Total posts: 7,093
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
I feel like this entire exchange has been more or less completely besides the point as whenever touched on why a female or a girl should not be allowed into the boyscouts.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Athias
What is human reproduction? And what do the terms, "male" and "female" designate?
Biological reproduction is the replication of organisms by whatever means that is accomplished the terms male and female denote cchromosome differences. Persons with Male chromosomes as a general rule possess female chromosomes as well.
No, actually it isn't. "Binary" is often misunderstood. A binary consists of two elements and/or any combination of the two. So even if we were to consider rare examples where a person has both genitalia, that would still meet the description of a two-sex binary.
It isn't EITHER male or female but rather some COMBINATION of male and female. In this case how do we decide how female one must be before they are a woman?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
Its actually more of a spectrum than a binary even biologically speaking.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
Essentially the legal distinction is between WOMAN and MAN not MALE and FEMALE.
No distinction is made between sperm producing men and non sperm producing men.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
I see no practical legal distinction. Women's prisons can be for male women. Men's prisons can be for men who do not produce sperm Male or otherwise.
Created:
-->
@GnosticChristianBishop
I'm not sure I understand your objection. What has this to do with the fact that morality is subjective by the definition that is being used here?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
Do you really think in prison only masculine people harm feminine ones?
No but I'm not sure what your point is in that case.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
I have a concern why a feminine man cannot admit he is a man and why a butch, masculine woman feels the need to go by 'he'.
This has not been eliminated as an option.
I have a concern why people who hate their natural bodies so much they feel sick inside when looking in the mirror are not taught to love it but to alter their appeared sex (not gender, sex) as a pseudo-solution to the original insecurity at the heart of their fragile psyche.
This is neither a uniquely trans issue nor is it universally an issue for all trans persons. I have no problem with a "butch" female identifying as a woman I have no problem with a "feminine" female identifying as a woman. I don't have a problem with the transgender man who wants to join a drag race show.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
Feminine men are entitled to be that way, they are men. Masculine women are entitled to be that way, they are women.
But... they might be in danger if they are sent to prison. Where do you suggest we send them? Will a feminine man be safer in a women's prison? Should they be housed there on that basis even if they identify as a man and want to be treated as such?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
There often isnt a safe place to send them.
For whom is prison safe?
"Knowing humans as though dost would you allow yourself to be captured defenseless by them?"
Q- Star Trek T.N.G.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
I do not need to spell out for you what a criminally-minded trans woman is physically capable of doing to a cis-female cellmate, nor how harsh the female prisoners can be with their backlash to the prisoner.
Argument from consequence. I heard an argument like this that really hurt some people once. Babies cried and stuff fell over and everything.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
A person's inability to produce sperm is not considered in the case of sterile candidates. Clearly it is not sperm production but other factors that decide which prison one is sent to. In any case at least as of recently the law supports transgender women being housed in women's prisons so your legal arguments are somewhat flat here.
Created:
-->
@GnosticChristianBishop
When the vast majority agree that the Golden Rule is objective, how can you say that morals are subjective?
Are you serious? If the MAJORITY AGREES is your standard then the agreement of SUBJECTS is involved. That is definitionally subjective.
I mean unless you would like to put forth an alternative definition of subjective.
The golden rule would have to be correct DESPITE the moral standard of the general public not BECAUSE of it.
Created:
-->
@3RU7AL
Why did he kick Satan out of heaven?demands for equal rights
Well stated
Created:
Posted in:
Your ability to produce sperm or eggs unimportant to me in determining if any given human can join the boy scouts or the army. I do not take it into account when deciding which bathroom you should use. In no way does your (in)ability to produce sperm or eggs make it less damaging for personal wellbeing or the public health to investigate or prosecute criminal cases differently in this basis. It should not be an issue when determining if someone receives a loan or government aid.
IF there is no legal distinction THEN what is the argument AGAINST accepting someone else's personal identity or even just treating it as though it were none of your buisness which of course also exists as an option?
Your argument might go
IF X is true THEN biologically female persons should not be allowed to join the boy scouts.
Or similar.
IF there is no legal distinction THEN what is the argument AGAINST accepting someone else's personal identity or even just treating it as though it were none of your buisness which of course also exists as an option?
Your argument might go
IF X is true THEN biologically female persons should not be allowed to join the boy scouts.
Or similar.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@zedvictor4
Some people make a song and dance about the exceptions..
I suppose we do not so much disagree about the fact that there are exceptions merely about what should constitute an exception. I think we should make an exception in every case that it is requested unless there is some specific reason not too.
That even a biological male who retains their male reproductive functionality should be allowed to live as a woman whatever that means to her unless you have some specific rational for discluding her.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Athias
Men are adult males whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as insemination.Women are adult females whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as gestation.It's always been that clear-cut to me.
There are many adults who do not have a reproductive role at all. This seems like an inconclusive standard. It doesn't include all humans.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@zedvictor4
Just as there will be other types of developmental anomalies.
People. There will be different kinds of people.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
That’s irrelevant, and frankly up to a doctor to designate. Is it possible to have 6 fingers on a hand? Yes. But do we say that humans have 6 fingers on a hand. No.
I don't understand the corollary here.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheMorningsStar
What if they have both sets of external sex organs but neither is functioning? Are they neither a man or a woman?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@3RU7AL
what factors do you believe are worth considering when the survival of two humans and or two groups of humans become mutually exclusive ?
I have no one else's self interest to use as a measure. This limits my potential answer to the those humans that I have the most vested interest in.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheMorningsStar
All known intersex conditions still fall under this binary understanding.
Ok then you should have no trouble telling me if a baby with only x chromosomes and a functioning penis is a female boy or a girl with a penis.
Created:
-->
@FLRW
Psychological and neuroscience research both tell us that morality, our mental ability to tell right from wrong in our behaviors and the behaviors of others, is a product of evolution. Morality has been passed on through the course of evolution because it helps us to live in large social groups by enhancing our ability to get along and interact with others. “Building blocks” of morality, such as sensing fairness, experiencing empathy, and judging others’ harmful and helpful actions, can be observed in infancy, before a child’s social environment would be able to have a strong influence. Specific parts of the human brain are involved in moral reasoning – both the kind that happens very quickly and the kind that is thought out. Damage to certain parts of the brain can dramatically alter moral judgment and behavior. Although human morality has been passed down through evolution, it is also dependent on the culture in which we grow up. What humans consider to be moral behavior varies from culture to culture and also varies across time.
All very true.
Created:
-->
@Lemming
Biological sex =/= gender
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Do you perhaps have a reputable citation?
Created:
As I get older I still identify as a young person. I still feel vital and I'm always surprised when I look in the mirror and see what time has made of me. I am also increasingly uncomfortable in and with my body often wishing to "turn back the clock"
In fact
Many people resort to surgery or other cosmetic measures in an attempt to "pass" as younger people.
Is it wrong to want to be younger and to want others to think we are younger?
If it isn't wrong then what is wrong with wanting others to view you as a different gender than you were assigned at birth? Even if it were not true. Even if nothing you do can ever make you a different gender than the one written on your birth certificate?
Now consider for a moment the possibility that the gender on your birth certificate is not like your age and may not actually accurate. That it may in fact be incorrect for a number of physical and psychological reasons.
Let's say we disallow all cosmetic surgeries, both those meant to help one "pass" for younger and those that allow one to "pass" as a specific gender identity. Are you still opposed to the idea of a person in this position dressing, acting and asking to be addressed as that gender (whatever that means to you or them)? If so may I suggest that it isn't the surgery that offends you so much as the very idea that someone would have the audacity to challenge your views on gender roles.
This isn't meant as a strawman. I'm sure not everyone who opposes cosmetic surgery feels this way but it is worth asking yourself if this does in fact apply to you and if you are ok with that.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
There is evidence however that transgender people have far lower instances of depression and suicidal thoughts after they become open about being transgender than they experienced when they were closeted transgender people.
Created:
Posted in:
Quote from source.
The external sex organs may not match the internal sex organs or genetic sex.
Consider the case of a baby with only x chromosomes but which has functioning penis and testicles. Is this a female boy? Is it a girl with a penis?
Lets consider an infant with functional ovaries and a non functional penis. Is that a boy or a girl? Would you support surgery to "correct" their genitals?
Let's consider an infant that displays some degree of hermaphrodism. Do you support surgery to "correct" their genitals? Which genitals should we "correct" them to have?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
That's the business of the body I am talking about.
What is your stance on circumcision?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
I don't know what you are talking about. Being transgender cannot be marketed to anyone effectively. One simply doesn't decide to be trans. No commercial or product in the world can make a cis person trans or a trans person cis. Your tobacco example is a false analogy.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
promoting designer genitalia... directed at kids
Let's address this hogswallop first because clearly no one is directly marketing designer genitals to children. That is just the same "we must protect the children" fear mongering that always accompanies any fight for social equality. Let's just address the facts shall we?
as if it were a tattoo or a body piercing.
Is a tattoo or a body piercing bad for some reason? It seems like a nonissue both as a health concern and as an ethical concern although I am primarily disinterested in ethical questions unless it is also a health concern in which case the health issue trumps the ethical issues to me. Are elective cosmetic surgeries bad? Do you oppose nose jobs for the purposes of "protecting the children"?
the mortality rates of trans.
I'm not really sure what you are referencing but they aren't dying because of the surgeries so this is clearly besides the point.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
Is it my business to care if somebody in my nation is raped or robbed from and it's not my body or money?
These are not acts one consents too. Preventing rape is actually supporting the "it's not my body" thing as you so eloquently put it.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.
This is a rather large assumption. Now I'm a cis person and you should really ask a trans person about what being trans is like but when it was explained to me hate was never brought up. Uncomfortable is a more common description. Also the trans people I know report far more sex and body positive attitudes developed after they came out. This is true whether or not the trans person elects to have any surgery.
Please try to understand that the internal state of being transgender the question of whether surgery is appropriate in a given case and the phenomenon of "passing" otherwise known as being properly gendered by strangers without having to correct them (which cis people often take so for granted that they have not actually considered how offended they would be if they were misgendered by a stranger) are all seperate issues even if they are all important issues to the trans community.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
The surgery is not coequal with being transgender. Trans people are trans people before the surgery as well. You really do seem to be conflating being a trans person with the phenomenon of passing and the efforts some trans people go to in order to more reliably pass.
You can absolutely support trans persons without supporting the idea of surgery but even while opposing surgery it would be best to remember that it is none of your buisness because it is not your body.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@zedvictor4
Comparing trans people to pedophiles is clearly damaging no matter how well intentioned. Protect the children has oft been the rallying cry of the intolerant.
When I discuss a trans person I am not discussing only those who have resorted to surgery or even all of those who have come out. No one chooses to feel as though they were assigned the wrong gender at birth and how the person decides to cope with it (choice is a bit of a loaded word when you don't believe in freewill) it is still a fact of their lives.
Created:
-->
@Tradesecret
Well I have no reason to believe in any god(s) but if any exists they would clearly be a subject and those things which are subject dependent are subjective by definition. Unless you are prepared to put forward an alternative definition the logical conclusion of your argument is that nothing objective can exist.
Created:
-->
@Tradesecret
Then your argument is that EVERYTHING is subjective (dependent upon a subject) and no objective thing can exist ever.
Created:
-->
@Tradesecret
Without moral actors no morality could exist.
True or false?
Created:
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
That does seem like a strange leap.
Created:
-->
@Lemming
Nihilism dislike solipsism in that whether or not it is true my experience and behavior are unaltered. I don't give a fig about nihilism any more than I give a fig about morality.
Created:
-->
@Lemming
If this were a simulation it would not effect my experience or give me adequate reason to change my behavior, especially if I cannot test this hypothesis. Solipsism is either a nonissue or everything is a nonissue and we may as well not bother. Take your pick.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
While that is a fair assessment there is a difference between the two statements
"The moon orbits the earth"
And
"Lying is wrong even to protect someone's feelings"
The difference is that one is an observation and the other is an opinion.
Created:
-->
@Lemming
I said apparently fiction and apparently real. It is possible to blur the distinction but it is far more utilitous to make a sharp distinction between the two.
Created:
-->
@Lemming
Each fictional universe comes with its author's assumptions but this is not apparently fiction and there is no apparent author.
Created:
Posted in:
Movement is subjective to a perspective as well. We can only ever measure the movement of any object in relation to another object which we consider "stationary" for the purposes of the statement. You can make objective statements about moving objects only if we agree to a common standard of what is "stationary" and what is "in motion".
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Is this a matter of opinion or is it an independent observation? You can make objective statements about subjective matters so long as we agree to a particular subjective perspective for the purposes of the conversation.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lemming
All organisms have genetic predispositions to some behaviors. Humans are no different.
Created:
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
My moral intuition agrees with yours poly but that only makes it an opinion we agree upon and incidentally (or not so incidentally) one which aligns with the good of the species.
Moral arguments are ought statements.
Created:
-->
@RationalMadman
You really cannot speak for any theist or atheist other than yourself. Defining someone's stance as other than it is does not actually change their stance at all
Created:
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Who decides which things if not a subject?
Created: