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thett3

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Why are so many resilient to fact-based truth regarding black criminality?
have you considered running those same statistics specifically for "economic status" ?…Indeed. "Fact-based truth" should include all relevabt facts and not just those which confirm a preferred conclusion.
Fortunately studies have directly compared crime rates by race within economic brackets, and the results make it clear that wealth is not the only thing going on. This was the first article I could find but it’s a finding that’s been replicated multiple times:

“They found that wealthy Black kids were more likely to go to prison than poor white kids. While about 2.7 percent of the poorest white youth ended up in prison, 10 percent of affluent Black youths ultimately went to prison.

The incarceration rate for African Americans in the highest wealth bracket – 2.4 percent – was only slightly less than that for the poorest whites.”


And as fashionable as it is to attribute all disparities to racism, that simply isn’t a credible explanation when the disparity is that large. The crimes people are going away for are crimes that were actually committed, and there aren’t hundreds of thousands of assaults, robberies, or rapes committed by white youth that go unprosecuted. Black people really do commit crimes at highly elevated rates—often 10x as high as whites or hispanics—and the victims are overwhelmingly innocent black people. 

It doesn’t have to be this way. But pretending that these facts aren’t true is no way to go about fixing it
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Why are so many resilient to fact-based truth regarding black criminality?
Liberals fell into unrequited love with black people starting in the 60s, and it’s only intensified since. At the same time they’ve gotten incredibly censorious so facts that hurt the group they all but worship cannot be allowed. That’s why Emmitt Till is a household name, but the facts you mention are heavily suppressed. As if the brutal murder of a teen who sexually harassed a woman seventy years ago is somehow more relevant to peoples day to day lives than the truly mind boggling crime differentials in the current year, such as the average black person being 45-50x more likely to attack a white person than vice versa, or black women having a higher homicide rate than white men. 

I hate the “dems r the real racists” stuff but it does actually disgust me how libs implicitly deny agency to black people. The minority of black people who commit most of the crime can, and should, do better. 13/50 (closer to 12/60 now) is not acceptable and we shouldn’t have to pretend like black people murdering (mostly) eachother is whiteys fault 
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January 6th Hearings
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@ILikePie5
I also agree that if the election were held today Trump would probably win, but we don’t know what the future holds. The economy and inflation could get worse from here in which case the dems would be in deep trouble but it could also get better in which case Biden, or a more competent dem nominee, would have a strong chance of winning especially against Trump. Picking the guy who could probably scrape a win at his opponents lowest point isn’t a recipe for success and would at the very least leave lots of house and senate seats on the table. And really his inability to just take his lumps wasn’t acceptable. Idk what else to tell you. I was a massive Trump shill for years but you have to face the fact that he’s a complete manchild after a while
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January 6th Hearings
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@ILikePie5
I disagree. If anything I’ve seen more and more people realize that Trump may have been an asshole but he was great for their finances and the economy. At the end of day, feeding your family and being able to afford gas is what matters.

Remember when Trump said gas would 5,6,7 dollars. Even I thought he was exaggerating. Turns out he was was right. Democrats are a disaster for the economy. A rematch today would have Trump regain GA, WI, MI, AZ, and gain NV
Trump had better policies than Biden but his platform doesn’t seem all that different from a more mainstream GOP politician, especially now that he destroyed the old “Bush” establishment. I would rather have someone like Ron DeSantis or Glenn Youngkin without Trumps baggage being the nominee and I think a lot of people are starting to feel that same way.

I mean why want a standard bearer who is so easy to attack, can only serve one term, has alienated millions of people who would be open to voting Republican or not voting at all if there was a different nominee…Trump really wasn’t a very effective president and his finishing move being to incite his most fervent (and gullible) supporters into a riot that resulted in a lot of them having their lives destroyed/severely damaged because he couldn’t take an L…I want someone else.  Him becoming President again would be extremely funny so I’ll grant that 
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January 6th Hearings
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@ILikePie5
To the contrary. The Midwest will likely have GOP Governors and GOP legislatures for the most part to pass election integrity legislation. Democrat Governors won’t be able to change the rules this time to benefit themselves
I think his chances of winning if he became the nominee have gone up as his social media bans have forced him to be quiet and Biden’s presidency continues to be a disaster…but I think his odds of winning the nomination have dropped drastically in the last six months or so 
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January 6th Hearings
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@Greyparrot
I think he has around a 55-60% chance of becoming president again although it’s dropping imo
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January 6th Hearings
Trump really is such a baby. Between this and his horrible personnel management the first time around, who would even want to work with him during his second term (which I have resigned myself to assuming is happening.) If he had just conceded gracefully he would have like an 80%+ chance of coming back imo instead he incited his most gullible supporters into a riot 
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The Biden Border Crisis
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@Double_R
You talk about the surge starting in the late 2010's, which is exactly when Trump put all of this under a global spotlight. I'm not sure how you conclude anything other than his rhetoric having a significant impact on creating the problem you are crediting him with fixing.
Come on dude. Be honest with me. I am always honest with you. What I've said is that in the mid 2010s people discovered the giant loophole in American asylum law. There was NOT a spike starting in the 2010s other than one in late 2018-mid 2019 that Trump's policies put a stop to. There was also a similar but much much smaller crisis of unaccompanied minors that Obama put a stop to in 2015. The numbers are unbelievably striking and they have only gotten worse since https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/13/migrant-encounters-at-u-s-mexico-border-are-at-a-21-year-high/

Illegal entries have been higher than the highest month under Trump EVERY SINGLE MONTH under Biden! 

But beyond that, people do not abandon the only place they've ever known as their home to trek across an entire country in order to *attempt* to get into a country completely foreign to them just because our policies are more lenient than they were before. They do it because their situation is dire, so if you really want to know why the numbers are so bad you should start by looking at that.
Yes they do. I'm baffled that you would even make a statement like this--obviously people respond to incentives. Right now under Biden the incentive to illegally migrate is much much stronger because in the majority of cases, his administration releases any given illegal alien into the country without a court date or any type of tracking, and the odds of them actually being deported are extremely low. 




So yes if Biden's policies were more inhumane like the former president i'm sure that would make an impact, but to act like his policies are the cause of it I think ignores the bigger picture.
You haven't answered the second part of the question: is sitting around and doing absolutely nothing for a year and a half acceptable leadership to you? 
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A hypothesis on the nature of politics
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@Bones
You are actually conforming to the very archetype which I condemn in the post. The very fact that you say "shouldn't have gone out larping" is merely to proselytize your political agenda to others. The debate about Rittenhouse isn't whether he should have "gone out larping", it is "was Rittenhouse in the right when he fired at addressing protesters". The only reason this whole "larping" thing has come out is because those who believed Rittenhouse was wrong (a belief which I argue as one based on ridiculing their opposition and furthering their own position) have realised that they were terribly mistaken and thus, in an attempt to salvage dignity, argue that he is still in the wrong for "larping". You would never tell someone who gets viciously raped in front of their children that they "shouldn't have been larping", because the elephant in the room is the rapist. Yet in the world of politics, we go to such disgusting lengths to preserve the integrity of our ideology. 

Great catch. One of the more depressing aspects of politics is that many people (on any side) struggle to disassociate even with the worst members of their group. The people Rittenhouse killed were all videotaped from multiple angles attacking him as he retreated. As a legal issue it's not something rational minds can disagree on, and the fact that it was brought to trial at all was a travesty. And no blame is assigned to the protestors for "larping." 

The right does this too, see how people would defend of downplay all of Trump's unacceptable behavior...I was guilty of this myself. It's hard to disassociate and realize that you aren't personally responsible for everything done by members of your "side" so you dont have to be a defense attorney for it, and you don't have to have strong opinions on things you don't understand either
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A hypothesis on the nature of politics
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@Bones
This is pretty much where I have landed as well, with the caveat that some of the policy positions different groups hold come from different values as opposed to just wanting to pwn the other side. After all, there have to be some actual differences or the groups wouldn't exist to begin with. As an example, progressives often criticize pro-life people for also being less likely than average to support things like increased welfare spending, universal healthcare, etc. But their opposition to these things comes from the same impulse that causes them to be pro-life in the first place. Those people tend to believe more in an internal locus of control, right or wrong their beliefs would generally be that pregnancy isn't something that just happens, and lifelong poverty isn't something that just happens, but that these are the result of choices people made that they need to take responsibility for. Immigration as an issue is one most prone to cynical lies to cover up the real reason people are in favor/opposed to it, and the vaccine mandate existed solely as an attempt to punish vaccine skeptics who were disproportionately right leaning (bc vaccine hesitancy worldwide was basically a proxy for "do I distrust the current government?"), but not all issues are that way.

What I am still trying to grapple with is just what causes political affiliation in the first place. I'm leaning heavily towards it being basically an inherent facet of personality that's with someone either from birth or at least by the time childhood is over. Depressing but I think that's where the evidence lies.
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The Biden Border Crisis
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@Ramshutu
@Double_R
It has now been six months since we last spoke on this issue, and we have five more months of abysmal data. Every single month since his second full month in August the number of illegal aliens crossing the border has been higher than the highest month under Trump, which resulted in policy changes that caused the crisis to swiftly abate. Yes, around 40-50% of migrants are being turned away due to title 42 (something that Biden has tried and failed to end) but these numbers plus hundreds of thousands of "gotaways" still result in several million people being added to the American population explicitly against the consent of the governed. There has been far more illegal immigration under Biden than there have been immigrants who followed the law.

Do you still contend that Biden's policies have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this? Do you think sitting around and failing to solve the crisis for a year and a half now is an acceptable response?


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Who is the BesT debater in this cite.
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@RationalMadman
Me, whiteflame, blamonkey, Barney, ramshutu, oromagi, bones, misterchris, you, benjamin, wylted if he actually tryhards and a few others.
I never officially debated him but we had lots of private informal debates in PMs. There weren’t any judges but I definitely felt like he was mopping the floor with me most of the time 
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Who is the BesT debater in this cite.
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@RationalMadman
Who on dart do you think could beat bluesteel?
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Who is the BesT debater in this cite.
The best debaters on DDO in the last few years were easily: 

1) bluesteel 

*sizable gap*

2) Raisor 
3) whiteflame 

Whiteflame is the only one on DART and I haven’t seen anyone else here that would be comparable to him so I would say whiteflame is the best 
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Supreme Court has overturned Roe V Wade
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@FLRW
Well, at least this new ruling will create a lot of jobs for illegal aliens.
 The Cato Institute has reported some implausible numbers, such as that over 42000 physicians in the United States are illegal aliens.
Every day I grow more convinced that this account is some kind of chat bot, and it’s finally breaking down 
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Supreme Court has overturned Roe V Wade
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@RationalMadman
Why exactly does it matter if it is not mentioned in the rights that what? Seven seriously privileged men at the time put together based on their morality at the time; hardly the pinnacle of idol to follow or adhere to the whims of.

I can understand the pro-life perspective, I cannot understand blind constitutionalism to the point it's like a religion.
Roe v Wade and the mentality behind it—that justices can just “put together” a new right based on their morality is an assault upon the very foundation of American government. There’s a constitutionally approved method of protecting the right to abortion in all fifty states, and that’s passing legislation. There’s a way to make abortion a constitutionally protected right and that’s by passing an amendment. If that sounds hard, too bad. Win more elections. The public is much more in favor of wanting abortion legal for any reason in the first trimester than it is a total ban, so make the case. Just making up that there’s a constitutional right to abortion when clearly no such right exists is asinine. 

The constitution is important not only because it’s the contract that every official swears before God that they’ll uphold and defend but because it’s the rule we all have to play by. Those justices that decided Roe v Wade broke the rules. You have too many decisions like that and the entire system can’t survive. 
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Supreme Court has overturned Roe V Wade
While it didn’t seem obvious at the time, fifty years is after all a long time, it was inevitable that eventually there would be a majority on the Supreme Court that respected the law and the constitution, which clearly is silent on abortion. Live by the judiciary die by the judiciary basically 
I can't imagine how pro-life people felt at the time. Abortion wasn't nearly the polarized and hot button issue it is today back then but Roe was so unbelievably inappropriate and such transparent legislating from the bench...it had to have felt awful. 

Fortunately now we have such reliable and widely available methods of contraception that abortion has been rendered obsolete by technology if people are willing to take even the most basic level of care. Hopefully many of the babies that otherwise would have been aborted are never conceived to begin with as people recognize unprotected sex with a non committed partner as the extremely risky behavior it is and change their behavior to match
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Supreme Court has overturned Roe V Wade
A good lesson in not flying too close to the sun. If liberals in the 60s and 70s had pushed a law permitting abortions nationwide in the first trimester and banning them after that, the standard that’s the law of the land in most developed countries, that would be the law of the land today. But doing so would’ve taken political capital and wouldn’t have been as extreme a standard as the one Roe set. While it didn’t seem obvious at the time, fifty years is after all a long time, it was inevitable that eventually there would be a majority on the Supreme Court that respected the law and the constitution, which clearly is silent on abortion. Live by the judiciary die by the judiciary basically 
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@Double_R
Releasing from the statigic oil reserve, an executive order removing regulations on the same of E15, supported an anti price gauging bill the republicans killed, and is considering a tax holiday.
So the first is a gimmick that drains a strategic resource meant for a national emergency such as a military conflict or a natural disaster. I didn’t know what the E15 regulations were until now but it looks like this does make a tiny difference, 10 cents a gallon by the administrations own estimate. An anti “price gouging” bill is horrendous economics for a number of reasons. A gas tax holiday is also a gimmick that would relieve 18 cents a gallon, an unknown portion of which would actually be passed down to the consumer. The common denominator is that none of these actually address the problem they just stick a tiny bandaid on it 

What's your point?
The point is that there is one and only one way out of this, and that’s increasing supply. I understand that doing this takes time but not only is he not taking steps in that direction, there’s a laundry list of actions he’s taken that do the opposite. 
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@Greyparrot
He is releasing oil from strategic reserves, further proving Biden doesn't understand the Oil Market runs on future supplies, not present supplies. He fucked the oil economy in 2020, not 2022.
That’s also supposed to be stockpiled for a national emergency. Knowing Biden’s luck he’s gonna finish draining it and then immediately some crisis will occur that shuts down multiple refineries at once lol 
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@Double_R
Real leaders are men of action, so let me turn the question around on you. Even if it were true that nothing he has done has made things worse (which isn’t true, see: massive Covid stimulus that overheated the economy,  outright hostility to the oil and gas industry, actions such as canceling drilling leases and pipelines etc)….sitting around doing nothing isn’t acceptable either. What concrete actions has he taken to lower inflation/gas prices? 
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@RationalMadman
Do you even know what absolute moron is largely responsible for the entire escalation and then deterioration of Taliban activity in Afghanistan? Does 'mother of all bombs' ring a bell? Save the US from Islamic Extremists was it?

It hasn’t escaped me that Trump repeatedly backed off of leaving Afghanistan and eventually set a deadline that would happen after the election that he undoubtedly knew (in his heart of hearts) that he was almost certain to lose. If you want to argue that Biden was tasked with the job of cleaning up Trumps mess on several issues I would agree…but he HASNT cleaned the mess up, he’s made it all worse
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@RationalMadman
What exactly has Biden done 'wrong' in your eyes to a significant degree?
He reversed Trump era policies designed to deter the planet sized “asylum” loophole in American immigration laws causing an unprecedented border crisis. There has been far more illegal immigration than legal immigration under Biden

He failed to withdraw from Afghanistan without significant loss of life even though he had seven months of prep time 

He sicced the FBI on parents who were concerned that a mentally ill male had raped several female students in their local school districts 

He has threatened to cut off funding for programs such as school lunches for poor students if schools don’t allow biological males into female safe spaces 

His anti energy policies have hampered American production (see Coals write up) 

He pushed through an absolutely massive Covid spending bill even when it was clear that it wasn’t necessary and would cause huge inflation, and wanted 3.5 trillion in additional spending that was thankfully blocked by Manchin 

He attempted to make tens of millions of people unemployed and unemployable for not wanting to take a vaccine 

He chose a Supreme Court nominee solely on the basis of race and sex 

I came up with all of this off the top of my head 

And also just incompetence even if you support his agenda. For example they had a signed agreement with Senator Manchin on what he would accept in a potential Build Back Better bill and they went back on the deal, causing Manchin to shut the whole thing down 
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@coal
It turns out that the buck stops with the guy at the top.  So, the default assumption is that if you're in charge, you're responsible for what happens on your watch.
I made this same argument when I was arguing with the site liberals about Biden’s disastrous and treasonous border policy. All they were arguing was “well it’s due to factors outside of his control” as if even if that were true (and it isn’t) sitting around and doing fuck all to stop a growing crisis is not acceptable from a leader just because “I didn’t start it!!!” 

I would scoff at “leadership” like that from middle management at some no name company let alone the President. Course when it comes to the border thing the reality is that he’s allowing it to happen because it’s what he wants, but I don’t think people would be willing to admit that
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Gasp Prices and Inflation
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@Greyparrot
Trump sure as hell isn't perfect, but at least he didn't promise to decrease oil production and then followed through on that campaign promise with hundreds of executive orders.
The obfuscation to avoid blaming Biden for anything really is amazing. The same thing happened several months ago in a thread about the ongoing border crisis. The quarter million a month illegals pouring in can’t have anything to do with Biden de facto legalizing it by simply releasing them en masse and flying them to their place of choice in the country…no siree, nothing to see here, definitely would have been the exact same under Trump who would’ve made asylum seekers remain in Mexico 

Gas prices would have gone up if Trump had won but there’s no doubt that Biden being openly unfriendly to the energy industry has obviously hurt a lot. Coal put forward a good synopsis. There was a very funny article in I think the NYT a few weeks ago about how Biden feels like his hands are tied with oil prices and then the last paragraph listed a bunch of stuff he had ruled out like permitting more drilling in federal land or easing certain regulations lol 

As an aside the dumbest policy thing I had ever seen was when Trump wanted to refill the strategic oil reserve with dirt cheap oil during the beginning of Covid and democrats blocked it, then bragged about blocking it. Would’ve come in handy right about now…not that I approve of releasing oil that’s stockpiled for a national emergency in order to win political points

The fact is that Biden has been dealt a shit hand but he has been playing it worse than I thought possible. He’s easily one of the worst presidents in a very long time—trying to be objective I can’t think of a single thing he has done right. It’s okay to admit this. Trump was dealt an amazing hand and he fumbled it 
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DART 2022 June Myers-Briggs and Jung personality types.
INFP
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coal - ama
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@coal
There's a lot of pressure to conform in grad school, too.  A *lot* of pressure.  My colleagues were the pre-woke.  Identity politics had not yet come to replace classically liberal Western values, yet.  But those horsemen were on the horizon.  I remember the first time in 2012 when our department designated a "safe space" for "marginalized groups."  So called "ally" stickers and buttons started showing up.  I was reading Dostoevsky at the time, and this passage has always stood out to me: 
It seems like pre 2013/2014 or so "wokeness" did exist but it was more focused on feminism, which seems to have more or less just disappeared from the discourse in a relatively brief amount of time. I am praying that the same thing happens with the current set of identity politics, which causes unnecessary division between the races. The degree to which identity politics has fomented conflict where none existed previously really can't be overstated. I myself fell into the trap somewhat in reaction and occasionally said but mostly thought things I now deeply regret...treating individuals as anything but individuals really is something grotesque.  Seeing how casually race hate is thrown around in our current society makes me sick, and I think the left will come to regret pushing this stuff so heavily. Maybe I'm too optimistic but it seems like we are near the beginning of the end of wokeness, although I don't know what replaces it
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Liberals, including me, got inflation wrong
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@Tejretics
When do you think they shoudve raised rates? They needed some “dry powder” didn’t they? That wouldn’t have helped with our current inflation tho  
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Liberals, including me, got inflation wrong
This is the economics forum and not the politics forum but man 2020 really was the election to lose, imagine how much of a blow out 2022 would be if DJT were still in office 
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Liberals, including me, got inflation wrong
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@Kritikal
I disagree that inflation is primarly fuelled by global events. It seems like federal reserve policies affect inflation the most directly, for example attempting to get inflation down to a steady rate of 2% per year.  Why do you argue that global events are the primary driver as opposed to national policy and events? 
Both are true, if you look at other developed countries they are suffering from inflation but more in the realm of 4-6% while the US is pushing 9% as of today. Policy and the world at large are to blame
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Liberals, including me, got inflation wrong
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@Tejretics
To be fair, everyone got inflation wrong for quite a while other than dedicated fiscal conservatives. And they got it wrong in the opposite direction so often that they were basically the boy who cried wolf at this point. And Trump bears some responsibility for blatantly pressuring the fed not to raise interest rates in 2017-19 when they absolutely needed to and had the opportunity to. I don’t feel bad for him because I hate him but it is objectively true that to some extent Biden got caught holding the bag for a mess Trump made 

That said the American rescue plan was definitely too big. At the time the vaccine was rolling out rapidly (and we didn’t actually know there would be so many breakthrough infections), we knew that consumer savings were huge, we knew supply chain issues were coming (did the bill do anything to address these? I don’t remember), the incredibly generous unemployment benefits were extended way too long… I am wary of making predictions on this sort of thing but I knew immediately that inflation was going to come. There was simply so much money sloshing around. Now the fed has to raise rates during a recession :( 
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DDO is shutting down
Today is the day. I just checked and the site is still up. It would be extremely funny and on brand if whoever owns the site now forgot to shut it down for a few days 
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DDO is shutting down
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@Mharman
Unfortunately Alexa rankings seems to have been shut down but my guess is that the site was probably still pulling in a ton of ad revenue from old content before Google changed their search algorithm. When you searched “abortion debate” or “death penalty debate” or something DDO content would come up. It probably gets a lot fewer visitors now and the domain is probably worth a lot. The commission on presidential debates uses debates .org as their URL for example
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DDO is shutting down
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@USBurning
You can't.

I was on DDO for a few years (username Heineken). I went back last month to see if I can fill some newly found free time, only to see that it was a spambot hell. I tried contacting Juggle LLC, but after a registry search found out that Juggle LLC was disbanded and now belongs to a babysitting business.
However, the CEOs names are still listed on the old Juggle website, so I found them on LinkedIn and wrote them specifically for the reason of buying the domain "as is". I also offered to take over the role of webmaster (for free).

Within 24 hours, the notice appeared that the site was getting shut down. I'm thinking they weren't interested in a buyout or a revitalization.
Interesting…I had a suspicion that whatever entity owned the property at this point simply forgot about it. Wonder if your message is what reminded them that they owned what has to be a pretty valuable domain name 
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Has anyone ever given you useless advice?
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@Reece101
When I had been out of college for less than two years, my manager at my first company got fired. I told my parents about it and my dad encouraged me to apply for the role because there was an “opening.” Dumbfounded was definitely the right word. It’s not even a boomer moment because at no point would companies have wanted a 23 year old being a manager lol
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Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?
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@Theweakeredge
Respectfully, I think our responses revealed both of the biases that underly our worldviews. I can tell you’re getting annoyed at me but this has been very helpful for understanding the other side. For example, my post was primarily based on genetics whereas your post was primarily based on socialization. That actually explains a lot 

But again, ignoring this, and going on from a raw social perspective while ignoring the inconsistencies: if that person experiences a "white" experience fundamentally, what part of them if fundamentally African? Their skin tone? Again, keep in mind this is an extremely non-comparative example, but even if it was, I wouldn't see your point. 
Whether “race” as a concept has a genetic basis is a different question that we can ignore for the purposes of this discussion. The reason I specified that the person was “Kenyan” was because even if *race* isn’t genetically real, ethnicity certainly is. A Kenyan person is going to have many genetic differences from an Icelandic person, who will have many genetic differences with a Han Chinese person etc, because of the tens of thousands of years of different selective pressures between these groups leading to divergent evolution. 

The point I was trying to make was that in the case of, say, a Kenyan person adopted and raised in Iceland, even if there is no cultural differences between him and others in Iceland, there is an important way in which he is still Kenyan, namely his genes. His ancestry is written into every single cell in his body. It is inescapable. Socialization isn’t everything because humans are not blank slates. This is why identical twins still behave very similarly even when raised apart. 

How I think this relates to gender is that similarly a persons male or femaleness is written into every single cell in their body, inescapable. I don’t view it as an identity that can be chosen or discarded at will, you simply are a male/female or you are not. It doesn’t matter how you’re socialized or how you feel about it, if you’re born female unless there is some other, unrelated, issue you will still have female organs and hormones, different muscle mass and bone density than a male, etc. Part of the reason I’m so skeptical of transgenderism is that the differences between men and women are so vast and multi faceted that the changes made are basically just window dressing. Jenner doesn’t look like a woman because of a pair of fake boobs…he just looks ridiculous. And everyone knows it deep down 

The core disagreement seems to be that your worldview rests on the assumption of the blank slate, and this sort of thing is the logical conclusion of that. But the blank slate is a myth. Nature > nurture 

In trans people there is a dichotomy, the name for which we give physical characteristics, and the experience of the individual: i think what you kinda' have to realize, is that that name it doesn't hold some sacred right, its a tool we use a humans. But if someone doesn't find that tool helpful, than I care about that person - and, as I have shown before - most people are a lot better at identifying their own experience than we are.

I truly don’t understand. If the “tool” of gender doesn’t apply to someone than why don’t they just be the person they are instead of trying to brute force their bodies into an exaggerated stereotype of the opposite sex? If a person is a dude who wants to wear a dress just be a dude who wants to wear a dress. It doesn’t make him any less of a biological man
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Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?
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@RationalMadman
You would consistently find that the macho and/or butch lesbian or bisexual/pansexual living her life as a woman is often far happier and content with what she is than the trans man who is still trying to feel comfortable that his body allows him (well, originally her) to act and be seen in the way that he wishes. I would love for this to be looked into and a positive angle taken on the parenting of cis masculine females and cis feminine males. This really has to be looked into.

Drag queens and sissy-kink men are often much happier with their actual male identity than trans women who never switch back or address what they really are.
Yeah I know a gay person who is apoplectic about this stuff because he sees it as the erasure of gay identity, leading many gay boys into being sterilized or otherwise damaged due to the inevitable confusion puberty causes
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@badger
Maybe it's just that I've gotten used to all the weird ideas, but I do feel like people were just more interesting back then. That rbelivb guy feels like a bit of old DDO. 
I agree, people used to argue about  what ideal societies or get into flame wars over completely abstract philosophies instead of generic republican v democrat type stuff
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@Mharman
When I joined DDO in 2016, people were already saying the site was dead. 

So this leads me to a question for the older users: What exactly was DDO like in its heyday?
Juggle made a change that severely damaged the debating section. The overwhelming majority of debates eventually ended up in a forfeit, and originally the debates page of the site would filter those out so the only debates people would see would be ones where nobody forfeited, aka the ones worth reading which were impossible to find afterward unless you stalked peoples profiles.They also changed the home page so it didn’t even feature debates anymore when before that was all it featured when you went to the debate. Org url. 

So back then people would follow debates round by round and comment and everything got a fair number of votes. Only posting in the forums and being unwilling to debate was generally frowned upon. And right before that happened, there was a shift in the sites culture driven by extremely good voters like whitelfame and bsh1 and Raisor to making these super long and in depth RFDs. These votes were obviously better but they were such a hassle that it made people less likely to vote. So you would write these long debate arguments and nobody would read it and you would get three votes if you were extremely lucky. I think like 90% of my debates were in 2011-2014 because after that it just didn’t feel very worthwhile 

Then around 2015 the polarization of American politics helped kill the site a little bit as people were so much more invested in their politics and things just got nastier. Everyone for the most part used to be friendly and would argue about more abstract ideas but that kind of changed 
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@Theweakeredge
This might be an interesting question…you said you dated a trans man who didn’t do anything to their body and just wanted to call themselves a man. Do you consider yourself a homosexual then? The person you dated presumably had two XX chromosomes, breasts and a vagina but if they are a man that would make you gay. Do you think of yourself as a gay man because you dated a person with those characteristics? Serious question 
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@Double_R
The last statistic I saw on that was that the US accounts for 31% of the world’s mass shootings, despite accounting for 5% of the world’s population. I’d Google it but am not interested in a Google battle since there are countless sources with “studies” to affirm either position. What is definitive here is that this is not a problem anywhere else in the eyes of their own citizens. The rest of the world looks at us like we’re crazy, so that right there says it all. Or at least it should.
A worldwide comparison is useless for multiple reasons, the US has to be compared to other developed countries. The population difference is such that even if laws, culture and media environment made zero difference whatsoever an event (like random spree killings) that occurs four times a year in the US would only be expected to happen once every fifteen years in a country like New Zealand, Ireland, or Norway. To be clear, I would be absolutely stunned if the per-capita rate of spree killings wasn't higher in the US than other countries, but I'm just saying it's something that should be considered when thinking about this sort of thing

I never understood the opposition to an assault weapons. Of course we can cherry pick little things wrong with the bill, that’s a reason to amend it, not get rid of it.

If guns are about self defense, no one needs an AR15. If guns are about sport, then I would love to see someone explain to the parents of the Uvalde victims that our love of sport is more important than their child’s life.

Nobody would ever say that to the parents, of course. But there are all kinds of tragedies that happen just because someone uses something they don't "need"...nobody "needs" a swimming pool, a motorcycle, a classic car with no seatbelts or airbags, sugary foods, cigarettes etc...and these things assuredly cause more suffering and death per year than "assault rifles" even among people who didn't choose to use them but were caught up accidentally. The opposition to an assault weapons ban is quite obvious, a lot of people like those guns and are perfectly capable of owning and using them responsibly.  Virtually all owners of them in fact. There's a middle ground I think...obviously it is a problem when clear headcases who everyone knows are the type to do a mass shooting can just buy a high powered rifle and does exactly that, but you also have to admit that millions of people responsibly enjoy owning and using these guns. You may not enjoy them, I don't either, but I think the problem can be very mitigated through some minor roadblocks that still allow responsible people to own them

Also as ridiculous as it seems for modern couch potato Americans to take up arms against a future corrupt government it's also not an option I want to totally take off the table either.

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@Theweakeredge
Thank you for your fascinating post. I'm only responding to a bit of it not in an attempt to ignore it but because I think this comes closer to the root of the disagreement 

I believe that gender identity is not a choice for the same I don't believe a black person might become offended at some exploitations of culture, not that its exactly the same, but hear me out for a second. From the moment your born you are socialized as something: male, white, black, female, smart, dumb, etc, etc - each and every part of your life contributes to a narrative which builds a social perspective of your identity, how the world sees you. Places which do this early on in development and significantly contribute to this are called social institutions, some examples would be: church, school, even your home, each of these places contribute to how people see you - but also - how you see yourself. The values you might aspire to, the values you might reject, the friends you consider part of your societal ingroup and outgroup. 
This I think is the big point where we disagree, specifically the highlighted bit. While what you are saying is of course true, it's not the whole truth. Imagine for example a black person of 100% Kenyan ancestry who is adopted by a white family, raised in a super white area where he never meets other black people, etc.  There are ways in which that person wouldn't be "black" as we think of a stereotypical black person. He almost certainly wouldn't speak in AAVE. He might love craft beer and cute artisanal pizzas and other honkey bullshit. You'd probably think he'd experience racism but we can at least imagine a scenario in which that doesn't happen. But there are still ways, important ways, in which that individual is Black/African. His Africanness is written into every single cell in his body. There are identities that can be chosen, and there are identities that cannot--a person can stop being a Christian if they deny the divinity of Jesus, and a person who has identified as an atheist every single day of their life until today can identify as a Christian in a moments notice if they accept the divinity of Jesus. But no matter what you want, you don't "decide" your ancestry or your sexuality. How important these identities are to you can change or be impacted by your environment and experiences but the underlying identity is still there

They've done studies on identical twins who are raised apart, and they are still scarily similar preferring the same foods, have similar taste in women/men, similar politics, etc. The environment and the culture are very important for shaping who you are but a scary amount is just inborn and not something anyone can control. If I had to guess you would likely think that the social/environmental aspects of an identity are more important, but I would completely disagree. I am firmly in the nature > nurture camp and think that the underlying genetic differences between groups of people however you slice them are the actual differences, and all of the cultural and societal stuff is window dressing.

And that's what really drives my skepticism of this entire issue. Outside of a few people (who are kind of exceptions that prove the rule since they tend to have other issues) an individuals maleness or femaleness is written into literally every cell in their body, and nothing can change that. Sex truly is a binary. And it seems to me that what happens often is that a person will look at a stereotype of their sex and think that doesn't fit them. "I was born a girl, but I don't like frilly dresses, I love sports, I don't feel comfortable with the changes to my body being brought on by puberty, I might have an attraction to women...I must have been meant to be born a man!" But in reality they're just a woman who doesn't fit multiple stereotypes, and that's okay. They should be accepted as they are instead of feeling like they are the ones who need to change because they don't fit into a stereotype. "You" could not have been born as anything other than what you were born as. An individual born of the opposite sex born to your parents instead of you would not be you, they would be someone else. It's a trivial point but an important one, there is literally no possible world in which I am a biological woman, on the most fundamental level "I" am a specific DNA sequence, there was no "me" before I was conceived and so I couldn't have been "meant" to be born as anything else. Nobody got it wrong

For example, I've dated trans men who have had no problems with their natural body - they just wanted to be called by their preferred name and associated as a man. This is the fundamental flaw I see in your ideology, that for every 1 trans woman who is having surgery, there are 10 others who do not, perhaps they go on hormones? A lot don't though. And while some of it is for money or laws, a lot of it is because they don't want to. 
Doesn't that get you thinking a little, though? If someone is born a woman, and doesn't do anything to change that they just want to be referred to as a man...do you really in your heart of hearts think that they are in the same class of "gender" as your dad? Or someone like Jenner, and alpha's alpha Olympic athlete, that person was just confused for 65 years and has always been in the same "gender" category as your mom? To be clear if I knew such a person in my life I would call them what they wanted to be called, but that wouldn't change my thoughts on it privately. Even if you accept that gender is something not inherently tied to biological sex would you consider the possibility that there are at least some individuals who are wrong, or going through a phase, or whatever?
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@Greyparrot
Wasn't the mass shooter already known to the police? How would you reform the police so that they can be more effective with existing gun laws?
In this specific case, not expunging juvenile criminal records from background checks would’ve done the trick. For other cases my unpopular opinion is that we need to be involuntarily committing people more often
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@Double_R
Is the US the only nation on earth with mentally unwell citizens? If not, then please explain, since this is the problem, why these sitting only happen here.
It’s not, and it’s also not the only country with spree killings. The massive population size of the US obscures things somewhat. Just off the top of my head there were major spree killings in really small countries like Norway in 2011 or New Zealand in 2019. There was a huge wave of spree killings in France in 2015-2016…the US population is sixty times the population of Norway/New Zealand, five times that of France. Are spree killings more common per capita in America than the rest of the developed world, probably. But it isn’t quite as stark as it seems on the surface before you take into account population size. The fact remains that in almost all of these cases the suspects are “known to police” and frequently exhibit signs of sociopathy and danger to others. That they are still empowered to purchase dangerous weapons is a problem I would agree but it seems one that is solvable. 

But in the rest of my post I did agree that there are some minor roadblocks we could put in that I think would deter a surprising number of these events, I just don’t support banning so called “assault rifles.” Such a ban would be unlikely to survive the courts, would be written by people that know nothing about guns (look up some of the guns that were legal under the previous “assault weapons ban”), and addresses only a minor facet of gun crime. The US has very limited reform capacity, lets not waste it on trying to ban guns 
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DDO is shutting down
The years long, insanely racist flame war between ethang5 and Harikrish will finally be over 

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Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?
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@Theweakeredge
Oh, I see the separation here: There are different parts of the body, some cause dyphoria - for example a trans man breasts or other stereotypically phenotypical female traits - and others identify gender - such as the part of your brain where consciousness is emergent from. 

When I say experience, I am talking about the epigenetics of your brain and body, in other words, how your genetics interact with the stimuli from your surroundings. 
So you say it’s genetic, or at least has to do with genetics. Correct me if I’m wrong but you don’t think gender identity is a choice but rather something inherent to a person right?  From an evolutionary perspective how does it make sense for a member of a sexually dimorphic species to be born into the “wrong” sex? Like what does that even mean? How would such a thing happen? What are individuals beyond the body? I’m asking because my theory is that what’s happening with most people suffering from gender dysphoria is a chemical imbalance or some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder stemming from a negative self image that could likely be corrected far easier than trying to remake their body into a mirror image of the opposite sex (impossible.) Your theory seems to be that gender identity is not only a real thing but it’s an inborn trait but that it also isn’t linked to biological sex which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Im not even being snarky, I’ve just never seen a pro-gender ideology person bridge the gap of gender being clearly associated with biological sex characteristics but not having anything to do with a specific individuals biology 

Idk. I know this issue is very important to you and that you think I’m a bad person for questioning it. But it seems much much more plausible that, for example, Bruce Jenner, a person who spent the first 65 years of life as a high testosterone alpha male who has sired six children, has some kind of sex fetish that has consumed his entire personality or a mental illness or both rather than that he was secretly a woman the entire time. 
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@FLRW
Although it's called the female hormone, a man's body also makes estrogen. A healthy balance of estrogen and testosterone is important for sexual growth and development. When these hormones become imbalanced, your sexual development and function may be affected.
Yeah my strong suspicion is that the root of gender dysphoria for a lot of people is a chemical imbalance. That seems much easier to correct than trying to brute force the body into appearing as closely as possible to the opposite sex 
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@Theweakeredge
Perhaps I wasn't clear, so I'll give you one more explanation. I am not making the claim that there is a difference between a female and a male mind intrinsically, there are some slightly different structures which don't impact too much in regards to brain matter in stereotypically considered male and female (which I've went on in length in a debate or two), but besides that that isn't the point Thett.

The point is how people experience gender, which you have seemingly missed.
If it looks like I’ve completely ignored your answer it’s only because our positions are so far apart I’m having trouble understanding what you’re saying, and you probably feel the same way. But you’ve said before that gender is something people “discover”, I’m trying to understand where it comes from in the first place if it’s not tied to the body.  “The experience of gender” isn’t a phrase that has any meaning to me.  

Let me break it down a little further.  If someone says “trans women are women” that implies that there is something “woman” about that person that isn’t the (unmodified) body. I’m trying to figure out what exactly you think that something is, and where it comes from
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@Double_R
The problem is mental health

Setting aside the notion that there is only one problem here to address as if we could not try multiple solutions at once, the US does not have a mental health issue significantly worse than any other developed nation. We do have more guns however. Way more.

Also, has any republican ever put forward a mental health bill aimed at addressing gun violence? I haven’t seen it.

But it’s even worse then that, because every time democrats propose making healthcare of any kind more accessible republicans are against it, so this might actually be the most disingenuous.
Well it is about mental health because mentally healthy people don’t do this. Our institutions really do have a lot to answer for when time and time again these suspects are “known to police.” I would agree though that republicans (as usual) are totally out of their depth and have no solution because how do you solve “mental health”. I would probably support some kind of red flag law or some kind of expanded background check because it does seem like our law enforcement is really good at identifying people who are likely to do this sort of thing and then they just aren’t empowered to do anything about it. 

It wasn’t long ago that kids brought guns to school to go on hunting or plinking trips afterward and this didn’t happen. The root of the problem IS some kind of social/mental phenomena similar to the prevalence of serial killers from the 1960s-1990s. A terrorist in Nice, France killed like 80 people with a truck so a smart and dedicated terrorist will find a way. That said it must be admitted that Europe shows us pretty clearly that a high percentage of these people are surprisingly stupid and low agency to the point that if they were unable to get a gun instead of just spending a week or two trying to get one they’ll just go with a knife or something immediately and do less damage. I wouldn’t support banning outright lots of different types of guns when the vast vast vast majority (like 99.99%) are owned by law abiding owners and when the government has made it unbelievably clear that they won’t defend you when it comes to it (as evidenced by the disgusting cowardice by the police in this case in particular. A bunch of gun owning parents probably would’ve taken care of the situation more quickly if they were allowed to)…but even some minor road blocks may make more difference than pro-gun absolutists say

I also would push back against the “do something” mentality. Our brains and instincts are not wired for the situation we find ourselves in today. In the ancestral environment if you see or hear of a bunch of kids being slaughtered that’s highly representative of what you are likely to encounter in your own life because we would only meet a few thousand people over our entire lifetimes, tops. Now we can hear about tragedies thousands of miles away and even though they’re incredibly, unbelievably  unlikely to actually happen to us our brains just can’t figure that out. There is some common sense gun stuff like red flag laws or even waiting periods I could probably get behind but what I’m really talking about here is attempts to make elementary schools more like prisons and airports in response to something like this. Systemically terrifying the  children en masse and making them miserable is a bigger threat to society in the long term than isolated tragedies 
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