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@Snoopy
Also is it your intention to ignore post 34 or did you just miss it in the general hullabaloo?
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@Snoopy
The issue with ad homs is not their insulting nature, though that is not desirable behavior when considering the social contract, it is that it makes a poor argument. Is your contention that you are not making an argument (formal or informal) at this time?
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@Snoopy
Calling some one an ass is an ad hominem and as I said ad hominems do not add to an argument.
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@Snoopy
And do you consider an ad hominem a thoughtful contribution?
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@Snoopy
I think it is safe to say that the primary purpose of this site is debate. It is true that the forums are not structured formal debates but ones arguments still stand or fall on their own merits and there is little merit in an ad hom.
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@Snoopy
The name of the site is your first clue that this may be a debate setting
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@Snoopy
Sometimes, when someone calls you an ass, its just because you are being an ass.
In a debate setting such as this one an insult is generally an ad hominem and even if an ad hom can be substantiated it is generally irrelevant to the subject under discussion. Ad hominem isn't frowned upon in debate just because it is impolite but also and more importantly because it is a common logical fallacy to offer an insult even though only relevant arguments will establish your position.
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@ronjs
Putting the question of whether or not people even have freewill aside for the moment are you saying that the behavior of humans is not accounted for in the plans of the god(s) you are proposing?
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@ronjs
So how people are influenced is not a part if the plans of the god(s) you are proposing?Satan is not capable of mucking up God's plans,but he can influence people
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@Snoopy
I mean a figure who is popularized to the general public by a perpetuation of a religion.Thanks for the thought. What do you mean by "a religious figure"
God is God, and I personally don't find YHWH offensive from non believers.
I appreciate that especially in light of the facy that it was once considered a capital offense but this in no way tells me how you have determined what is offensive to any given deity.
I don't mean disrespectful in a strictly empathetic manner.
Then in what manner did you mean it?
If you have a suggestion for me, I would be open to it.
In regards to what exactly?
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@Snoopy
The name of this thread. "YHWH" =/= Conservative Politics.Exactly!!
Yes exactly. The thread is specifically about a religious figure.
YHWH is referring to what the Jews and Christians call God, "I am that I am", The Creator, The Supreme Being, The Ultimate Reality, The Ruler of Creation as we know it.
Assuming such a being even exists what method have you used to determin what this hypothetical figure would or would not find disrespectful. Also in what way is referring to said being as a being, a creator and a ruler not referring to it as thpugh it were a creature?
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@Snoopy
The name of this thread. "YHWH" =/= Conservative Politics.There's no reason listed in this thread for you to start pivoting towards religion.
Threads placement. The religion forum.
I must conclude that you are reading a different thread than I am.
Its also disrespectful for you to address God as you would address creation as we know it, like a sort of creature.
What method have you used to determin what any given god(s) do or do not find disrespectful?
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@Snoopy
Or one could come to the conclusion that all worship is unnecessary entirely.
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@Snoopy
I'm not sure what you mean by worships man as a god but I have never been presented with sufficient evidence for any thay any actual god(s) exist to worship so that o my really leaves the inventions of men.
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@Snoopy
All ideologies have both positive and negative utility and what you consider positive or negative about it will depend greatly on your own point of view but if we are considering violence negative then an ideology promoting peace does not seem to be any guarantee that followers of the ideology will not cite the ideology as a justification for the violence.
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@Snoopy
For one, humans cannot be thought of as robots, and a morally inclined solution to such a problem is not going to be of a strictly rational basis.
This actually highlights what I am talking about. A rational understanding of any given ideology is irrelevant to the behaviors that can and are justified by that ideologues proponents.
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@Snoopy
I fail to see the difference between this and theThat's not necessarily so when you consider the societal aspect of how Muslims (real people) approach the problems they encounter.
societal aspect of how any people approach problems they encounter. The content of the belief would not seem to always inform the approach to problems used by the believer when using the belief as a justification for violence.
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@Stephen
a shared ideological kinship between Jews and Christians. This simply isn't true. There isn't any.
I am not discussing the ideology of either religion when I say that many Christians claim both that the old testament is an accurate historical document and that the Hebrews depicted in it were justified in there violent actions because of the Devine mandate of the same god they claim to worship.
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@Stephen
The Christian church, it cannot be denied has involved itself in wars believing god was on its side as do all religions.
In this we agree.
This does not mean they follow the direct instructions of their god
As an atheist I do not believe thay any human is following the direct instructions of any god(s). Even if they were that is irrelevant to the utility of belief. If beliefs can be used to justify violence then the actual content of said beliefs is beside the point.
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@Snoopy
I am examining the utility of belief which is separate from the content of belief.Are you sure you aren't conflating the teachings, with what people deem to be "good" and therefore worth fighting for?
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@Snoopy
Please define true christianity without committing a no true Scotsman fallacy.
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@Stephen
Irrelevent. The teachings (whether they encourage violence or not) do not prevent the violence but are rather used as a justification for the violence throughout history including in the history presented in the bible itself.Maybe but not on the instruction of the Christ
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@TheRealNihilist
Do tell me if I am asking to much
You are welcome to set your own standards which a claim must meet before you will believe (I might go so far as to say that you have no choice but to follow said standard) but asking others to live up to this standard before making claims may be a fools errand.
All you can do in such situations is withhold belief.
(Do tell me if) this is not need for him to substantiate his point.
I personally do not feel he has substantiated the claim that muslims are necessarily more dangerous than any other group of humans if that is what you are asking.
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@TheRealNihilist
Wpuld you perhaps give an example of the sort of statement you wouldlike to see in the future?
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@TheRealNihilist
the way he speaks about Muslims they would be doing violence acts regularly
Humans are regularly responsible for acts of violence. Some use religion to justify their actions some political ideologies some use racism others never bother trying to justify their actions at all.
If I understand your objection properly you do not so much mind him pointing out that humans are dangerous but only for failing to recognize the danger presented by non-muslim humans.
Would you say that us accurate?
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@TheRealNihilist
he has a dislike for foreigners
You asked specifically about foreigners not Muslims. His attitude toward an entire demographic of people may be suggestive of his opinions about foreigners or it may not.
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@TheRealNihilist
It would actually be extremely unfair to make assumptions about his beliefs rather than to simply ask him what he believes but his posts do seem to suggest to the casual observer that this is the case.
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@Stephen
Which even if true has not stopped christians throughout history from using violence as a conversion tool.There are no such instructions in Christianity.
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@Vader
That is not til next week for the REAL CHRISTIANS
I don't think much of the no true Scotsman argument.
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@TheRealNihilist
What is the difference between zombie Jesus day and Easter?
Brains
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@TheRealNihilist
Zombie Jesus day is today.
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@IlDiavolo
It's useless to explain the differences between microevolution and macroevolution
Useless indeed. Evolutionary biology, the science of genetics and paleontology do not even make a distinction between the two. There is just the process of evolution which has been independently confirmed by a number of unconnected individuals, scholastic organizations and scientific disciplines.
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@TheRealNihilist
How about the control one has in doing actions. When science has better answers philosophy can think of a better definition.
I remain unconvinced that we actually have control over our actions in the way you seem to be implying.
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@TheRealNihilist
Part of the problem in these discussions is how difficult it is to define and indeed our extremely poor understanding of how our brains go about coming to conclusions and implementing behaviors.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
The free descriptor is just a misnomer.
I agree whole heartedly. Calling will free is a misnomer.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Physics determines our actions in the way that the shape of the river bank determines the course of the water. I don't mean to imply agency.
As to proving we couldn't chiose differently that is like trying to prove that no god(s) exist. Freewill is un-falsifiable and I am unsure how to demonstrate it. I personally cannot maintain a belief in the absence of sufficient evidence or demonstration. We do however have agency (will as you put it) and that does clearly create a marked difference in behavior from say a rock or a photon. Of course I have no way of proving thay a rock or a photon do not have free will. The best I can say is that their behavior is not indicative of agency.
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@Goldtop
I simply see no difference between the physics that determine our ability to fly and the physics that determine our ability to "choose".
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@disgusted
That is my new strategy but I had to provoke some reportable behavior first.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I dont know. I haven't given it much thought other than that acceptance is in my opinion generally superior to division.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Um hi. In general I am against anything that divides people. That is my knee jerk reaction anyway.
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@Harikrish
Well if anyone wondered how I came to lose respect for you and decide that I do not like you your last comment should clear things up.
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@Harikrish
My reason is that I don't like you.
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@Snoopy
Just don't engage too seriously.
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@Snoopy
If you are referring to Harri I'm not too worried about him.
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@Harikrish
Good then maybe you will go away. Goodbye.You are not being very likeable yourself
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Can I make a choice? Then it's will.
You can make a determination. In any case this may be as close to agreement as we can get on this issue.
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@Harikrish
You are not being very transparent.
Probably because I don't like you and don't want to talk to you. Have a nice day though.
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