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@Smithereens
I'm not sure what you are asking.
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@Smithereens
When I asked wjat our goal was in this situation you left that up to me. As I said the only sensible goal would be to minimize future murders. I prescribed nearly identical punishments for.both individuals along with social reform regarding devorce. It doesn't so much matter why the crime was committed only how dangerous the defendants are likely to be in the future. Assessing their probable mot8ves is just one way of determining this risk factor.
If the goal were upholding the laws of some nation or other you had ample opportunity to say so, in fact I asked you clearly.
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@Buddamoose
The point is not the heinous nature of the crime as that is a subjective judgement. The point is to protect public safety and choosing the least harsh penalty that would insure it.
As for motives that I am unaware of it may change my judgement about the situation as would a history of violence or a reliable method of rehabilitation. These were however not mentioned in the original hypothetical.
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@Buddamoose
The only sensible goal I can see would be minimizing the chances of the crime from being repeated. This would promote public health and safety. So let's look at the motives being displayed here.
Person 1 is unhappy in his marriage and decides to hire someone to kill their spouse. Two courses of action present themselves here. One is to either imprison person 1 until they reach advanced enough years that they are unlikely to remarry or remove them permanently from society. Two is to make divorce easier to obtain and carry no stigma so that no one feels so trapped as to kill their spouse rather than simply leave them. Both courses of action are worth persuing.
Person 3 on the other hand has agreed to commit homicide for financial gain. The actual motive for the murder is less important to him than the personal gain he seeks and so we must remove him permanently from society.
This of course is assuming that rehabilitation is unlikely to be effective.
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@EtrnlVw
It would appear that what is and is not a herbivore is not quite so cut and dry as we seem to think. Even "vegetarian" animals don't turn their nose up at the occasional meaty snack.
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@Buddamoose
What is our goal in this situation? Punishing the guilty? Protecting public safety? Teaching a lesson? Upholding justice?
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@YeshuaBought
I have not made a positive claim. Are you making a claim which we can debate?
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Perhaps the computers are taking over!
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@TwoMan
What part of the universe is being destroyed? There is no reason to think that any of the stuff that exists in the universe today will not still exist, in one form or another, after this projected heat death.
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@YeshuaBought
I see no reason to believe that, if Jesus was an historical figure at all, he was a god.
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@Stephen
Ok thank you for sharing what you believe and why.
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@RationalMadman
The part of immortality that was enjoyable and rewarding would certainly be finite. The part where you are trapped or lost or floating through deep space forever alone and going mad would be.
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would also depend on what one would accept as geological or archeological evidence
Do you have something that you feel qualifies as evidence to present?
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@RationalMadman
I don't believe in luck. In any case everybody has a plan till they get knocked down.
I think you are mistaking me though. I'm not just being a Debbie downer here. Life is precious and rewarding and enjoyable precisely because it is finite.
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@Castin
Actually I think that many religions believe you leave your body behind because there is clearly a body when somebody dies but eternal life is a big selling point for many religions. One way to resolve this is to claim that the person just left their body behind but that the person lives on. If that is what happens, and I have no reason to believe that it is, then I am unconvinced that whatever leaves your body would still qualify as you.
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@Stephen
How did these gods accomplish this exodus without leaving any geological or archeological evidence?
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@RationalMadman
You do understand that any odds are virtually assured if your time frame is infinite?
If you stand out in one thunder storm your statistical odds of being struck by lightning are reasonably low. If you had been standing out in every thunder storm that had ever happened then you almost certainly would have been struck by lightning many many times.
This is sort of what immortality would be like. Disasters that you don't expect and are completely unprepared for would not only happen but probably happen over and over.
Also as I said eventually the sun will burn out and then I'm not sure what your plan is.
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@RationalMadman
Well my whole point is that if you live forever you are virtually assured of hitting those odds eventually. Even if we assume that a war or natural disaster doesn't leave you trapped the earth isn't going to last forever. Once our sun burns out what then?
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@RationalMadman
So you can reduce the chances to like one in a million?
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@AngelofDeath
what would be the terms of immortality then?
That is just the point. We don't know and don't get to decide. If immortality happened to someone it might just be an accident. They might not even know that they are immortal at first.
If you are just fantasizing about being immortal than by all means define your terms accordingly. If however you are considering a hypothetical situation in which something is possible that we have not observed in the universe (such as immortality) and we want to be as realistic as the subject permits there are a few things we will have to admit.
One of those things is that we rarely choose our circumstances.
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@AngelofDeath
Fair enough, immortality is just fantasy. If you were immortal however I'm pretty sure it would be a nightmare.
Would you still want it if you could not choose the terms of your immortality?
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@AngelofDeath
As I said to another poster it's fine to enjoy your fantasy. I'm just pointing out that the reality of immortality would be unlikely to be as fun and rewarding as your fantasy paints it.
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@Castin
If that's not what he is saying then I have misunderstood quite egregiously.
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@AngelofDeath
If we could choose the terms of our own immortality.
We don't choose the terms of our own mortality so I don't see why you would be able to choose the terms of your own immortality.
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@janesix
New evidence could come to light or we could find that our math is incorrect but for current cosmological model projects the heat death of the universe.
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@Stephen
If I reformulate a question because I do not understand your answer and you give me exactly the same response then I am not the one who has stymied the conversation. That being said I understand that you like believing as you do regardless of any evidence for or against your hypothesis so perhaps we could move on.
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SecularMerlin
So you would like to believe in ancient aliens/gods. Do you have any objective reason to believe that or do you just like the idea whether it is true or not?
Stephen
Do you always repeat your questions in a restructured manner?
I think you will find the above is two sentences. One statement and one question. I'm not sure why you chose to change my period to a question mark or to break my second sentence into two separate sentences but that those two actions are what has given the appearance of repetitive questioning. That said if I am having trouble understanding someone's position I have no problem restructuring my question and asking again .
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@Stephen
How did they accomplish this exodus without leaving any geological or archeological evidence?
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@Stephen
So you would like to believe in ancient aliens/gods. Do you have any objective reason to believe that or do you just like the idea whether it is true or not?
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@RationalMadman
So just to be clear your idea of a rewarding existence is to live in a frozen wasteland with no friends or family (and if you do manage to become close to anyone you will know ahead of time that you get to watch them die) threatening everyone who does happen across your hiding place for fear that the world's governments would kidnap you and subject you to horrifying experiments in order to determine the secret of your immortality (To be fair a legitimate fear)?
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@janesix
No it is not. The universe could exist perfectly well in a state of complete ennui. In fact cosmology assures us that one day it will.
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There is a large difference in all cases between a fantasy and the reality that the fantasy is based on.
I'm not telling you not to enjoy your fantasy I'm just pointing out that the reality of immortality would be unlikely to be as fun and rewarding as your fantasy paints it to be.
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@RationalMadman
Aliens? The illuminati? Share your secret? None of those is part of the original premise which is simply living forever. Living forever does not necessitate that conspiracy theories suddenly become true or that you can keep others from dying.
To continue the poker analogy you seem to be drawing to the inside straight. You don't actually know what cards you will get.
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@RationalMadman
A fortress in one of the poles? You seem to have exchanged one potential prison for another more certain one.
Also why would you think that any tech would save you from all natural occurrences? It's the ones we aren't even thinking of that would represent the most danger. The ones niether of us realize could happen.
Hit by a comet...
Solar storm takes out all modern technology...
Nuclear war breaks out...
You mentioned poker well immortality would be like hundreds of millions of hands of poker which you are forced to play and in which you cannot fold.
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@RationalMadman
Ok let's say you do... all that stuff you just said. How exactly does that prevent an earthquake, tsunami or hurricane from knocking hundreds of tons of rubble on you?
In the end you are not the author of causality no matter how rich and powerful you think you are.
Also why would you need a medical team if you are immortal?
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@RationalMadman
I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "deserve". Does anyone deserve anything or do things just happen to us?
Things like earthquakes and storms. Things that might drop a house on us like the wicked witch of the East.
The longer you live the higher the probability that any particular type event would take place.
Here is an article about how much more likely building collapse is than previously thought.
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@RationalMadman
Are you locked in an underground bunker in this scenario?
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@Stephen
What do you mean by left the planet? Are these physical beings we are discussing?
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@ethang5
How do you determine which parts are literally true versus those which are allegorical?
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@RationalMadman
How does one overcome a sinkhole or a collapsing building?
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I'm talking about natural occurrences due to physics over which you cannot exert control. It is likely that you will be lost or trapped at some point in your long life and if you are unable to die you simply continue to be trapped indefinitely. This would not necessarily be the action of a force more sinister than gravity.
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@RationalMadman
Do you know what I mean when I say statistically speaking? In a large enough time frame even miniscule probability say a one in a million chance each year for one hundred million years has a net probability of nearly one hundred percent. That means that the odds of having something collapse on you or falling into a hole and being trapped forever unable to die would be a very real possibility. Corporeal immortality would be a nightmare.
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@Earth
How about this. Imagine if in the night God/Jesus himself comes down from Heaven to offer you a proposal. You can pick to live in any fictional universe, or Earth's past at any time, but, you must first live through 500 years in your chosen universe. You are de-aged to a 20 year old and any mental and physical ailments you might have are cured and you cannot get cancer or anything of the sort. After your 500 years are up, you age normally. Do you accept the deal, and what universe, if so?
I'm afraid I would have to decline.
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@Earth
You would get trapped under a falling building or stuck in a crevice or imprisoned in a cell and the key lost. Given enough time the probability rises to 100%
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@janesix
You may need to copy paste that link to get to the video but why take a regular fruit salad when you could do this!
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@Yassine
Do you disagree that people deny truth routinely
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