldtop
Ok goldtop if you say so. Its not as though you are free to consider my arguments, your defiance is dictated by cause and effect that niether of us can change.
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@Greyparrot
Have you reviewed all 60000+ documents? Was there something specific you wanted to draw my attention to?
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@Goldtop
How often do you deny your desires for no reason?
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@Greyparrot
I thought you had a link to provide I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
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@Greyparrot
I can't do that until you provide the link. And again if he does understand how hearings and trials are supposed to work then his behavior is all the more alarming and his rulings may have the opposite effect from the one you intend.
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@Greyparrot
I'd be happy to take a look but I'm not sure what they have to do with his confusion over the difference between a person denying an event had happened and denying any memory of an event as well as his misquoting of persons not present to testify. In fact if he actually does understand juresprudence then his behavior is all the more alarming
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@eash
This seems the sort of advice that leads to unwanted pregnancy. Maybe instead of practicing mysticism if you want to avoid conceiving then you should practice safe sec which has the added bonus of protectingbypu from sexually transmitted infections.
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@Goldtop
So you don't prefer bourbon?
For your convenience the definition of preference as it is being used in this context is a greater liking for one alternative over another or others and in this hypothetical scenario you have no particular reason not to have the bourbon (All things being equal).
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@Goldtop
A but all things being equal when presented with all three drinks you reach for the burben?
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@Greyparrot
I don't recall using the word temperment. I did say that Cavanaugh doesn't seem to understand simple juresprudence and that he did not show a quality of character that I feel we should expect from a supreme court judge but niether of those things has anything to do with his temperment or political correctness.
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@Goldtop
So in general your choice would go bourbon then coffee then tea?
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@Goldtop
Do you have a preference for coffee?
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@Greyparrot
What does political correctness have to do with my argument? Do try to keep up.
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@RationalMadman
You still haven't demonstrated intrinsic value in currency rather than an ascribed value decided upon by society at large. The thing about currency is that you can't make a tool out of it or eat it or screw it and make little people. Paper currency could at least be burned for warmth but paper money is a relatively new thing and you would be much better off with coal or wood or even bones if you are trying to stay warm.
So yes ten money please.
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@drafterman
Horses are sprinters not distance runners an orc can run a horse down. Of course since your only human...
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@RationalMadman
I never said there was no money I said it was an abstract concept without intrinsic value of its own.
You can make your check payable to SecularMerlin in care of debateart.com.
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@Goldtop
Can you demonstrate the ability to do other than what you actually end up doing? I'm not sure how else we could demonstrate freewill adequately.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
When someone's back is to the wall they show you who they really are and I do not believe that Cavanaugh showed us a supreme court justice. He did provide us with ample material for jokes about being "sober as a judge" but I don't feel that was really a good trade.
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@RationalMadman
I did not say that it wasn't a useful made up concept. If it did not facilitate human interaction it would be an occasional curiosity rather than an all pervasive fact of modern living. That doesn't change the fact that money itself is intrinsically worthless and only has the worth we ascribe to it.
Also you owe me ten money.
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@Goldtop
I would assume that your actions are based on a mixture of your preferences (which you have no control over) and outside factors (which you have no control over). I suppose you could be doimg things for litteraly no reason but that constitutes a random event and random events are no more indicative of freewill than events that are subject to cause and effect.
That you have a will does not mean it is free.
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@Greyparrot
In short this shouldn't be a left/right issue it should be an American issue and America deserves better than a man who thinks it is alright to answer a question at an official government hearing (whether the hearing itself was a good idea or not) with another question rather than the whole and literal truth to the best of his memory.
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@Greyparrot
I will agree that having a hearing rather than a trial was probably a mistake. Cavanaugh was tried in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law and that isn't how things should be done according to the constitution of these United States. As I said his guilt or innocence becomes immaterial at a certain point. My objection to his appointment is not tied up in his guilt or innocence (which was not legally established as There was no trial) it has to do with his conduct during the hearing itself.
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@Greyparrot
As I said it hardly matters if he is guilty or inoscent or who is the victim if the man cannot understand simple principles of jurisprudence. He isn't qualified to be a judge let alone a judge on for the highest court in the nation.
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@Greyparrot
At a certain point it doesn't matter if Cavanaugh wad guilty his unprofessional behavior during the hearing itself should have disqualified him. A supreme court justice should really know the difference between the denial of an event and the denial of any memory of the event. Also he was very distespectful to the prosecuted which while not illegal in and of itself does not speak highly of character.
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@eash
There are actually 613 commandments in the old testament. In fact the ten commandments that are most popularly quoted are the commandments spoken by Moses. The commandments on the stone tablets Moses brought down later from mount Sinai are different (one is not to seethe a kid in it's mothers milk) and yet the ones most often shown in modern sculpture depicting said tablets are the spoken commands.
None of that matters however since even if the original texts unchanged and perfectly translated were available to us they would still only constitute a claim (or rather a series of claims) not proof of any claim.
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@eash
This does not change the fundamental problem with your arguments, which is that the bible (whether the original text has been altered or not) is a claim not proof of any claim.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
People claiming to be inoscent because they like beer.
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@Buddamoose
(All this time I though Roberts was just hanging out with us because he had the hots for Eikka, or possibly Snerp, different strokes for different folks after all.)
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@PGA2.0
If there is no necessary being then life originated from something non-living, something without consciousness. Show me how that is possible.
I don't know how or why life originated but that doesn't mean we accept an unproven and unprovable proposition. That would be an argument from ignorance, that is saying I can't think of another explanation therefore this is true. If the answer is I don't know then you don't have the answer you don't get to just make one up.
Why would you expect to find reason, logic, meaning in a meaningless universe?
Can you demonstrate that the universe has any meaning besides that which we assign to it? As for logic and reason these are just methods of thought which have been shown to have results and only because the universe tends to behave in an observably predictable way. That does not necessitate a guiding force. Gravity would still pull mass towards mass whether it is directed by a conciousness or if it is just an emergent quality of mass. That gravity exists therefore does not demonstrate a concious guiding force. This is true of existence of the universe in general. The universe does exist but that in and of itself is not evidence that ideas created rather than simply existing.
Some things can be thought of in theory, yet they are not possible to demonstrate in practice.
I agree with This one hundred percent. Some things are impossible to demonstrate. In such cases it is beyond our epistemological limits to say with certainty that they are true or false.
without fixing it in any way one million times in a row.
The chances of rolling six one million times in a row is astronomical but really so are the chances of rolling any specific combination of numbers. Regardless of what numbers come up on your dice the chances of that specific combination are still six million to one against and yet if you roll a dice six million times you will get a specific combination of numbers.
How can you know certainty without a necessary all-knowing being?
Complete certainty about anything would seem to be beyond humans. Our experience is just too limited and subjective.
What is the truth? Do you have it in regards to origins?
Nope and niether do you, or at least you seem unable to demonstrate this truth.
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@Goldtop
Your mind is not subject to outside stimuli? You do not base your conclusions and behavior on past experience? What do you base these things on then?
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@drafterman
(Seems like Buddamoose is right to me. Eikka might argue a little more but we can take that as read.)
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