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@Deb-8-a-bull
I am not a twin so far as I know.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Illegal is decided upon by consensus. If a law is counter to the stated goals of a nation (like liberty for all persons) then either the law must be changed or the stated goal must change. With liberty and justice to all (where all = exclusively our citizens). I turn away your poor your tired and your hungry. I am appalled by your huddled masses. Let them yearn for freedom someplace else. I don't know maybe I'm being overdramatic but I am in general not in favor of tribalism and accepting all humans equally is generally beneficial to societal wellbeing.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Good job deb you did your best hey? So next time right? My thread or yours?
Or could we deb... I mean could we meet on a chance thread perchance?
Good game. I always enjoy your posts when you play through.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Is representative democracy worth preserving? If so in what way is it diminished when more people are included in the system? Isn't a larger group of voters more representative of the total populace? We are a nation of immigrants. Why should someone's original nationality matter to us? Making them citizens would also generate tax revenue. Imagine if instead of paying to keep someone out they were paying us to stay in.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
That sounds very like a conspiracy theory.
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@ludofl3x
Why do you believe what you believe?THis one really depends on the specific proposition it refers to.
Since this is a religion thread shy not start with why you do not maintain a belief in any god(s).
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@ludofl3x
What is your world-view?Relative to what?
Reletive to reality as it is, or at least how you perceive it.
How did the universe come into existence?Apparently via big bang cosmology, that's the current model supported by data.
I'm sorry but does the data support that or does the data merely support that the big bang is the earliest event we have direct evidence of?
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@TwoMan
Depending on how you define human agency I wouldn't say I don't believe in it. There is a difference between a human walking down a hill and a rock rolling down a hill. That does not mean however that you could choose not to walk down the hill if that is what your circumstances dictate. My putlook is niether pessimistic nor optimistic. It is epistemologically honest.
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@keithprosser
Whom is arguing that we are here by chance happenstance?
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@Alec
Ok then let's begin. Is justice or revenge more important to your reasoning in supporting the death penalty.
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@TwoMan
Can you demonstrate the ability to choose differently than you actually do choose? What do you mean by unimpeded? Do your preferences not impede you from choosing against your preferences? Do laws and social standards not impede you from choosing in accordance with your preferences? I'm afraid until an unimpeded choice that did not have to be made can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt I just have no reason to believe that the phenomenon as you define it is a part of our shared reality.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
All nations fall. In any case if representative democracy is a superior system then you should support including more people in that system and if representative democracy is not a superior system you should not be troubled one way or the other.
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@Alec
My intention is to ask you a series of questions to see if your goals align with your reasoning. If you agree to the process that is.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Perhaps we could consider comprehensive immigration law reform.
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@keithprosser
This actually only tells us something important about the beliefs of the writers of Star Trek on the subject of self.Seriously, I think this tell us something very important about the nature of self.
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@oromagi
Indeed fire up the McGuffin device. That will solve everything.
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@TwoMan
I have not said that humans do not make (deterministic) decisions. My claim is not that you have no will just that there is no reason to consider this will free.
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@Stephen
Let us assume paradise does exist. I would still possit that the purpose is to act a carrot for the faithful. What happens once your there may still be immaterial.
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@mustardness
It doesn't matter who said it. Arguments stand or fall on their own wouldn't you agree ?
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@keithprosser
Can you do something that can be conclusively proven not to be deterministic? Can you find a way to distinguish this action from a random event? I'm not certain this would demonstrate freewill but it would be a start.
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@Alec
1 and 3 upon closer examination would seem to be the same reason but that still leaves us with three reasons to examine. Would you mind if we use the Socratic method to see if your goals align with your reasoning?
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@mustardness
That may be the clearest post I've ever gotten from this account. Who are you and what have you done with the real ebuc?
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@keithprosser
[I]t is impossible to create an identical copy of a quantum state without destroying the original – in fact, you HAVE to destroy the original arrangement in order to extract all the necessary information from it to construct the new, teleported, state.
Quoted from my source material.
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@Stephen
I have no reason to believe amyone does get to paradise. The point therefore must be derived from the (possibly empty) promise itself.
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@keithprosser
Thank you for the correction Keith. That is a better distinction and you are right it is more a semantics distinction than a subjectivity distinction. PGA and I might differ on our standards of measure of what is good/morally right/virtuous but we tend to mean the same thing and that is what actions we should take/avoid if we want to uphold our individual personal standard. On many points our morality likely aligns due to the prevailing morality of our society. For example I would wager we both would generally agree that killing and slavery are immoral but might not agree (citation needed) on whether the activities of consenting adults in private can be immoral. I'm glad I have you here to keep me honest Keith
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So here's the thing. If there is no cloning for the reasons in the above article and if the transporters can make duplicates of our favorite Starfleet officers as shown in the below article
Then all your favorite star trek characters were dead right away. First episode you gotta assume they have already been disintegrated by a disintegration box and replaced with a clone by an clone making box at least a few times by then.
What are your thoughts?
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@Greyparrot
Whatever ends up coming of it thank you for the conversation.
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For ease of reference here is the entire sonnet
The New Collosus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
-Emma Lazarus (1849–1887)
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@Greyparrot
I will admit that I am rather uninterested in the remarks of the President as he is not the expert in this situation. It is rather a shame if there is only one source of the full 28 minutes but do are minutes from the pressconference really unavailable to the public?
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@Greyparrot
Well yeah i'm no expert on border security either. Did you listen at the press conference this week what the border patrol officials were asking for? Trump has said this week that he isn't going to build a wall if the border patrol thinks something else is more effective like slatted steel beams.Don't you want people in power like the President and the Congress to listen to the border patrol officials? i think it's in the best interest of the country to listen to these people instead of pretending to know what works and what does not work.
Listening to those who actually have experience in performing the job of border security does seem sensible if our goal is to prevent illegal border crossing. Do you perchance have a link to the press conference in question?
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... to suggest that our immigration laws should reflect the words displayed at the foot of the statue of liberty?
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@Analgesic.Spectre @Greyparrot
I admit that I am neither an immigration specialist nor a border patrol officer but a large expensive wall with dubious efficacy seems a huge waste of money and manpower if we should in fact be trying to stop immigration rather than reforming immigration law.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
People do not as a rule sneak into the country on foot or by camelback they come via internal combustion vehicles.Citation needed.
Does this require verification? The vast majority of people traveling any significant distance travel by internal combustion vehicles.
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but the wall is an important puzzle piece.
Not if it has virtually no chance of stopping immigrants (legal or otherwise)
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@Analgesic.Spectre
People do not as a rule sneak into the country on foot or by camel back. They come in internal combustion vehicles. Seagoing vessels and aircraft will not be hindered by a wall in any way and the vast majority of land vehicles are commercial grade automotive vehicles (and therefore restricted to relatively well maintained roads) a which must go through the customs checkpoints located on all thoroughfares into the country. A (mostly) unmanned wall stands virtually no chance of changing the immigrant population (legal or otherwise) to a significant percentage. 5% is in my opinion a gross overstatement of its probable effect.
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@Greyparrot
Won't making legal immigration more problematic only encourage people to overstay their visa rather than trying to reenter the country? I submit to you that border security will have a direct inverse effect on the number of immigrants that follow legal channels. There is no point in discussing the economic social or political ramifications of funding and executing a huge impractical and exorbitantly expensive security measure that lacks efficacy.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
A large percentage of illegal immigrants arrive to the country by airport or sea port and simply overstay their visa. www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/ there is no point in discussing the economic social or political ramifications of building a huge impractical and exorbitantly expensive structure if said structure lacks efficacy.
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@Alec
I support the death penalty for murder. If anyone wants to change my mind they are allowed to try.
Before I could.change your mind, assuming that was even my goal, I would first have to understand why you support the killing of a human being in response to the killing of a.human being in the first place.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Both legal and illegal immigrants are human beings and human beings tend to.use vehicles as their primary means of transport. Vehicles like planes and boats. Most immigration (legal or illegal) will be completely unaffected by any wall fence ditch or moat we decide to construct.
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@PGA2.0
I do not believe something purely physical that lacks consciousness is good or bad because it lacks intent.
That depends greatly on how you are using these very subjective terms. Example: a knife without a blade is a bad knife or any landing you can walk away from is a good one.
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@Tradesecret
According to Blackstone, murder, theft, perjury, etc.But I would add civil laws relating to negligence when people violate people's home during the night verse how they do so at day time. The laws are essentially taken directly from the OT.
Strictures against murder and theft appear in legal systems thay predate Judaism. Where did the Summerians and Mesopotamians get the idea? Perhaps you should examine the idea that old testament law is based on other older penal codes reworked to fit the (secular and spiritual) beliefs of the Hebrew people.
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@PGA2.0
The Christian God can be described and made sense of in regards to what He has revealed of Himself to humanity through His Spirit and Word, and by what He has made, the creation. the Judea-Christian God has interacted with His creation and created beings. Thus, He is a specific and personal God, not just any deity.
Can these things not also be said of the flying spaghetti monster?
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@PGA2.0
I like the atheist reason of a random chance universe coming into existence for who knows what as not magical.I also like that the atheistic understanding (since they don't know) lacks what is necessary for certainty in knowing how it works or why it exists (i.e., it just is) yet they rule out the Christian God.Basically, atheism answers nothing nor has the means for making it clear why the universe is here. It all starts from particular assumed starting points but can't make sense of why the universe is here.
Argument from increadulity (I can think of no other explanation therefore mine must be correct).
Also straw man fallacy (creating an flawed argument for the opposition for the express purpose of knocking it down).
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@PGA2.0
How have you determined what any god(s) are or are not contingent on?
Indeed regardless which god(s) you subscribe too it would seem that the vast majority of god(s) are contingent on the humans that dreamt them up.
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@PGA2.0
I notice that swarm predictions require no interpretation(read room for error) they simply state a result and poof 94% accurate.
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@Fallaneze
So is there any difference between the way humans make decisions and the way robots or computers make decisions?
Without a better understanding of how humans make decisions I cannot make an informed evaluation. Was there a specific difference that you wished to point out (and can demonstrate)?
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@keithprosser
Often during the 'um...' period I am not sure what I am doing
Do you ever know what you are doing durring this period that you can recall?
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@Fallaneze
I assume you mean between the way I feel and the way a computer feels? Or are we no longer discussing the feeling of freewill/nonfreewill?
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