Total posts: 7,093
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
It’s not my job to explain why something doesn’t make sense, if your the one advocating for it then you explain why it does.
This is your philosophy not mine. I can't tell you why you something doesn't make sense to you but if you don't know I can tell you haven't thought about it enough.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Because that makes even less sense then nihilism.
Why?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
No you said it was because nihilism confuses you but nihilism doesn't have anything to do with it. Why not just stop believing in hell without becoming a nihilist?
I'll repeat that.
Why not just stop believing in hell without becoming a nihilist?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Correction, I said I’m afraid of hell because of my faith in its existence.
Why do you have faith? You certainly don't have evidence.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
You don't have to be a nihilist or even an atheist in order to consider hell a fiction.Did I say that?
You said you are afraid of hell because of nihilism. IF you don't have to be a nihilist to think hell is bunk THEN nihilism is not the real reason you are afraid of it. Bhudists are not afraid of hell and they are not nihilists so why don't you just stop believing in hell WITHOUT becoming a nihilist? What is the REAL reason?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Because nihilism seems confusing and depressing to me.
False dichotomy. You don't have to be a nihilist or even an atheist in order to consider hell a fiction. What makes you right and budists wrong? If you just CHOSE to be a bhudist you would still not be a nihilist and you would not have to be afraid of hell.
Why aren't you a bhudist?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Yeah well I have every right to call you out for being inconsistent,
Not really. Not until you engage the conversation instead of being obdurate in its face.
So why are you so afraid to go to a place you don't even have evidence of?Because I have faith.
Why?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
I determine my own energy thanks just the same. So why are you so afraid to go to a place you don't even have evidence of?
Wouldn't it make more sense to be afraid go to Milwaukee? I mean at least you know Milwaukee is a real place.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
What makes me the end all be all in regards to fiction/nonfiction?
Nothing whatever. You aren't a good source at all. You are just the one I am having the conversation with so you can EITHER demonstrate hell or WE can treat ot like a fiction.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Tell me when in this discussion has being careful with my language made a difference? Unless you can demonstrate hell it is fictional.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
People don't believe things they haven't been convinced of. The default is skepticism.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Are you now claiming that you unironically believe in the tooth fairy? Because if so we have a REALLY different idea of what is or is not rational.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
The same way you know that bigfoot and the tooth fairy are fictional.
Created:
Posted in:
-->@Polytheist-Witch
Calling it irrational implies it hurts the person or someone else
Irrational =/= hurtful
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
What does nihilism have to do with a fictional place you are afraid of?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
The fear of going to a place that probably doesn't exist for reasons you don't understand after you have no reason to expect to be experiencing anything is rational?we have very different notions of what is and is not rational I see.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
All I said is WE are not rational we are human. Humans are capable of sone rational thought but they are not rational. Not one hundred percent and we must always maintain vigilance of our irrational tendencies if we are to be at all rational.
I'm sorry if you read more into that statement than I actually meant or you were offended but it is not an untrue statement.
So which is it? Does being human mean we cannot have a rational discussion or not?
After all you also have emotions tied up in your moral opinions. You are uncomfortable with the fact that justice isn't perfected you are of the opinion that it should be.
I am sorry by the way that justice isn't perfect and really can't be and also that it is just a thing we made up. I know that distresses you.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
If having emotions makes you irrational then we are both irrational.
If it doesn't then just having emotions doesn't mean I am.
Are we both irrational or are we both capable of being rational?
You can say either but you can't say both.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Poor irrational Tarrik. Giving himself arguments for why he doesn't have to listen rather than engaging any arguments.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Neither of us is rational. What does that have to do with any of our arguments?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
So you admit that caring isn’t rational?
It is perfectly rational to expect people to care but caring is an emotion and emotions cannot be rational. Moral intuition is also an emotion and is also not at its core rational though it is rational to expect people to have moral intuition. There is behavior that makes us uncomfortable (a feeling) and it tends to coincide with behavior that would harm us either individually or as a species.
Think about it and be honest with yourself if not me don't you determine what is immoral by how uncomfortable it makes you? Isn't it upsetting when someone steals or cheats and gets away with it? What is rational about that?
The question at that point is what do we agree makes us uncomfortable and how can we best minimize those behaviors in ourselves and others. This is entirely utility based. We should not cheat one another because life is better and easier if you can depend on your neighbors.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Even if that is true, you do choose what you act on
What does this even mean? I can only act on what is and I do not choose what is. What is simply... IS.
you choose to act in a way that prolongs your survival as opposed to shortening it.
That would seem to be indistinguishable from being compelled by biology driven by natural selection. Do you have some way of determining the difference between "choosing" to live and being driven to survive by your instincts?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Well emotions ate not rational. You are after all asking me why I have a particular emotion.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
What would qualify as a sufficient answer here? Because of natural selection (an ongoing process) I care about my own survival. That doesn't mean I care about natural selection to the same degree or in the same way as I care about my personal survival and the survival of the human race.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
I don't care about it particularly but it is the answer to the question why do we care.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Humans care about their own survival more often than not. This is unsurprising considering the mechanisms of natural selection. Anything else is subjective.
Would you finally like to have a conversation which acknowledges the necessarily subjective nature of the human experience?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
I don't have a better answer than biology. Humans on average would rather live and I am a human.
We have an is here why do you keep reaching for a should?
I neither should nor shouldn't care about my survival. I just DO care. Should and shouldn't are unimportant at the most basic level because the most basic level is that I do care at all. Let's say there is no particular reason or that we can't find one. I still DO care. Now what?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Evolution.
Natural selection leads to survival instinct.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
It isn't a problem for the universe only for me. It is my personal subjective problem.
Yes i remember saying this and it was imprecise perhaps. It isn't really a problem at all just something I'd rather happen later rather than sooner. That's just a general tendency organisms have.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Death isn't a problem per se. It is the inevitable outcome of every life. My behavior includes self preservation instinct. That isn't a problem per se either just the inevitable outcome of natural selection.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
I feel like you are looking for more and there isn't any more. The world was not brought about with me in mind. I have simply adapted to the world as it is. There is no reason to assume more. It is an arrogant notion that the entire universe would be created specifically for the purpose of housing me in the skin of atmosphere clinging to a very tiny very average planet circling a completely unremarkable main sequence star. Our solar system is noteworthy only to us and only because it is ours. Every meaning is subjective. Every fact is without meaning until we put it into some subjective context.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
It isn't a problem for the universe only for me. It is my personal subjective problem.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Natural selection favors organisms with a strong will to survive. I am an organism. If there is any greater cause than this I do not know it. Occum's Razer would therefore suggest that we accept this fact at face value. I care about surviving because humans care about surviving which is because if they did not there wouldn't be any humans or a me. Unguided naturalistic deterministic processes. Chemistry makes biology possible. Biology is chemistry with a strong will to survive.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Be very clear what you are asking.
Are you asking me how natural selection favors organisms with a strong will to live or are you asking why anything evolved ever?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Well not to put to fine a point on it we cooperate exactly enough. Selfishness and selflessness can both be survival traits depending on the circumstance so it makes sense that humans are capable of both.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
That is incorrect. We are products of an uncaring environment that survives by caring for each other. No mind was necessary for minds to develope. They developed naturally through evolution. Now that minds exist all sorts of concepts also exist but they are necessary contingent on those minds and when there aren't minds any longer the concepts also will cease to exist.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
It does. Our environment doesn't care about us we care about each other.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
So far I've answered all your questions as best I can. I don't know any nihilists and neither do you. Maybe there are no functional nihilists only philosophical nihilists and they would have behaviors that are dictated by their biology + their circumstances.
Created:
Posted in:
Can I ask you a question? Are you genuinely interested in my thoughts or beliefs?Yes
Then at some point you are going to have to work with me to communicate. I can't force you to even if I want to. You will have to accept at least enough of my definitions to communicate my ideas at all. It doesn't really matter if you agree with my definitions or think they are "correct" it ONLY matters if you understand the underlying concepts. If you genuinely can't understand the very elementary explanations of some of the terms I use I have given you then you probably aren't capable of having this conversation.
I don't really think that is the issue however. I think you are afraid of what I represent to you.
A world without cosmic balance. A place were the innocent are punished along with the guilty and the evil are rewarded sometimes much more richly than the good. I think you are worried that even understanding my perspective might be somehow harmful to you. I'd like to reassure you that my philosophy has not hurt me in the slightest.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
I asked a question that has nothing to do with acceptance or decline, the fact that you feel the need to change the narrative where it suits you tells me that the questions I’m asking are reasonable and you can’t take the heat of honestly admitting so. But hey to each his own.
Can I ask you a question? Are you genuinely interested in my thoughts or beliefs?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
Ok buddy. If you say so. I still think you are making excuses not to have this discussion because some part of you is afraid I may have some reasonable points.
If you don't ever accept a definition then you don't have to have the conversation but that isn't the same as actually engaging in a debate. Just think it over.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
So what environment does one need to come to the conclusion of nihilism?
I don't know. I don't know any nihilists to ask.
Created: