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@EtrnlVw
Unless I am much mistaken you and he have very different beliefs and my conversation with you has nothing to do with my conversation with him.
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@EtrnlVw
I'm not actually sure I addressed any message to you including the word vague. Are you certain the post you are referencing was not a response to an entirely different member? As for your other longer post I'll try to get back to you unfortunately I've been a little busy.
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@ethang5
There is a lot to unpack there. I'm not even sure where to start.
I gather from this statement that you believe in Stan as a concious independent entity not just some vague force or negative reflection of human iniquity?
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@EtrnlVw
I've thought about it and what I think I mean to ask is this. Is there any position that cannot be held on faith?
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@EtrnlVw
Reject outright isn't quite right either. Give me awhile to get back to you.
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@drafterman
You have me as male. The character is female. Also the army I belonged to was wiped out so my rank is probably meaningless. Other than that everything seems in order.
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Sorry to flip like that. Answered without thinking and then reflected on my actual character concept and posted an update.
Just to be clear
Eikka of the bloodknob clan
Female half orc
Cleric of Zud the indecisive.
Str10
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 15
Chr 12
Skills: medicine, insight, athletics, intimidation, land vehicles, gaming (an orcish game called cups played with the hands as game tokens... most orcs aren't very bright), nature religion and perception.
Languages: common, orc, giant and primordial.
Background soldier
I was the military chaplain for an orcish army. We worked with goblins whom I expected to learn orcish and giants whose language I learned. Big difference between goblins and giants. My clan was largely wiped out by another orc tribe. I mean what's the point of it all right? If we just wipe each other out?
So I decided what the heck I'll try to learn more about my mother's folk. My god isn't evil though he is kind of apathetic so working with humans isn't a problem so long as I go about it in singleminded determination. I'm not really evil either though I may not have human goals and beliefs.
My scale mail is rubbed black in suite mixed with grease. This keeps reflection to be minimum and prevents rust. It also stinks. I am smelly until my team mates can explain the situation to me at least.
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@EtrnlVw
Yes decide is really the wrong word. I've been trying to think of another and I've decided to come at the problem from another way.
Are there any claims you reject outright? Scientology, flat earth etc.?
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Skills: nature, religion, and perception
Languages: giant and primordial
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@drafterman
Nature, religion and stealth skills
Elvin and drawvish
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@EtrnlVw
It would help if virtually every claim about the supernatural wasn't different from virtually every other.
Let's use me as an example. I once believed that I could communicate with trees. Do you believe I was communicating with trees or that I was talking to my self and projecting onto trees?
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@EtrnlVw
If these nonphysical forces/objects can only be observed through internalized practices how do you independently verify that it is a part of our shared reality?
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@EtrnlVw
The idea of a nonphysical thing is what seems incoherent to me. What is a nonphysical thing? Even electromagnetism is a measurable part of the physical universe.
More importantly how do we detect a nonphysical thing?
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@EtrnlVw
Body mind and emotions sure but I have yet to have a coherent definition of soul/spirit.
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the negative side of polarity gains traction through creation, through perceptions and desires which manifests itself through beings.
Do you believe this manifestation to have independent agency?
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@EtrnlVw
That along with promoting wellbeing is actually my subjective standard of choice with the wellbeing of humans first followed by wellbeing in general.
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@drafterman
I think in the end I will go with knowledge.
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@drafterman
What did you have in mind?
Cleric of Zud the indecisive. He takes my indecision onto himself that I may act decisively.
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@ethang5
Now that you mention it I'm not sure what my endgame is here except that I like it when my beliefs are challenged and even more when they are changed by an argument. It happens from time to time in a debate when I am wrong and someone helps me to understand it. I wonder whatever happened to furrion5. He convinced me that we do not see light or indeed really see anything other than pictures manufactured in our brains.
Did you ever debate that guy?
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@ethang5
Is it so hard to believe that I am interested in your ideas and opinions while simultaneously disagreeing with You? As for my "claims" I was incautious with my words and over stepped my epistemological limits. When you pointed this out I amended my statement and therefore the question. I am willing to do so again if my question still doesn't seem to track.
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@drafterman
Background soldier. I was a military chaplain.
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@ethang5
This isn't a competition it is a discussion and if we don't explore each other's ideas effectively we both lose.
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@EtrnlVw
Negative and positive in the context you are using them in are subjective terms. What seems like a negative to you may seem like a positive to me. What standard are we using to determine one from the pther?
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@EtrnlVw
Well my needs are simple you need only demonstrate the physical reality of your claims. If that is impossible then I have no choice but to remain skeptical.
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@drafterman
Choices:Proficiency in two skills from: history, insight, medicine, persuasion, religionEquipment: mace or warhammer (if proficient); scale mail, leather armor, or chain mail (if proficient); light crossbow or any simple weapon; priest's pack or explorer's packThree Cleric cantripsDivine Domain
Proficiency: insight, medicine
Equipment: mace, scale mail, crossbow, priest's pack
Cantrips: guidance, mending, resistance
Devine domain: none seems quite right for what I have in mind. I guess knowledge will do.
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@EtrnlVw
May not be physically "demonstrated" to you in a physical form of evidence but certainlyobserved nonetheless.
Well that is really the rub isn't it. The thing is that something that cannot be demonstrated makes for a poor debate argument.
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@Castin
In either case one must assume the existence of some being(s) which cannot be physically demonstrated. In one case (polytheism) one must assume more than one being which is another layer of assumption in the other (monotheism) one must generally assume a far more powerful (and therefore more implausible) being which is another layer of assumption. I'm not sure I would say either is necessarily a step forward, more to the side like.
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@ethang5
Would you like me to rephrase again? The lightbulb is unimportant as it is just a placeholder for any observable physical effect.
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@ethang5
I did rephrase at least once, at your request.
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@ethang5
If winning is important to you you may tell anyone you like that you won. I'd still like an answer however if you wouldn't mind. Often I am given an "answer" that does not actually address my question and in that circumstance yes it leads to the same question reformed.
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@ethang5
I asked a question. That is quite different from making a claim. In fact when you pointed out that I had overreacted my epistemological limits I was happy enough to adjust that question in order to remedy the problem. Would you like me to rephrase again?
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Female half orc cleric.
Str 8 (10)
Dex 10
Con 14 (15)
Int 13
Wis 15
Chr 12
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@Buddamoose
I accounted for my racial adjustments should I not have? I always played 2nd ed.
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@Buddamoose
Human fighter
Half elf wizard
Gnome bard*
Half orc cleric
*pending dm approval
Seems like a good mix over all
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Female half orc cleric.
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 15
Chr 12
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@drafterman
Oh... I rolled actual dice. I'll adjust my character accordingly.
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@drafterman
Wait do we get to choose where our stats go? Was leaving mine in order of roll?
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@drafterman
Half Orc cleric of Zud the indecisive god of making small descisions with certainty (myth has it that he takes on his followers indecision for them so that they can act with determination). A minor god to be sure. Female
Str 9
Dex 12
Con 8
Int 14
Wis 16
Chr 17
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@drafterman
Seems like we need a healer halforc cleric.
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@ethang5
Arguments may require rebuttals but questions do not. Questions beg answers.My rebuttals are based on what argument you present.
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@Polytheist-Witch
How would you be at fault for any of my experiences? As for self doubt we'll it isn't so much myself I doubt.
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@drafterman
Str 9
Dex 12
Con 8
Int 14
Wis 16
Chr 17
Hmm not the most physically robust character I've ever rolled.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I used to habe experiences that I called spiritual. It is not an unwillingness to have such an experience on my part it is the fact that I have no evidence to support the idea that these "spiritual" experiences were genuine.
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@ethang5
As always you are under no special obligation to respond but if you would like clarification in order to facilitate our discussion you have but to ask. In the meantime you have not demonstrated your claims but thank you for your participation.
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@ethang5
The original op is about the observable effect god(s) have on our perceived reality. That is still my question. I am willing to rephrase and refine the question until it makes sense to you.
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