secularmerlin

You're shifting the goal posts/changing the subject by adding miraculous claims. Where did I even mention miraculous claims?

Each confirms a biblical claim via historical knowledge. The Bible lists a particular people and history confirms these people existed. 

Logically, two gods that contradict each other in what they state cannot both be true. The writings of all regions have contradictions so if God has revealed Himself and there are many religions claiming their god is true it cannot be so.

Then what exactly are you expressing?

You are being irrational. How can you see a Spiritual Being?

I have said many times that a non-Christian worldview can't make sense of the "why." It can't give a reasonable answer for the "why" of origins, existence, morality. It has to borrow from the Christian worldview to do so.  

That's odd I'm not sure I've ever heard a reasonable answer to any of those things. After all "some god(s) did it" does not answer any why it only appeals to a larger mystery.

Did the Bible claim

What about the archeological evidence? Does it confirm people, places, events that are stated in the Bible?

Do/did the tribes and nations spoken of in the Bible exist?

Basically, Animals have a soul, but no spirit, they were made by the word of God, just like everything else except for 1 thing.  Mankind. Man was made by God's own hands and had God's breath breathed into him and was made in his image.  God is a spirit. 

So it was not possible that animals who could not sin should take away sin from humans who chose to sin against the will of God. That's why a man had to be sacrificed, but not just any man, a sinless man.  That way, the lord could express his wrath on that body for the sake of all humanity so that they wouldn't be bounded by sin nor by the demand of justice regarding sin.   God before Christ winked at ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent of their sin.  Why? because back then all were guilty of sin and God would only roll back the sin a year with the yearly sacrifice. But now that sin is sacrificed for, there is no need for anyone to be ignorant or for just the jews to have the chance for salvation.

Fatalism simple refers to the destiny of the people, that it is predetermined, but it doesn't address the willful choices of the people to march into that destiny.

Destiny and meaningful choice are mutually exclusive. Destiny implies that one will suffer the same fate regardless of one's choices.

But you must, if you are to accept truth beyond your current perceptions. That is how we learn. Someone might have something you cannot yet perceive, that is a given in this world. 

Or you could try trusting in things which are scientifically and mathematically provable and remain sceptical of claims that cannot be independently authenticated.

Let's try a thought experiment. Let us imagine two universes. In one spirituality exists and many people claim to have had spiritual experiences while in the other there is no metaphysical component  only processes governed my the physical workings of the universe itself and many people claim to have had spiritual experiences.

Now if you had to take the Pepsi challenge with these two universes how would you know which universe you were in without a way of authenticating spiritual Claims? Worse still let's say you only get to experience one if them and guess which one you were in.

why can't he just say "eh, forget about it"?

Abusers often ask their victims "Why do you make me hurt you?"

Truth exists apart from perceptions, if you are not willing to part with those perceptions

True indeed, even if the prophesy were 1000% accurate, the argument then seems to be "so then God is real." There's a lot of real estate between the two. 

gods are contradictory thus only one is logically justified

Please explain your logic.

What makes you think that holding up two plus two fingers is not expressing a mathematical concept?

If I hold up two fingers and two fingers and you cime to the conclusion that 2 + 2 = 4 then I am not the one using mathematical concepts you are. If you are using mathematical concepts yourself then hopefully youbwould see the logic of conceding that math exists at least intellectually. Of course if you do not understand mathematical concepts I may be unable to prove it to you with or without mathematical concepts. 

The bottom line is I don't care what it says in your book I want to see god(s') fingers.

Okay then, what do you think explains why we are here if neither God nor chance happenstance is responsible?

the Bible claims

Claims are not evidence they require evidence. Hopefully this clears up why some of is do not accept your claim.

This just goes to prove you skimmed past the rest of my post in which I said that the claims are backed up by historical EVIDENCE. Historical evidence collaborates with biblical claims. 

I went back and reread your post just to be certain. I do not actually see any citation of any kind that would support your claims. Also history is riddled with exaggerations and apocryphal tales so I would very much prefer archeological or geological evidence to historical evidence.

Why don't we just cut to the heart of it then. How do people determine morality without god(s)?

That is why I questioned weather this was a religious question and is it in the correct forum.

You may question what you like but you have brought a quote from a separate thread so I'm not sure it has anything to do with where this thread belongs.

Any supporters of Jesus clearly feel that in at least one instance punishing someone for a crime he did not commit was both moral and necessary.

Remind me, which one?

no, it was mercy. Mercy pardons and is freely given, whereas justice is strict and is demanded of all. 

Mercy and pardons both involve excusing punishment not punnishing the wrong person. When a governor pardons a criminal he dies not serve the criminals sentence in the criminals place. It was a sacrifice.

 No, not necessarily. Universals, for instance, are categorically unobservable.

If you are claiming this can also apply to beings I'm afraid I must disagree. 

Yes, by design. Immaterial things can not be observed...

If you can observe it, then it's not a necessary being or a transcendent being anymore. 

Then you can never prove the existence of such a being. Period.

If I asked you to demonstrate that 2+2=4 and do not use any mathematical concept do you think that would be reasonable? 

I don't know if it's reasonable but I would hold up two fingers and two fingers and let you do the rest. That is what a demonstration is. If you could kindly just have your god(s) hold up some fingers we could clear all this up in short order I'm sure unless of course the god(s) in question are unobservable in which case we at be at an impasee.

If I asked you to demonstrate that 2+2=4 and do not use any mathematical concept do you think that would be reasonable? 

I don't know if it's reasonable but I would hold up two fingers and two fingers and let you do the rest. That is what a demonstration is. If you could kindly just have your god(s) hold up some fingers we could clear all this up in short order I'm sure unless of course the god(s) in question are unobservable in which case we at be at an impasee.

Would you agree that there are two logical views of existence, either we are created or we are here by chance happenstance? 

No I would not.

the Bible claims

which you brought up by denying authority in interpretation

No sir I did not. You brought it up by making yet another claim. This one about authority. You have offered no evidence of that either.

Nonetheless, if you wish to talk about the truth of the Quran & Islamic morality, then I shall surely oblige. 

All you provided was a claim and a definition.

- And? Where is the objection?

It's not like a normal mundane plate of spaghetti that would be ridiculous. This is an all powerful universe creating plate of spagetti.

- No such thing. It's material, it's contingent, it's temporal, it's a body... It can not possibly be any of those divine aforementioned things. 

this isn't about "true or false"

If you have an actual objection to my demonstration, then do establish it, otherwise dismissed.

This is a spiritual and transcendent plate of spaghetti. You just have to interpret the definition properly.

- No. Transcendent =/= material. These terms have precise definition & meanings, you need to stop conflating these terms.

Yes that's right. It's not a physical plate of spaghetti it's a transcendent one. A spirit of the perfect spaghetti in whose image all other spaghetti is made.

It's not like a normal mundane plate of spaghetti that would be ridiculous. This is an all powerful universe creating plate of spagetti.

- No such thing

Prove it.

As far the as American morality & American Law is concerned, it (The us constitution) IS the reference of Good & Bad.

Only if done authoritatively. Regardless, this is irrelevant to authority in interpretation, which is our subject. 

Wrong. "Authority is, therefore it's true" = appeal to authority. "Authority is, therefore it's authoritative/binding/valuable" = defeasible reasoning, which is the basis of all things axiology (ethics, aesthetics, politics & law). All Law is "appeal to authority".

Again, that's irrelevant to authority. As far as Muslim ethics & law are concerned, what the Quran says is authoritative ; the same way the US Constitution is authoritative for every American citizen, regardless of its "accuracy".

Nope. If you don't understand something, better leave it.

How do you know who's right to interpret the US Constitution?

The claim is not the evidence so it must be something that we could independently verify even if the quran did not exist.

- Is there a logic to this contention? 

Authority over the interpretation of the Quran must be dictated by the Quran itself by lead of the Prophet (pbuh), the sole source of authority in Islam.

Some test for god(s) that would come back positive or negative when applied to this universe. Now if we simply grant the existence of some necessary being your work is still ahead of you connecting whatever this thing is to your particular flavor of belief.

- This is completely off topic. But sure, what's your question?

I mean sure  God choose me to pass out these REAL important messages and all....... 

BUT other then that,  im toats norm. 

Just because i know how to positively get to heaven doesn't make me better then you lot. 

It doesn't. 

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Ok I've gone to far hey ?

Well

It's strange that gods and prophs don't do these  anymore. 

It went from showing heaps to none. 

Picture god leaving a bunch of  i want this done like that stuff these days. With Writing being pretty popular now and all.  

Imagine God dropping a few skripts / bible versus off to like Eric or Frank,   What would they do ? 

Imagine all the stuff god has told / gave people but they weren't put into the bible because " They " didn't believe them. 

An actual giant plate of spaghetti is strictly none of those things.

This is a spiritual and transcendent plate of spaghetti. You just have to interpret the definition properly.

the US Constitution

Is not intrinsically good or bad. It can have utility and its wording can be used to justify inhumane acts. This is also true of the quran.

There is such a thing as authority in interpretation & scholarship & religion. 

Scripture is the source of authority for religious morality or rationality or spirituality

Protestantism took authority away from Catholicism (probably for good reason), as did Salafism -illegitimately- take it away from the classical traditional schools.