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secularmerlin

A member since

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Total posts: 7,093

Posted in:
The problem of suffering
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@ronjs
free will is necessary
Actually free will is logically incoherent but assuming that free will exists I must ask do you believe free will exist in heaven?
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Posted in:
Necessary evils
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@Lemming
The first child eats both pieces of candy.
The stealing his siblings candy was an evil necessary to satisfy his sweet tooth and greed.
I'm not sure this is necessarily necessary. 
Or let's say there's a child at their blind parents death bed, and the parent asks if their other child who happens to be mute is there as well.
The child who is there 'lies and says yes they are.
Parent dies happy.
The lie was an evil necessary to satisfy the childs desire to make his parent's death happier by thinking their other mute child was there as well.
I'm not sure this is necessarily evil.
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Necessary evils
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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless...In either respect, morality is always internally processed data, rather than a universal constant.
Well stated. Some objective standard would not make US objective. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
There’s already a word that describes that, it’s called self refuting.
"A self refuting is a system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society." 

 so I am afraid I must reject your term because that sentence reads like nonsense. 

Also that is only half the task I gave you so let me repeat both steps clearly.

Firstly supply a word which means particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

Secondly supply an alternative definition of morality. 


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Necessary evils
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@zedvictor4
Irrespective of what a dictionary might say, we nonetheless run all data through our processing units before we issue a response.

All data output therefore  has a level of subjectivity to it.

Well stated. True objectivety may be beyond human ability. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Morality = particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

If this is an issue for you then you need to do two things. 

Firstly supply a word which means particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

Secondly supply an alternative definition of morality. 

You MUST do BOTH things to resolve this issue. 


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Posted in:
Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Actually nazism is not a good example as it is a political ideology and not an actual moral system but hopefully it gets my point across anyway. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.


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Necessary evils
In accepting that you can label love and hate the same thing (emotions) without confusion (as you have defacto done by referring to them thusly in your last post) you have rather undercut that labeling systems concerning them the same thing even if they’re polar opposites is confusing. 

Now please give a specific example of a moral system that stems from love and another which stems from hate.

I am uncertain any definitively and necessarily stem from love and relatively none stems from hate even if the system itself could be said to encourage hate (as arguably some moral systems which are in my opinion flawed can).

As an example Nazism does NOT stem from hate. It stems from ethno-nationalism. Hate is merely the natural result of ethno-nationalism.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Love and hate are emotions not systems. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Nothing is vague about those terms. I'm just not sure which moral systems you are referencing. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Under your view one system that embraces love and another that embraces hate
Which two systems SPECIFICALLY are you referring to here?
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
one you look up definitions in the dictionary it’s for clarity not confusion.
Nonsense. Utter tosh. Not that clarity should not be the goal but that you are using definitions to provide clarity rather than to muddy the waters.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
No I’m saying that labeling those systems the same thing even if they’re polar opposites is confusing and one you look up definitions in the dictionary it’s for clarity not confusion.
Please give an example of two such systems that are "polar opposites".
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Are you seriously suggesting that systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society do not exist? Systems like the united states legal system? 


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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Let's try an experiment. I'll give my definition and you give yours. Then we will evaluate them to see which is observable in reality and which is ONLY HYPOTHETICAL.

Morality = systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society.

Ok now it is your turn.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Hey remember when I said objective morality was definitionally impossible and you asked how and I explained that humans have NO WAY to evaluate morality except by our opinions? And you know how that is subjective by definition?

In what SPECIFIC way are systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society definitionally impossible?

You know like how objective morality is SPECIFICALLY definitionally impossible because we must rely on our opinions?
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
How exactly are systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society definitionally impossible?
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Necessary evils
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@The_Meliorist
war is a necessary evil.

it's bloody, destroys  infrastructure, and costs people limbs and livelihoods. But sometimes it is necessary for freedom.
Well you have certainly followed instructions. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Same argument applies to subjective morality.
How exactly does the same argument apply to systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society?
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever and having no standard is not more useful than having some standard even if it is an arbitrary one.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
It isn't comprehensible. It is definitionally impossible. 
How so?
The same way it has been the whole time. Unless you have an alternative definition of objective or you can suggest some method other than using our personal opinions to determine what is moral it will remain so.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever and having no standard is not more useful than having some standard even if it is an arbitrary one.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
In this case objective morality being comprehensible is useful because that’s where the goal of being objective moral starts.
It isn't comprehensible. It is definitionally impossible. 

Also GOALS ARE SUBJECTIVE. 


Also also a standard you can't share with me is not at all useful.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Comprehensible and useful are separate issues. 

In any case if you find subjective morality confusing BECAUSE it is largely a matter of opinion then some UNKNOWN objective standard does NOTHING to resolve the issue. You have suggested a solution that doesn't solve anything. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Unless we as humans have some way of distinguishing between the two this is not actually helpful to us
Aren’t you the same guy that said

Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us.
Yes. What is your point?
Here’s an idea, or maybe it’s because some are objectively right and others are objectively wrong.
Unless you can demonstrate what is "objectively right" (and don't forget that right and wrong are essentially subjective terms) then we must still use our own personal opinions to decide what is moral. An objective moral standard (in addition to being definitionally impossible) DOES NOT resolve the problem (if it is a problem) of human inability to use an objective moral standard. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Speak for yourself, I see subjective morality as self refuting considering the many different diametrically opposed faces it has.
Please explain what you mean by diametrically opposed. As far as I can tell they just disagree.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
There you go being dramatic and flying over the handle, nobody said anything about “the world” but the meaning of morality is plain old semantics and at the very least should make sense to everyone.
Is the meaning unclear? I though what confused you was that various moral codes disagree.

By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Here’s an idea, or maybe it’s because some are objectively right and others are objectively wrong.
Unless we as humans have some way of distinguishing between the two this is not actually helpful to us and again objective morality is definitionally impossible unless you have sone alternative definition to offer.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Is the meaning unclear? I though what confused you was that various moral codes disagree.

By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.

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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us. That said the reason various moral systems disagree about some points (I think saying diametrically opposed is going a little far personally) is because it us subjective. 

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Posted in:
The problem of suffering
-->@Polytheist-Witch 
Food is a currency of sorts. People use it against others. 
Well stated.
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Posted in:
The problem of suffering
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@ludofl3x
So then why doesn't he offer a non-magical solution to end, say, hunger? The only answer would appear to be "He doesn't want to," which then leads to one of two possible conclusions. Either he intends for people to starve to death, or he cannot actually offer these solutions. 
Well stated.
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Posted in:
The problem of suffering
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@ronjs
I'm not refering to "magic", which is just human trickery, but God can offer effective, permanent solutions to any problem He so chooses.
Well that just begs the question why don't they to the point where any problem that isn't permanently solved a reason to question god(s) existence.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
When i say morality I mean a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

If you don't want to call that then please provide an alternative term.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Part of the problem is that you can't get to objective (as absent human opinions in evaluating information) without objective facts. You can't have the objective you are referencing without objective as it pertains to philosophy. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
In order to have those you have to prove subjective morality exists which you can’t.
Not at all. 

Firstly linguistically speaking no moral standard can be objective so what you are arguing is that morality doesn't exist at all.

If morality doesn't exist I can still have opinions about morality in the same way I can have opinions about anything else fictional. I can have opinions about Odyseus for example or about the magic in harry potter.

In fact even if there were some objective moral standard (which you have not demonstrated) well I can have opinions about objective things too. Earth objectively speaking has gravity. I am of the opinion that the gravity on earth is just right.

Do you not see how your argument is self defeating?

If you see a problem with my reasoning please point out the SPECIFIC flaw or offer a LOGICALLY NECESSARY counter factual. 

Or if all this seems like a little much maybe we could talk about the basics as I've repeatedly offered.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Ok I have opinions regarding morality. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
personal moral intuition
There’s no such thing.
Personal opinions regarding morality do absolutely exist.
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
You believe in some morality I gather. In order to observe this morality you must evaluate any given situation and do your best to determine if you are behaving "moraly". These determinations are directly dependent upon your opinions about morality. 
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Posted in:
The problem of suffering
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@fauxlaw
A wish may be subjective, but a true goal, one that is going to be accomplished by the will and the means of the individual making it becomes very objective.
This is not objective as the noun. It is as the adjective. 
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Necessary evils
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@Tarik
Your personal moral intuition is an emotion and an opinion. Even if you are trying to adopt another moral standard besides your own you must by necessity evaluate it with your personal moral intuition. Morality is not objective by that definition either.
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Necessary evils
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@fauxlaw
Objectives as the synonym of goal? Those are subjective of course but if you are not actually making that argument I have misunderstood. I thought you meant objective as the antonym of subjective. Objectives (the noun) are subjective but they can be called objectives. 

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Necessary evils
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@fauxlaw
Hints are not enough please be explicit in your definitions... in whatever thread you choose to discuss them.

I don't have much use for faith. You don't need faith if you have evidence and without evidence why would you believe? We must be always vigilant of our epistemological limits. 
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Posted in:
The problem of suffering
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@EtrnlVw
Without specific structural knowledge of what actions lead to what karmic effect this gives us ZERO actionable data. It is in fact indistinguishable from a post hoc rationalization for suffering. 
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