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@prefix
the topic is not "Some children do not receive financial support." but rather from whom?
Well aren't those the children under discussion? Like aren't we specifically talking about children who are not receiving proper financial support? I mean is this about the children or the parents because this really feels like the old bait and switch to me.
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@prefix
I feel like we are having a different conversation to one another.
Some nonzero number of children do not receive financial support and the parents cannot be easily identified l, considered financially responsible or both.
Do you agree or disagree with this comment?
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@prefix
Some children do not receive financial support.
Do you agree or disagree woth this comment?
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@Best.Korea
I remain more or less completely unconvinced.
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@Best.Korea
they were more surprised by that fig tree miracle than they were about Jesus feeding 5000 people.
That sounds patently ridiculous and I am unaware of that being explicitly spelled out in the text.
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@Best.Korea
So your argument is that their belief hung by a literal fig leaf? That if he had allowed that upitty tree to live we would all be bhudists now?
I'm still going to say that he could have provided the same "proof" by saving the tree and that this unnecessary harm is exactly what we are looking for case closed.
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@Best.Korea
It doesn't feel like that was necessary. In fact they seem to have already been following him. Also he could have as easily proved his point by making the tree bear fruit. In fact isn't making food like one of his things? I don't think the unnecessary "good" you are describing necessarily outweighs the harm to anyone who might want a tasty fig.
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@prefix
You asked a question. The question was if a child is not supported by their parents who ought to pay and if we agree that regardless of the sins of the father that someone or other ought to then the fairest solution is that each of us helps according to our means.
Do you see a specific problem with that answer?
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Your though process is about treating a symptom without addressing the disease.
Well we could talk about more comprehensive social reform but you did say not to make this about the poverty cycle.
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@prefix
IF the parents cannot pay AND children still need to be cared fir THEN we must all shoulder the burden.
Fair is not a factor here. You cannot be being treated mote unfairly then the children in this scenario. Do kindly get over yourself.
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@Best.Korea
I hope you work on yourself but I think we are done in this thread. I'm sorry it your shame but please don't make anyone else feel ashamed. That really would be shameful.
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@Best.Korea
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[a]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[b]”18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples[c] went out of the city.20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
Poor fig tree.
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No. Masturbation is greater shame. There is no "what makes it more shameful", as me not knowing the reason doesnt negate that it is greater shame. Masturbation is not same as breathing. The mere fact that I cannot resist it is my fault, which adds to the shame. The fact that it controls me as with a remote control, the fact that it decides my thoughts, adds to the shame of the shameful act.
There is no honor in being tortured for its own sake. Do get over yourself. You are not an angel or a demon you are just a human being. A perfectly normal primate and primates tend to masterbate. It's convenient because we have such clever grasping paws. Anyone that tells you different is trying to manipulate you.
Me. Let's say for the sake of argument that I masturbate whenever the mood takes me. I take my time and it becomes some relaxing me time. I enjoy it and I don't plan on giving the habit up. It is my private business and I keep it that way as much as I may. Now would you respect me less knowing this?You. Yes.
then I respect you just a little less and not because either of us masterbates.
Those are not tools, nor I believe in them, nor would I put myself to shame to use them and fail. And yes, I would fail if I used them.
Look I can't force you to make healthy choices but it would provide we with some piece of mind if you did. Anyway good luck with the masturbation.
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No. Just The New Testament and what it says about Jesus
Ok kewl I'll expect you to do the same
Usually, a wrong action is the one that causes more harm than good.
More harm than wellbeing? I really need you to be specific if we are going to get anything accomplished. And again one single instance of an action or moral pronouncement for posterity that fits this criteria as far as can be observed or the overall effect of the described figure upon the story's plot?
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@Best.Korea
Breathing, not so bad. Using the rest room, well yes there is some shame there. Greater shame is in masturbation. Masturbation being "normal biological function" doesnt negate that there is great shame in masturbation. I am too weak to resist masturbation. Masturbation is dishonour.
It is silly to even make this distinction. It would be silky to try to resist using the bathroom. What makes it more shameful than breathing which also involves expelling waste by the way. Masterbating is as natural as breathing.
Honour means respect. First, me respecting myself.
Let's say for the sake of argument that I masturbate whenever the mood takes me. I take my time and it becomes some relaxing me time. I enjoy it and I don't plan on giving the habit up. It is my private business and I keep it that way as much as I may. Now would you respect me less knowing this?
Doesnt change that I dont believe in therapists.
Mark Twain said that "a man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man that can't". Do you want to beat this thing or not? Don't act all apologetic before you have used the tools research has shown most effective in our collective human toolbox.
You cannot embrace shame and then feel no shame. Rather, it would just be adding more to shame.
Not the shame silly the masterbating. Try seeing it like washing yourself. I was joking about the video chat but just because you don't want to have other people watch you do something doesn't make it bad for you.
No, after masturbating for a few times a day, there is no occassion other than getting to orgasm as fast as possible.
I think some of us might actually be impressed... and perhaps a trifle jealous but depending on how old you are that could sure settle down and you might even miss these times. I still think that unless youbare having an actual compulsion which i am unequiped to identify you might profit by having a nice relaxing one every day regaless of whatever else is going on.
Bible does mention that when seed comes out, person becomes unclean.
Yeah well they also said women should wear hats. A lot of that stuff is hokum. I mean it would all appear to be hokum but a lot of it is for sure hokum.
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@YouFound_Lxam
See, our humans' brains can't really comprehend things like (outside of reality), and (infinity), and (Nothing).
Then why are you making a claim about what can or cannot exist there?
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@Best.Korea
Also and sorry to bother you with such a trifling detail but just so the goal post doesn't move any more is the question
Did Jesus do more harm than good?
Or is it
(Can you) Name One Wrong Thing That Jesus Did?
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@Best.Korea
Well, lets say in your view.Did Jesus do more harm than good?In terms of human welfare, for example.
I'm going to do you a favor and skip the discussion of historicity and just grant that we are talking about the figure presented by the Bible and that real or fictional those are what we are evaluating.
Just so I'm clear on your personal head cannon though do you consider Jesus as the same being as the Jahweh as described in the old testiment? Like did Jesus create the heavens and earth, flood the earth and act on behalf of Hebrews against Pharoah or is Jesus an entirely separate being?
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@Best.Korea
That doesnt change the fact that there is no honour in masturbation and it is my fault for not resisting it. Even if you believe in programmer, it just means I am so weak that someone can program me to masturbate. Even more dishonour.
I don't think you need to feel ashamed that you "couldn't resist" what amounts to a pretty normal biological function. You may as well be ashamed because you couldn't resist breathing or using the rest room.
As for honor that is highly subjective. I mean what if it was an event in the Olympics? You could garner honor for you and your whole country! Why I bet you could get the gold and the bronze if you know what I mean... could of been silver but stupid Lithuania.
No. I dont believe in therapists.
Let's say you find a therapist and they don't help at all... are you really any worse off? I am not qualified to give medical advice but you may find the right therapist is a big help.
Masturbating too much actually encourages a person to be introvert.
Well maybe that is only because you are ashamed of it. What if you embraced it? Made it a group activity instead. Go online find other weirdos. Maybe have a nice video chat. Maybe it will actually help you make friends.
You cant go slow when you need orgasm as fast as possible.
Ok I feel like someone should have The Talk with you and I do not feel like the right person but you can just hold your horses. Light some candles, have a nice bath, make an occasion of it. Self abuse doesn't have to literally mean abuse.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Race isn't a social construct. It is literally a physical aspect of all humans.
There is only one race. The human race. We are all exactly the same kind of animal. Some people identify with a particular culture or far more tragically are identified with someone else's idea of it but this is not only a racial phenomenon even when certain physical traits are correctly or incorrectly associated with that identity. Identities often imposed upon and reinforced by systemic cultural expectations that wre set in what was quite frankly one of the most problematic times in our history. We really ought stop us judgements made at a time when some humans were having there basic humanity questioned. Perhaps we should institute new cultural norms based on the idea that all humans share a basic humanity.
Ok, there is a difference in stating the biological fact that all men have penises, and saying," Let me see your penis."
Is this true? Is a person who has lost their penis say due to a war wound no longer a man? Does that mean that post transition trans women really are women? If I may be pedantic and combine the two groups what bathroom should a trans woman who lost her penis as a result of a war wound use?
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@Greyparrot
when you get THAT powerful, you get to define what "evil" really is in the most Orwellian way imaginable.
Well perhaps not the most Orwellian way I can imagine but certainly in the most Orwellian way the world's powerful can get away with.
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@Greyparrot
@Vegasgiants
Then apparently evil has no competition in the US.
I am not much for the term evil and even if evil is the right word I would instead say that among those in power evil has far to little competition.
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@Vegasgiants
Oh not everyone is against the proletariat and of course they will be oppressive to varying degrees. Right now the American left is much to far to the right for my tastes. It has become at best the lesser of two terrible oppressors who act as agents of corporate greed.
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@Best.Korea
Well morality is intersubjective and no one opinion can be definitive. Since we are the only two involved in our conversation the subject becomes intersubjective between the two of us. All we need is a standard we can both agree on. I think a few good goals might be human welfare, the public health, and the freedom to practice personal bodily autonomy so long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's autonomy.
What is "our" mutual goal for the purposes of this conversation?
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@Best.Korea
1. Guilt and shame
You are not a dirty person just because you are subject to biology. You are doing exactly as you are programed to. If you believe in a programmer then they have far more reason to feel ashamed than you do.
2. Too much but never enough
When is enough enough? If it is growing into a compulsive behavior then you should talk to a sex therapist. We here on the forums would be woefully inadequate to your needs. If it is not a compulsive behavior and you can change your habits then do so but only if it is truly what you want.
3. Interference with relationships
Is masterbating what is effecting your relationships or is it being introverted and perhaps dealing with other symptoms like depression? If it really is masterbating that is beginning to sound like an unhealthy compulsive behavior (which could of course take any form and it is not masterbating per se that is harmful but any compulsive unavoidable behavior that effects your ability to engage in social situations) but of course I am just some jerk on the internet and in no position to give a real diagnosis.
4. Physical risks
There is little physical risk involved with normal masterbating. Go slow, use lotion, be good to yourself.
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@Vegasgiants
Oh they do matter. They have all the money. What doesn't matter is the weird performance art they are acting out. It is entirely beside the real point and I get the feeling that really we agree on that.
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@Best.Korea
For some action to be "right" or "wrong" we must first establish a goal. There is no "wrong" way for a five year old to move a knight on a chess board because they don't know the rules they are just playing with a pretty horsey which is hard to mess up. A chess grandmaster however can absolutely move a knight "wrong" even if following the rules if he moves in a way which is counter to his ultimate goal of winning the game.
So tell me what is the goal here and whose goal is it?
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@Vegasgiants
And my point is that they both have zero chance of winning if they don't represent the interests of capital. All the posturing and cultural flame wars are only a distraction from the fact that none of them have our best interests in mind when shaping policy.
Actually our points might dovetail nicely.
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@Vegasgiants
Power has nothing to do with political affiliation and everything to do with money. If you are making a point about power then you are making a point about millionaires at the very least.
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@Vegasgiants
Almost every politician is a millionaire. Ehether democrat or republican in a class war it is literally us versus them.
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@ebuc
...."8 guys in this country have more money than 4 billion people combined, but yeah, the mom buying grocieries with food stamps is the problem"..unknownUnwed fathersIf the issue is sex, then address that issue with prevenative maintenance ex constraceptives and education etcIf issue is pregnancy than the above and pills to self-abort or doctors to do abortionsSome people need to get real i.e. drop abortion issues and keep their friggin noses out of pregnant womans bodily business, unless she gives her consent, other wise it is likened to virtual rape with their noses.
Very well stated. Stop being angry at people receiving benefits start being angry with those who do not pay their fair share into the fund.
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@prefix
A doubling of unwed births in 40 years would indicate that we are doing something wrong.
Well the alternative to paying is for children to go hungry and children ought not have to pay even if their parents refuse to. We must pick a goal. It is possible we cannot have financial justice on unwed mothers and deadbeat dads (even if we can figure out what justice would look like) and feed children. In that case which way are you saying we ought to go?
You misunderstand that I am not for cutting off aid. I am for educating and changing the behavior of a growing segment of society.
What exactly are you arguing for here? Better sex education and readily available women's reproductive health?
Because I could get behind that.
That is money that "dead beat dads" are stealing for us.
Sorry but I thought thus was about what was best for hungry children not how to best punish people for daring to have sex.
Again choose which goal is most important because sometimes you cannot have both.
The law of unintended consequences
Let's say some lazy people do not become homeless and destitute and also do not have to work as an unintended side effect of making sure no children are hungry or homeless. As long as you do not become homeless or destitute as a result may I ask what would be so bad for you about that situation?
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The question that you avoid is "who pays?".
Actually this was in one of very first posts. Perhaps we should collect a public fund maybe even codified into law. A sort of tax if you will. Perhaps since they are noble endeavors we could also use this fund to care for the elderly and support infrastructure. I think this plan has real potential so long as those who earn the most do not find legal loopholes with which to avoid paying a share that is commiserate with their larger earnings.
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The investigation and prosecution of WFP&I gives a "Strong return on investment, [and] invaluable outcomes" says security company SAS ...in "Uncovering social service fraud saves millions, reinforces public trust"
This isn't what I'm looking fir. I just want a number on how much we spend on these efforts
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@prefix
Let's save ME some time. I will give you the data, so I don't have to wait for you.
If you can provide a source that would actually be very helpful.
Your mantra should be " You did the deed, now fill the need"
We agree don't we that sometimes people have children who CANNOT afford to pay for them.
Do we also agree that these children should be cared for? Ought those children be taken care of in spite of their parents inability to do so?
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@prefix
Well here is the data you never learned about .
You did not provide the amount the government pays out to WFP&I counterbalanced against just providing benefits equally to every child care provider
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@prefix
So discuss away......
Just wanted to make sure this is the underlying topic
an ancillary problem is people having children that they cannot afford to raise.
So we agree that this happens right and also we agree that the children should still be cared for.
Considering that their parents cannot afford to do so they are out of the running as a solution to this problem. So whom do you propose pay if not the taxpayers?
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@prefix
an ancillary problem is people having children that they cannot afford to raise.
I get the feeling you want to discuss this specifically
Or at least it is alarge part of what you feel is unfair about the whole thing?
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@ebuc
Welcome
Thanks its good to be back... I think
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@prefix
unlawful sexual activity
I don't care about the law. When I say rape in this context I am talking about informed and preferably enthusiastic consent and only that.
Otherwise I guess I don't object in principle to the definition if you have that big a problem with mine.
the rapist can still be ordered to pay child support
Ok two problems.
Firstly pay child support? From prison? Or did you picture him being given a job rather than a prison sentence?
Secondly not all rapists are apprehended and therefore you are still left with the problem of who pays for those pregnancies where no one can be held directly responsible.
Isn't the actual problem that there are children who need support?
Unless... your real problem is literally that you personally may stand to pay more taxes for the good of children? May I ask if you consider your personal profit more import than the welfare of children? If so do you also consider your personal profit more important than the care of the elderly and the maintenance of infrastructure? Why or why not?
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@prefix
In this context?
Can we agree to
Rape adj. To force through coercion or physical force to engage in sex acts one has not consented to
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@prefix
After some effort I'm actually finding it very hard to find out how much the government spends preventing welfare fraud versus what it simply spends on welfare (which is a bit suspect in my opinion). So i guess I'll concede this point. Though I believe it would be more cost effective to the US as a whole I don't have the statistics to back this up.
So let's say for the sake of argument it wpuld cost the us government more than it currently spends when adjusted for overall economic benefit.
So long as you agree that
A) a woman who has been raped should not be found financially responsible
And
B) no woman should be forced to prove they were raped before receiving benefits
Then we still ought give benefits to all unwed mothers so that we don't risk missing one of those who should be included.
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@prefix
Do I need to sight a study to know that of we just took all the money we gave now and then added in all the money we spend on fraud prevention and split is between all recipients (all unwed mothers) then there would be more money available to give?
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@prefix
The question at hand is WHO OUGHT TO PAY
This is very much on topic because...
I think the answer really ought to be the same answer with the same onnus (or lack thereof) on the mother whether you consider her a "victim" or not.
This is very much on topic because...
I think the answer really ought to be the same answer with the same onnus (or lack thereof) on the mother whether you consider her a "victim" or not.
Therefore
IF a person who is raped cannot be asked to be financially responsible (though perhaps physically responsible) AND if it is none of your business which women were raped THEN you must extend this courtesy to all women in order to assure that no persons who have been raped are held financially responsible.
Honestly it would be cheaper to just provide a fund to help with the raising of all children than to maintain the necessary bureaucracy to catch "cheaters" who "don't need the money". If your goal truly is one of fiscal responsibility the money savvy move here, the frugal thrifty thing to do, would be to just offer universal child care benefits.
Your tax dollars would go further and do more good.
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@ebuc
That was a... wow ebuc that was a delight to read... I understood everything. Either I'm getting smarter or you dumbed this down for me.
Either way thanks.
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@RationalMadman
so you don't ever like posts as in click the thumb?
Nope
Not on you tube or reddit either.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Me:Stop trying to see if people have penises.Yo: I'm not.
Then you are judging by criteria other than penis ownership
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@YouFound_Lxam
I could say I was always black. Doesn't make me black.
Oh really? Where exactly is the cut off where a light skinned black person becomes a white person? Or perhaps it is not so cut and dry as all that. Perhaps race is a social construct that sometimes has as much or more to do with the self identity of an individual than any actual societal expectations?
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@RationalMadman
we thumbs up on this site if we like comments
With all due respect that hardly sounds like something I would do.
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@RationalMadman
It's reality that is the axiomatic absolute.
Well stated and my new favorite RM quote.
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