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@disgusted
It would seem that this is not after all a tangent.
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@disgusted
If converting to another religion (buhdist to christian) is a choice then clearly not converting is alsp a choice.
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@disgusted
Would you then say that a buhdist born in a buhdists region that converts to christianity has also made a choice?
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@keithprosser
Your right there is no correct answer. On an individual level the chances of survival remain one third but in cases 1 and 3 there is a better chance of saving some. I believe Spock would therefore choose 1 and 3 concluding that it is logical to guarantee the survival of some. Of course that doesn't make it right.
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@disgusted
And did you choose to reject them or were they simply inadequate? Castin is right your beliefs are no more your choice than a Christian or a Toaist. They are entirely a product of your personal circumstances.Making claims regarding religious geographical beliefs is the point I'm making, atheism is not a religion. I can only speak for myself but my atheism is a result of examining and rejecting the claims of godism. All godism.
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@PGA2.0
It's always good to gave some common ground. You agree then that a person's sexuality is not a choice?On what auspicious date did you choose to be heterosexual?It is the way I am wired/designed.
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@PGA2.0
That is literally what a presuposition is.You admitted you have to presuppose this knowledge in order to confirm it.No, that is my starting point.
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@PGA2.0
My job is to prove it is reasonable as opposed to other worldviews.
This is incorrect. Each position stands on its own merits. Even if all other worldviews are completely unreasonable yours would still be only as reasonable as it is.
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@keithprosser
You may do as you like. I was merely answering your question.
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@keithprosser
There are both agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. Atbeism/theism is concerned only with belief while gnosticism/agnosticism is concerned with knowledge (or at least the claim of knowledge) agnosticism is actually unconnected with atheism. Beside the point if you will.
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@crossed
Evolution up to and including speciation has been observed in laboratory conditions.
If some god(s) exist and if any god(s) are responsible for the various adaptations of organisms then clearly evolution is the mechanism by which this was accomplished. Evolution is an observable fact.
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@Wylted
I'm not much for worship in general so I'm going to go with no no he should not. Now what ?
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@keithprosser
Has trade secret not made it clear that he does not believe in evil as a noun. Though of course if I am incorrect about that he is more than welcome to set the record straight. I dont think either of us is reffering to evil as a noun at all at this point.
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@Tradesecret
Ok and do you believe that god.wants evil things to happen?
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@Wylted
Then I urge you to seek the help of a professional.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
(Assuming that holding true beliefs is valued)
Everyone thinks they hold true beliefs. I paradoxically both believe that everything I believe to be true is true and simultaneously believe that at least one thing I believe to be true must be false. What I value is the scientific method as the most reliable method of separating fact from falsehood. Provided of course that our observations accurately reflect reality.
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@keithprosser
I appreciate you waiving your usual fee.
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@Wylted
I am not talking about multiple personality disorder I am talking about dissociative identity disorder.
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@keithprosser
While I appreciate your help I am asking trade secret.
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@Tradesecret
Do you believe that evil exists?
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@EtrnlVw
When I ask you how you have determined all this to be the case (because without some explanation of your process this is all bald assertion) you will almost certainly reply that it is in large part from the examination of personal testimony which I do not accept as sufficient evidence. You will then very likely say that more testimonial evidence for the spiritual than for any other thing (which even if true is an appeal to popularity). If I am incorrect about your probable answers I apologize but if I am correct I don't feel there is much reason for you to reply unless you have something to add that we have not already discussed.
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@Wylted
Have you ever heard of dissociative identity disorders?
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@keithprosser
Which, if true, is not inconsistent with the view that beliefs are not a choice.
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@EtrnlVw
What evidence have you ever provided for the existence of any spirit/soul that is testable and repeatable in laboratory conditions? I understand that your threshold of credulity is lower than mine but you cannot pretend either that I have not been up front about what I consider sufficient evidence or that you have ever met this standard. Understand that this is not meant as an inflammatory statement of any kind it is simply the truth.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It is only a reliable method if my experiences are "real" and I can think of no mechanism for test8ng this proposition. It is the best avenue available to me but that is not necessarily the same as being reliable.
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@keithprosser
Perhaps you are right but my experience is what has made me the sort of person that thinks over a proposition before accepting it. Unless I somehow chose to have those experiences then it hardly matters.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That does answer the question, certainly. It seems that essentially you are saying that your reasoning which you use to conclude that free will does not exist is guided by examining the evidence avaliable to you and forming conclusions based on that.
Yes.
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@Tradesecret
The argument is actually best presented as a series of questions because what I believe is unimportant to the premise if we are discussing what you believe. The argument is designed to see if there are any logical flaws in your reasoning.
Do you believe that evil exists?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Ah I see our miscommunication then. I am not sure I simply have no reason to believe. I am unable to imagine any event or information that would make me more sure in either direction however if that satisfies the question.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes I have told you why I do not believe in free will. You seemed unsatisfied with my answer. Was I mistaken in that regard?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I must apologize. You wanted to talk about what I believe and we ended up talking about what I do not believe instead.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I have direct observable evidence of cause and effect. Cause and effect is not in dispute. If freewill exists it exists alongside cause and effect. I have no evidence that freewill exists or that a universe built on cause and effect would necessitate freewill. The effect (our beliefs) arise from the cause (our observations colored by our personal bias).
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My lack of belief is based on the lack of evidence. The universe gets on just fine without freewill. Occam's razor demands that if we already have an observable explanation for an event (say cause and effect) that we dismiss any extraneous and unprovable explanation (such as freewill). If freewill does not exist then we would expect to see no evidence whatever and that is precisely what we see.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That freewill cannot be falsified is one reason I do not believe in it. For the same reason, amongst others, I do not believe in unicorns, chupakabras, sasquatches or god(s).
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am uncertain what form such evidence would take. It especially complicates the problem that I almost certainly would have experienced/observed this evidence through exactly the kind of circumstance that has already informed my belief that circumstances form beliefs.
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@EtrnlVw
You have had a near death experience?I'm not an authority but I definitely can speak from experience
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@EtrnlVw
Not to quibble but don't you mean you study the secondhand testimonial/anecdotal evidence provided by those who claim to have had such an experience?I study NDE's.
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@3RU7AL
Unfortunately testimony is anecdotal evidence and anecdotal evidence is insufficient to claim knowledge.
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@EtrnlVw
No comedy meant. Do you have a citation to share?Is this supposed to be funny? if not, then we have a long way to go.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Perhaps there are other factors but these are the primary contributors and any other factor would perforce be affected by these two.
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@EtrnlVw
Theory- a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something,
This is not how the word is used in scientific endeavours. Please do not conflate your personal "theories" with scientific theory.
Let me know if you have any questions or wish to discuss something.
My first question is what makes you an authority on NDEs? To my knowledge there is no real laboratory data on the phenomena.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'm sure whether I can think of any one could argue that others exist. However since we know of at least enough factors not under our control exist to form beliefs the bop would still be on the one claiming some factor would result in choosing one's beliefs rather than coming to one's beliefs as a product of one's circumstance.
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@EtrnlVw
You use the word theory when you clearly mean hypothesis (or more likely conjecture). I don't know what you mean by energy acting as intelligent. NDEs are impossible to observe except to the one experiencing them and we cannot confirm or deny them as humans without the observations of an organic brain i.e. the person who supposedly had the nde telling us about their experience.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It's quite simple really. Beliefs are a direct result of our observations colored by our personal bias. Since we neither choose what exists to be observed nor the bias we accrue durring our formative years our beliefs are the direct result of factors beyond our control. This being the case saying that beliefs are a choice is a nonsequiter at best and completely nonsensical at worst.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Because my observations leave me no choice but to believe.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Ok then how about this.
I do not believe that beliefs are a choice.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Im sorry but certainty about almost anything may be beyond human epistemology. Was there some particular kind of beliefs you wish to discuss? What do you believe?
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