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@Mopac
Sorry but your interrupting a debate with you proclaiming. Unless you intend to debate yoir comments are unnecessary and unwanted.
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@RoderickSpode
The tendency of humans to anthropomorphize and assume agency.But some people do determine nature as evidence. I'm wondering why you think that might be?
Unless I misunderstand the question
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@Fallaneze
By "rational" I mean basing your beliefs off of logical reasoning. Not having your beliefs installed by mindless forces beyond your control. You've agreed that mindless forces are not rational. If you posit that deterministic, mindless forces control all actions, then our beliefs cannot be rationally chosen
They are not chosen at all. Even if there is freewill beliefs are not a choice. Also your beliefs were not installed they were developed. They evolved over time. This was based partly on your experience with what would appear to be mindless forces like the laws of physics and partly on interactions with other minds in particular by authority figures from yoir childhood.
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@janesix
What are you trying that you have not tried so far?
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What methods have you employed in trying to communicate with a god?
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@PGA2.0
First, there is a difference between a slave and an indentured servant.
Agreed. You own a slave as property which is the situation described in leviticus.
Second, slavery was a common practice
Which has no bearing whatever on how moral the practice is.
Third, Isreal was not permitted by God to treat those captured by warfare in the same manner of how they had been treated and exploited in Egypt.
There is no archaeological evidence to support the idea that Hebrews were kept as slaves in Egypt thpug h there is ample evidence however that the Babylonian did. In any case you would have to demonstrate the existence of some god(s) begore you claim that any god(s) permitted anything so really it us what the hebrews permitted themselves to do and what was being permitted was owning people as property.
It is the owning people as property that I find objectionable and no matter how you try to spin this the bible specifically allows this practice
Fourth, slavery teaches a lesson. There is a biblical spiritual lesson to be learned from slavery in several ways.
Unless you have been a slave you are making a rather large assumption and unless you are willing to submit yourself and your children to become slaves you either think there are other ways to learn said lesson or you do not think it is worth learning.
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@Greyparrot
They are not the same argument. Please address yourself to post 20.
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@Greyparrot
Slaves are not comparable to slaves for a number of reasons which you have failed to address. Again I object to slavery on THE SAME GROUNDS that I object to you telling poly what she does with her uterus.
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@Greyparrot
Why exactly are you so concerned with poly's uterus? It is quite simply none of our buisness what she does with it or keeps in there.
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--> @Polytheist-Witch
Well stated.Having an abortion is not equal to slavery. Murder if you want to argue it but not slavery. Forcing a person to carry a pregnancy is.
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@Greyparrot
The slaves do not require a plantation to survive nor are they physically attached to a slave owner. Also they can clearly state their will and could be reasonably provided autonomy. A fetus is generally unable too survive without some means of life support and are physically attached to the mother and cannot be considered autonomous humans for more than a decad after birth.
Also and possibly most important if you have never had one growing inside you have no frame of reference for what it is like.
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@janesix
Do you feel that you can find answers like these through examination of self?
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@janesix
I try to be a forgiving sort though doubtless I too fall short of my goal.
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@Greyparrot
Well I disagree with those person's who say that. I object to slavery for largely the same reason I would object to you telling me what to do with my uteris.
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@Greyparrot
abortion survivor.
Either we all are or none of us are. Please decide which and get back to me.
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure we can justify this statement with facts but it doesn't really matter since the law does not distinguish between those who do and those that do not hold such a belief.I thought the Christians were all totally 100% against "compelled speech"
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@3RU7AL
“Under its changes to the employment nondiscrimination provisions in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, some houses of worship would be barred from ensuring their leaders and other employees abide by their beliefs about marriage, sexual behavior, and the distinction between the sexes.”In theory, this would also apply to white supremacist organizations as well.
Indeed yes. Marriage is between a white man and a white woman is not sufficiently different if ALL beliefs are protected.
Indeed let us take this to it's most cartoonist extremes.
I don't hire people who are pretending to be married when they have not actually had the Shinto marriage ceremony.
I think all sex is immoral and the only reason to do it is for procreation sake. Marriage implies sex. Therefore if I deem a group cannot or should not procreate I do not offer spousal benefits. Groups like the elder, the disabled, the homeless and people of low intellect.
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@janesix
It's not nice to call people liars janesix. I'm surprised at you. You generally have better manners than this. Also I would find it rude if I thought you were trying to tell me what I believe.
You cannot know what Someone else believes unless they share the information with you.
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--> @Polytheist-Witch
So far as I know you are the only person who has responded to this thread that actually has a working uterus. As such I feel that you are the only one entitled to an opinion here.
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@janesix
And your hope is to use yoga, meditation and self hypnosis to achieve this state?
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@Fallaneze
Are you using rational to mean logically consistent and capable of recognizing logical consistency?
Again they are not the same thing.
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@RoderickSpode
If we cannot determine something is evidence what is the practical difference from my point of view?
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@janesix
But would you say that yoga, meditation and self hypnosis are self exploratory primarily?
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Is the exploration of conciousness separate from your questions about yourself?
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@janesix
Yoga, meditation and self hypnosis.
Or in other words you wish to learn from yourself?
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Some humans know stuff. (Arguably and this is your thought experiment)
Some do not. (Unless you disagree)
How do you tell the difference?
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@janesix
So among other things you wish to learn from other humans?
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@janesix
What have you been reading/watching? What is the source of the information?
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@janesix
What methods have you used to investigate these mysteries?
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@TwoMan
I only reject premesis that cannot be proved. Suggest a method of testing past events to determine if anything else could have happened and we'll give it a try. I'm simply unaware how one could implement such a test.
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@janesix
Do you believe those questions are answerable in your lifetime?
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@janesix
I could employ the Socratic method and see if a series of questions helps you find an answer for yourself. Is that something you might be interested in?
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@TwoMan
Choice implies the abity to have done otherwise and whether or not things could have been otherwise is unknowable. Choice is simply not a term that is in keeping with our epistemology.
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@janesix
What does spiritually dead mean and what did you do specifically to bring it on?
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@PGA2.0
I define slavery as owning people as property. The bible gives provisions to do just that. It doesn't matter what word the bible uses if the definition is owning people as property that is slavery definitionally.
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@YeshuaRedeemed
The question of what utility your belief has is desperate from the question of whether or not it is true. I am unconcerned with its utility only it's verifiability. Do you have any extrabiblical independently verifiable evidence?
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@RoderickSpode
If we cannot tell that it is evidence then it is not evidence for us. Evidence that is unrecognizable/unknowable/unobservable is indistinguishable from no evidence.
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@Ramshutu
Has the being you proposed set up a practical infinity of possibilities? Because if he had that is not really a plan.
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@Fallaneze
Determinism can never be rationally accepted if it is true. One would be compelled to accept or not accept determinism in the same sense that a boulder is compelled to roll down a hill upon the force of gravity.Everything we think and do would be installed by mindless forces. Since mindless forces cannot make rational choices, and since our choices would be the sole product of mindless forces, a choice to accept determinism would not and could not be rational.
Equivocation fallacy. You are using rational to mean logically consistent and capable of recognizing logical consistency. These are not the same attribute.
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@TwoMan
People definitely experience the sensation of coming to a conclusion and/or course of action. Whether or not they cpuld have come to a different conclusion or settled on a different course of action is unknowable.
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@Mopac
Many people believe things that their epistpmologies do not support. I prefer to observe my epistemological limits honestly.
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@Ramshutu
So I ask again does the god you are proposing not know in advance what we will do? And again I say that if he dies not he is not all knowing and if he is not all knowing I have my doubts about his ability to track the many possible branching of fate of 8 billion humans to day nothing of the incalculable number of particles and quantum waveforms that make up our local spacetime. And of course if he does know what we will do ahead of time then we do not have any real choice.
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@Stronn
Or we truly have freewill
That puts freewill in the same category as god(s). Some people really really really believe but there is simply no sufficient evidence.
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@Stronn
So we either have determinism (determinism is incompatible with freewill) or we have events that are indistinguishable from random (random events are incompatible with freewill).
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@Mopac
I tell you something that is a waste of time. Telling you yet again thay no one has to deny that reality exists to deny you're claims about reality.
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@Stronn
A process can be random but still be predictable. Radioactive decay events, for instance, occur at random intervals, but over time the average number of such events per atom is highly predictable.
Not all quantum events fall under this preview and many behaviors of organisms do. You have succeeded in blurring the line between random events and "choice" even further. If we cannot tell the difference between the two then we have no reason to consider "choice" more than a random event.
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Quantum events give the appearance of freewill in that they have patterns that are unpredictable. This is indistinguishable from the phenomenon you are referring to as choice.To suggest a differnt line for afee will thread to take, let me ask if anyone can imagine a ay to make a machine that manifests free will in the same way that people do (whether that is genuine free or illusory free will I do not specify!)
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