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@Dr.Franklin
Correct me if I'm wrong but the original topic was whether some actual god(s) (as opposed to fictional ones) were necessarily connected with any religion. I maintain that we can only confirm this if we are guilty of confirmation bias and can only deny it if we commit a black swan fallacy but since the default is skepticism it is perfectly reasonable to say that there is no evidence to support the hypothesis.
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@Fallaneze
But what constitutes innoscent? The word just means not having done wrong. Who is and is not innocent is what we actually debate. Innocence is prescriptive.
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@Fallaneze
Math is just a language. That using this language two men came to similar conclusions is not at all surprising. As for fractions that is referring to a part of an object and negative numbers refer to a deficit of objects. That math allows us to refer not just to apples we see but slso.to apples we owe or are owed or just that we need is amazing but it is a testament to human ingenuity not a ln inherent property of the universe.
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@Fallaneze
What makes it seem like there are no objective moral standards?That people disagree and argue over what us moral almost as if it is just a subjective opinion.
The default position is mere non-belief.
Skepticism, non-belief, fail to accept, reject. You seem to be making a distinction without a difference.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I am not accusing anyone of anything. The bible makes it quite clear that the yahweh commands and engages the extermination of entire civilian populations. Your argument doesn't seem to be that the yahweh did not engage in genocide as that it was justified genocide.I am quite familiar with the stories and I am still not accusing God of a crime, especially the crime of genocide.
Out of curiosity, would you consider Thanksgiving a genocide of turkeys?
No. No one is trying to exterminate Turkey's. The moral implications of raising animals as food aside it is not the extermination of any species.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So you are entirely unfamiliar with the bible then? Not familiar with the story of the flood or the battles in which the yahweh commands that entire populations to the sword including women children and even goats? If you are not even familiar with the source material then this conversation isn't going to go far.
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@Fruit_Inspector
On a side note I am not accusing anyone of anything as the I have no reason to think the bible more than fictional.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Genocide has a particular definition. If the termination of entire civilian populations was involved then it was a genocide. So I will ask you again. Did the yahweh as depicted in the bible condone, command or perpetuate the termination of entire civilian populations? If so then that would be a genocide by definition.Well as the one making a severe accusation against the ancestors of the Jews (arguably the most highly persecuted group in world history), I think it is upon you to substantiate your accusation with evidence of specifically who they committed the crime of genocide against, and why it should be considered genocide.
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@Dr.Franklin
Well, God inspired the authors of the Bible, therefore Isaiah, in this case, had knowledge only God knew. While writing the Bible, God spoke to Isiah and told him the exact words about the universe.
I understand your claim. You don't have to keep repeating it. At this point in the discussion you should be sharing any sufficient independently verifiable evidence you have in support of your claim not simply restating it.
Ok so let's say that multiple gods exist
Ok let's say you have not demonstrate any of them. Why should I believe they exist at all? As for your argument about what constitutes the 'best' god that presumes that any god(s) would care about humans or their worship at all. That god(s) would care about human affairs is yet another undemonstrated claim. You are really racking them up. Good for you.
The Purpose was to pave the way for humans with Adam and Eve, Sea Creatures before land Creatures, water before land,etc Genesis 1 is fact and the days are millions of years
This is a claim. I'm beginning to wonder if you even know the difference between claims and the evidence that supports them.
The plan is in the holy scriptures and books, Jews get this, Christians get this, Muslims get this, etc.
why should muslims and jews care about a plan laid out in the Christian bible.
Science doesn't leave room for interpretation but Scripture certainly does. So many people interpret the Bible differently because Everyone is different
In my opinion this is part of the problem. The bible can and has been used to justify some acts that I at least consider horrifying and immoral (various inquisitions holy wars and slavery in the American south).
Why on earth would I believe there is one then?Because Me, personally can not give an outside perspective, isn't this about the confirmation bias stuff
You didn't look it up did you? There is evidence of santa.there are many pictures of him and many children visit him and receive toys from him. As a child I would often wake up to find presents from santa. If you don't look any further into the issue then congratulations you have proven santa exists. That is confirmation bias.
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@ebuc
It's called a metaphor. If you don't understand metaphors and I don't understand your blocks of symbols we may be in trouble.
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@ebuc
We say this to each other a lot. Let me try to say it differently. If you see butterflies for the first time in a field and all of them are blue you can logically infer from your observations that all butterflies are blue. Based on only your current observations and nothing else that ou s not an illogical assumption. The problem is that you have not seen all butterflies.Huh? You have lost me again.
Everything we have ever observed comports with the physical laws we observe (or seems to but that is a different discussion) but we have not observed all the things there are (presumably). I am willing to operate under the assumption that the laws of physics are universal until some new information comes along but we really don't know. We have not seen all the butterflies.
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@Mopac
If it is a revealed truth and if you are not the one who reveals it then why am I talking to you at all?
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@Dr.Franklin
You are using a very heavy interperative brush here. When taken at face value the literal wording of the text claims that the Yahweh created Adam fully formed from dust.Sure humans before evolution was Neathernthals, is it a coincidence that they went extinct
If by coincidence you mean by unguided causality with no real purpose nor a will to determine any purpose other than the will of living organisms then it would certainly seem to be.
I am willing to discuss your interpretation of course but only with the understanding that I have no particular reason to accept your opinion over the opinion of a bible literalist who denies evolution all together. You are both using the same source material.That's why there are different churches and a Jewish Religion, God has a plan for all interpretations of his text, the Bible was meant for all interpretations, Also Evolution vs creation is useless if science is the same source material too.
I agree that arguing against evolution is untenable given the dearth of evidence. As to the rest how have you determined the yahweh"s plan if not from the very book you are trying to prove? And if your source is also the subject you are trying to demonstrate then your argument by necessity will become circular.
Why on earth would I believe there is one then?Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective.Can't
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@Dr.Franklin
This is actually my question. The bible says some stuff and some of that stuff is arguably in line with our current scientific understanding. So what?Because it was right before we figured it out, how?
Assuming for the benefit of the discussion that it was 'right' may I suggest that how is indeed the issue and that if your claim is that the answer is that some god(s) were inv6then that is exactly the claim you need to demonstrate.
I do not see your logic only an argument ad populum.Failed at what? In what context?If other religions existed and they arent as popular then than the Abrahamic Religions, their god failed, which means they dont exist, see my logic
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@Dr.Franklin
You are using a very heavy interperative brush here. When taken at face value the literal wording of the text claims that the Yahweh created Adam fully formed from dust. I am willing to discuss your interpretation of course but only with the understanding that I have no particular reason to accept your opinion over the opinion of a bible literalist who denies evolution all together. You are both using the same source material.Actually, the opposite is true, The Biblical Timeline in Genesis meets the timeline of Science, basically, God used science to create Evolution and humans
Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective.
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@Mopac
Ok that's nice. Of course it means there is no reason for us to continue however since trying to understand your position can only confuse me further, a statement I do not necessarily disagree with by the way.
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@Dr.Franklin
It doesn't matter. The bible and the Koran are both interesting books with a lot of historical importance and both contain some very nice sentiments and some things that are just monstrous.So what
This is actually my question. The bible says some stuff and some of that stuff is arguably in line with our current scientific understanding. So what?
Failed at what? In what context?Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective. Also this fails to address the thousands of religions besides christianity and Islam many of which you and I have to little collective knowledge of to have an informed conversation about them.what religions, they clearly failed
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@Dr.Franklin
The genesis story in the bible contradicts both our best current theories about the diversity of species and the formation of the current local (observable) universe and also itself confusing the order in which the Yahweh created.Please provide evidenc that the Bible is anti-scinetific
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@Dr.Franklin
It is my belief Islam is false
It doesn't matter. The bible and the Koran are both interesting books with a lot of historical importance and both contain some very nice sentiments and some things that are just monstrous.
Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective. Also this fails to address the thousands of religions besides christianity and Islam many of which you and I have to little collective knowledge of to have an informed conversation about them.
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@Mopac
We Orthodox don't take our scripture as the "one revealed truth". We would say it points to The One Revealed Truth. We would also say that Jesus Christ is not only the fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophets, but all religion. At the end of the road is Christ, who is The True Way
I'm not sure exactly what the distinction here is. You claim to have a special book which at least in part proves your claims about reality. Even if you do not believe that it us strictly speaking necessary to the argument.
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@Mopac
You are welcome to call what would give every appearance of being a mindless and unguided naturalistic occurrence God. You are even welcome to worship it. This has never been the part of your claim I disagree with. It is your suggestions that it is
Reasonable expectations based on past experience leads me to believe that now that you have softened your claim to one that I do not disagree with you are about to introduce elements to your argument that I do not accept and react incredulously that I would accept your softened claim but not your more specific claims.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you were going somewhere with this please go right ahead.
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@Dr.Franklin
It is my friend. I realized that we and I in particular since I started it and have little interest in sports, were being very rude. So I came here to continue our discussion.
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@Mopac
If not knowing something is a sin then I confess my sin. I do not know the origins of the universe as it is beyond human epistemology to say what happened before the time at which our best math breaks down if we follow our best current cosmological models.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
How do you have any morals if you don't collect stamps?
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And with apologies to the entire sports forum for interrupting.
Well theyre wrong
How do you know that they are incorrect. They also have a holy book with passages that could be interpreted in a way that seems to reflect pur current scientific understanding (and also passages that directly contradict our current scientific understanding I'm sure). That is the 'evidence' you are putting forward for your claim. They have this evidence also. Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective.
Also let me point out that even if the bible contains some passages that with some artistic licence could arguably be referring to modern scientific discoveries this does not in itself tell us how this information got there. Its mere presence in a book does not prove the source of the information or the book though it might make claims about said sources.Really then there would have been chanches of thos claims being wrong, but there isnt any??
I sense you are getting emotional here and I'm trying to discern which claim you are referencing and how it being factually accurate tells us where the information came from. All religions (with a holy book) claim their holy book is the one revealed truth. Please show me the observable difference from an outside perspective.
On a final note even if the bible contains some passages that with some artistic licence could arguably be referring to modern scientific discoveries it also contains much that is blatantly scientifically inaccurate. If we are too evaluate the bible fairly they must be taken into account as well.How so?
By acknowledging that they are in the bible and run counter to your hypothesis that the bible is as an accurate source of scientific knowledge.
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@Dr.Franklin
Ok then I need you to look that phenomena up and also understand that I have had virtually the same claim (I have a holy book with some passages that with some artistic licence could arguably be referring to modern scientific discoveries) from Muslim and Hindu posters. So according to them their god(s) has equal or superior predictive power to yours.
Also let me point out that even if the bible contains some passages that with some artistic licence could arguably be referring to modern scientific discoveries this does not in itself tell us how this information got there. Its mere presence in a book does not prove the source of the information or the book though it might make claims about said sources.
On a final note even if the bible contains some passages that with some artistic licence could arguably be referring to modern scientific discoveries it also contains much that is blatantly scientifically inaccurate. If we are too evaluate the bible fairly they must be taken into account as well.
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@Dr.Franklin
Do you know what confirmation bias is?
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@Dr.Franklin
This is your claim but one god or many I have no reason to accept your explanation for the existence of the universe unless you can demonstrate it.there is one god, one person creates the unioverse the way they want to, many gods can't mulisamoulsy create one thing
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@Dr.Franklin
If your claim is that some actual god(s) has contacted or interacted with some human(s)then you will have to demonstrate your claim.
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@Dr.Franklin
I sense you are about to make this religious by trying to connect some god(s) to a particular religion. You are welcome to do so but I will remind you that you yourself asked that we not do so.
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@Dr.Franklin
I have no sufficient evidence that any god(s) have ever 'connected' with any human(s).
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@Fruit_Inspector
Well this can be cleared up very simply. Yes or no did it involve the systematic termination of entire civilian populations?I think there should have to be at least some burden of proof to classify the conquering of Canaan by Israel as genocide.
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@disgusted
I disagree. I dont know isn't frightening. It is a chance to learn. I sincerely hope that I never know everything.
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@Dr.Franklin
There is no evidence that if any god(s) exist they are connected with any particular religion.
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@Paul
I know what a gravity well is. What I don't know is of the entirety of the universe amounts to one or what ah as pe it takes if it is.
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I'm not sure anyone knows what one looks like bit I have seen 3d models and I understand the concept. It doesn't matter. We do not know what the unobserved parts of reality are like.
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When you say that something exists eternally you are making a claim. Claims require a burden of proof. Yoir claim concerns things outside the local observable spacetime. You cannot directly observe the unobservable so you assume that it resembles what has been observed. This is logical and based on common sense. It is also beyond our epistemology.
I would consider it a personal favor if you stopped referring to the very humble admition that there are things we cannot be certain of and that this is one of them as egotistical behavior. That is nonsense.
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@RationalMadman
How have you determined all this? Just show me the coin and I will be on my way.
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@Vader
If your predictions come true let me know so I can inform PGA that you have been in contact with some god(s)
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@RationalMadman
Or maybe physical reality is governed by physical laws which do not require any conscious direction. Till I see the coin one cup is as likely as any other and there may not be a coin.
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@Mopac
I mean unless you know where the coin is before you pick you will by necessity be making your decision arbitrarily.
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Ignoring everything else and just focusing on this
Your still confused. Cosmic = Universal = everywhere and everywhen.
There is no reason to think we have observed more than a small fraction of what exists so arguments concerning what exists every where and every when are by necessity purely conjecture. Your logic is not flawed your available information is just insufficient. It is a structural flaw in your argument. Perhaps you should reformulate the argument to eliminate this flaw and we ccx an try again.
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@Mopac
I agree if you say the coin is under the cup and it is not then you are wrong Mopac.
Where does that leave us?
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@Mopac
In otherwords, like this topic, it's all meaningless.
The game with the cup and the coin? Not at all. Play if you want. Maybe there is a coin and you will get lucky and find it. Just don't judge others for choosing a different cup or deciding not to play or even saying they don't believe there even is a coin.
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