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@IwantRooseveltagain
The reason Republicans might win the popular vote in the House is this:All districts don’t feature two major-party candidates, and as a result, those races skew the overall numbers. That’s because having no major-party opponent generally means candidates run up a much bigger margin than they otherwise would.In the 2022 election, there were many more uncontested House districts held by Republicans (14) than by Democrats (3). And there were another 10 districts in which the GOP had no major-party opponents, compared with just three for Democrats.
There were more uncontested R than D seats this cycle but this was probably more or less cancelled out by the 6 races in California where R’s didn’t make the runoff so only D’s can get votes. Sean Trende (an elections expert) thinks it’s more or less a wash and the national popular vote is representative, or at most knocks ~1% off the margin. This type of thing happens literally every cycle so it’s hardly new
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@bmdrocks21
Somehow, everyone realizing and rightfully blaming Trump will lead to his ardent followers to supporting him more. It’s like the mere criticism of him is his appeal, like it makes him more of an “outsider” to these people.
It’s hard to tell really. He definitely has a lot of ardent supporters but his standing has diminished a ton in the past two years and we’ve got another two years to go. Supposedly he wants to declare that he’s running for President next and I have no clue how that’s going to play out. It could give him a year to campaign uninterrupted and seal the deal or it could just come off as pathetic. One thing I’ve learned is I’m not super good at modeling the mindset of the average voter so idk what wll happen
Another thing this election proved is that voters are done with the Trumpy shit. I think the refusal to accept losing the election actually did hurt him and the candidates who went along with him quite a bit. Even pretty dire economic circumstances and a very unpopular sitting President weren’t enough to make people go for the Trumpy candidates (when again normal candidates, even quite conservative ones, won almost everywhere they survived primaries.) 2024 with him at the top of the ticket would be a disaster. As an example I don’t think I would be able to vote for him again. And if you’ve lost me…
I think up until about 2 years ago, Trump had a fantastic impact on the party. The policies he supported gave hope to the party. But lately, he has been throwing his positive legacy away and doing far more harm to the direction he pushed things in than good.
His policies were good which is why I supported him pretty much from day one in 2015 but the man himself was always a risky bet and his loss to Biden + continuing to age seems to have permanently broken him. Ever since he lost he has done enormous damage including losing the senate twice. And if the January 6th thing had gone just a little more wrong than it did it could’ve been an extremely historic day for a very sad reason. Mob mentality is no joke and if that mob had run into a few unpopular politicians like they came within seconds of doing they might have killed them. Not everyone is as cynical as me who couldn’t take it seriously and that’s probably for the best. They’re right to reject everything about that and the candidates who were too afraid of Trump to disavow it. And yes the media etc does help the left sweep their problems, like the riot filled summer of rage that preceded all this, under the rug but that’s no excuse for us not being better.
His “style” is completely toxic at this point and even before that politicians couldn’t really replicate it well. Anyone who refuses to move on from that will face a severe electoral penalty. Look at Lauren Bobert lol. She almost lost her Trump +8 seat in a year where the country shifted 6ish points right from 2020. Now THATS a pathetic performance
Trump becoming president again would be very funny but
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@IwantRooseveltagain
You never should have moved to him to begin with, wouldn’t you say?
Even now I still think he’s better than someone like a George W. Bush or a Paul Ryan. As bad as Trump is he didn’t start a needless war that killed a million people and he isn’t likely to do so if he becomes president again. And Paul Ryan types go without saying…wanting to cut entitlements is wrong and is political suicide. But there are much better options than Trump for people who don’t want to vote for the Democratic Party
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@Sidewalker
Yeah Trump could potentially screw things for the GOP for sure. Based on how well sane Republicans did I think it’s clear that the electorate as a whole doesn’t want Biden and the democrats but they want maga republicans even less. He’s definitely a major liability at the top of the ticket and potentially a fatal backstabber if he wants the nomination and doesn’t get it. But I think Trump being the nominee again would be worse for republicans in the long term than even him throwing the next election to the democrats. “Conservatism = Trumpsim” is already dangerously close to becoming a long term perception for swing voters
Trump in my view was like chemotherapy for the GOP. People like the Bush family who got us into disastrous middle eastern wars, or Paul Ryan who would rather cut social security than raise taxes even a little bit, they were a cancer that had to be purged. But once they’re gone the medicine just becomes a poison. He has to go
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@Greyparrot
The senate is more than enough proof of that. I’ve seen a lot of rage directed towards Trump so hopefully his spell is finally breaking. It’s time to move on from him!
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Interestingly the GOP is leading the popular vote right now by 6 points. When all the votes are counted it should end up around 3-4%, which would be a 6-7% shift right from 2020, when the GOP came only 5 seats short of a house majority. On paper that should’ve been enough to easily sweep the house but it’s turning into a nailbiter because this time around it’s GOP votes that aren’t distributed efficiently and not Dem votes like in 2016 and 2020. Things can change fast!
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@Mharman
1: Republicans will take the House majority. While Democrats are going to gain a lot of ground as more of these races are called, I believe Republicans have built up enough of a lead to complete the flip as the extremely close races are called. I'm thinking 219-216.
Republicans have Lee Zeldin to thank for keeping a nightmare election from becoming an apocalyptic one. I don’t think house control will quite come down to the wire but if it weren’t for Zeldin bringing NY-Gov within 5 points and bringing in a few Republican representatives through his coattails they might not have even grabbed the house…
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@SirAnonymous
Only if they don't nominate Trump. If they do, last night will be the best case scenario.
It’s hard to imagine supporting the guy who has now cost republicans the senate twice over the guy who just won Florida by 20 points but it’ll probably happen…
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@cristo71
Probably true, with a couple of exceptions: Lee Zeldin has lost to Hochul; Pennsylvania went with ideology over competence.
He did lose but he came way closer than he had any right to expect (especially given what happened elsewhere) and his coattails probably saved the house majority for R’s. In PA yeah they went for Fetterman despite him not really being fully able right now. But theres hope that he will recover, whereas I don’t think there was much hope for Oz to not be a sleazy and transparent fraud.
While I predicted a red wave, I worried that Reps would fail to legislate effectively once given the majority. As it stands now, the Dems get yet more time to own our nation’s situation. It should make for a ripe 2024!
Yeah in the long term it’s better to take the L if it makes the party nominate better candidates in the future. I worry that Dems will take from this that they can do whatever they want and there won’t be consequences and I’m worried that the people running Biden’s admin might double down and become even more aggressive. I don’t want the GOP to be so unappealing that it proves the Dems right and does let them get away with anything. I really can’t blame a non ideological voter for taking a look at some of the candidates this year and saying “no thanks”
Almost certainly not taking the senate sucks though, I really wanted to stop a lot of these woke judges Biden is nominating and now I have to worry about an unexpected death happening on the Supreme Court for another two years
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Candidates matter a lot
“Current Georgia results in statewide races:
Governor: R+8
Lieutenant Governor: R+5
Attorney General: R+5
Ag. Commissioner: R+8
Insurance Commissioner: R+8
Labor Commissioner: R+7
School Superintendent: R+8
Secretary of State: R+9
Senate: D+1”
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@RationalMadman
Honestly I agree with Roosevelt, why is Thett3 posting that if he's got a stick up his ass about post quality in these forums?
1) my last post in that thread was admitting you were probably right. If I could undo the thread I would
2) a post to discuss midterm results is obviously good for the website in a way a lot of the posts I was complaining about aren’t, making the comparison just seems dumb
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@Public-Choice
Why is he bad simply because he's Republican?
I’m not sure what post you’re replying to/what you mean
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@SirAnonymous
It's looking like Republicans got burned by nominating Trump-backed losers rather than actually good candidates. They could still get bailed out in Nevada, but this looks like a big disappointment for the GOP. Everything was in their favor, and they may well have blown it all away for the sake of the worst loser since Herbert Hoover.
Yeah, it’s hard to change inertia but if losing one of the most easy to win elections ever isn’t a wake up call I don’t know what is. Wherever the GOP nominated competent candidates like Brian Kemp or Ron DeSantis or Lee Zeldin they overperformed but even 8.5% inflation couldn’t convince the voters to go with semi lucid celebrities over actual candidates. I can’t say I honestly blame them. There’s an insane demand right now for competent governance more than there is for ideology so whichever party can ditch its crazies faster, or at least lessen their power, will win big next time around
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Wow, Miami-Dade is going red in Florida. Clinton won this county by 30 points!!
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@IwantRooseveltagain
The 24 hour news cycle is infamously vitriolic actually, and has done a lot of damage
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Maybe you missed it. Last week this bozo was complaining that my posts weren’t serious and I didn’t put enough effort into them.Do you see the irony genius?
My last post in that thread was conceding that maybe RationalMadman was right and I was being a bit of a drama queen. I do think your threads tend to be vitriolic and low information but if I could take back the thread I made last week I would. There’s no reason to clutter the forum up even more with drama
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I’m sure that thanks to my post at least a few users now know that Republicans flipped Guam’s House of Representatives delegate when they otherwise wouldn’t have known this information. I would consider it a positive contribution to the thread. Can’t say the same about your posts so far unfortunately….
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@Mharman
I don’t know enough to say but it certainly isn’t a bad sign. Apparently Dems have held this seat since 1990 so I would say it’s a good sign but we shall see very soon
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Republicans have flipped Guam’s non voting House of Representatives delegate: https://twitter.com/jakesherman/status/1590054732953169920?s=21&t=T1tibbg54CCcvSAB-DrnxQ
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@cristo71
I can see the potential benefits of higher education being diverse, but I think our understanding of the word “diversity” needs to be more diverse as well. Why must it mean chiefly black and brown people who relatively underperform?
I think there is some benefit, if elite institutions were 100% white and Asian that probably wouldn’t be a good thing. But if affirmative action went away that isn’t what would happen, the composition of students would change but every group would still be represented
And diversity of viewpoint and life experience is a lot more interesting and important than how people look and they aren’t interested. This thread is already on the cusp of being too negative and whiny but I really have to think that an applicant to an Ivy League who showed up to the interview with a hick accent would be rejected on the spot no matter how impressive he was otherwise
By the time students who need AA get to college age, our education system— or their parents, or their life circumstances, etc.— have already failed them. These shortcomings don’t get magically fixed in college. Too often, AA students drop out and with a hefty college debt— a worst case scenario, imo. They often major in soft studies such as African American Studies, Rhetoric and Communications, International Relations, etc. These pursuits don’t help a kid get ahead in life…
I agree, everything good starts at home and the home life for a lot of people is really really bad. That’s one reason I get really annoyed at these hamfisted policies. It’s probably hard to change a half century long decline in the family but we haven’t really tried either!!
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@zedvictor4
So, you feel shamed and humiliated then?
Absolutely. I’m not sure I would be able to keep my job if I shared this ad publicly. At the very least I would face severe social attacks from people. It’s a completely humiliating position to be in
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@Greyparrot
Oh comeon, lets be honest here, they also shame black people for having the audacity to complain about policies based on skin color, including Justice Thomas. Leftists don't actually care about the sanctity skin color if it threatens their power or ideology.
They definitely have very strong opinions on what “role” people should play and get very angry whenever anyone steps out of that
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@zedvictor4
Also, leftists are the ones shaming and intimidating white people for having the audacity to complain about….being denied medical care and disaster relief aid on the basis of race
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@zedvictor4
So, you might be reasonably arguing that the aforementioned policies discriminated unfairly.But wherein lies the correlation between white supremacism and Democratic health and welfare policies.
The first two came directly from the president and vice president. The rationing of covid medicine based on race and not healthcare need is DIRECTLY downstream of the liberal obsession with race and “equity.”
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@bmdrocks21
And that creates its own issues where either you have to fail a lot of students or you have to decrease standards so that the kids who were less intelligent and let in based on ethnicity can pass. NYU just fired a Chemistry teacher that taught decades at Princeton because too many kids were failing his class. I think that when you focus more on diversity than merit in college admissions, you are doomed to have merit and competition deprioritized in all areas of collegiate life. They're treating an arbitrary end as an inherent good for education whereas our sinking global competitiveness in education shows that this cannot be the case.
Yeah there isn’t very much evidence that affirmative action even helps the students who nominally benefit from it. They are often forced to take less rigorous majors or drop out and are often left with lifelong imposter syndrome that can lead to rage-envy. And that spot is taken from a student who would’ve actually would’ve benefited from being at an elite institution
And it really harms people of their group who deserve to be there because nobody can tell who got in by merit and who got in through affirmative action. Progressives make all of this fuss about studies that show “black” sounding names on resumes get fewer callbacks. Personally I think there’s probably a large class issue there beyond race (somehow I doubt Bubba or Billy-Bob would do well either) but…affirmative action and diversity policies make this behavior ECONOMICALLY RATIONAL. A black guy with Harvard and McKinsey on his resume isn’t the same as an asian guy with Harvard and McKinsey on his resume. He just isn’t. One is probably more intelligent and hard working than the other by an entire standard deviation or more. It doesn’t have to be that way if institutions admitted people on merit. I’m not convinced affirmative action even helps black/hispanic people at all but it certainly hurts whites and asians. Unbelievably shit policy
I wonder how the Court eliminating Affirmative Action will affect voting by demographics in the short-term and long-term. Asians are those most negatively impacted, yet they still are more likely to vote Democrat- perhaps because it is an issue of the Courts. If Democrats keep "equity" at the center of the agenda, they will likely be forced into amending the Civil Rights Acts to allow for discrimination for equal outcomes. I could see that being a big issue when candidates are browbeaten into running on a platform of disadvantaging their own voters- although, I'll never underestimate the effect of a college education on one's critical thinking skills.
It’s hard to say. It does seem like the dem worshiping of black people has started to alienate other groups, but some of them either buy into it themselves or use it cynically as a bludgeon against white people, who they view as their only real competition. I think ultimately the diversity stuff is something that elites love but the actual people don’t (even black people barely support or oppose affirmative action based on the poll) so on net it will probably be a drag for democrats for a long time.
I mean look at the OP. I know I’m more aware of this stuff than most but I would NEVER support the type of people who do this. It’s fucking disgusting and ghoulish, I would hate it no matter what group it targeted and I know there are many good people in every race who would agree
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@bmdrocks21
I think in their heart of hearts most of them really do view “election denier” republicans as an actual threat to the republic/democracy. but just not enough to do the principled thing and stay out of the other parties primaries even if it means a much stronger candidate wins
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Also even with affirmative action like half or more of the black students at elite universities are descendants of recent African immigrants, not descendants of slaves. The entire thing is a complete farce
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It’s also really funny (in a fucked up way) to me how in some cases affirmative action harms asian-americans even more than white people. The whole punishing white people for the sins of (some of) their fathers is grotesque but wtf did Asian people ever do to deserve such severe penalties in school admissions lol. Succeed too hard?
And hey I get it, the constantly studying striver is an annoying personality type and a university completely full of them would be a real drag. But the differential between ethnic groups on who gets rejected and who gets accepted is insane. You’ll have true 140+ IQ galaxy brains from certain ethnic groups who may not get into any elite universities and the slots will be filled with people from other ethnic groups who might be 80th percentile or so in intelligence
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@Greyparrot
I’m excited about it. Either we have freedom of association or we have government enforced anti -discrimination. If we have the latter it has to be a two way street.
I’m also really excited to see democrats flail and freak out over what’s probably their least popular and most unfair policy getting banned. You have to be deep into the liberal narrative to justify why six decades after the civil rights movement a white or asian kid should have to score a standard deviation higher than a black kid to get into the same school
It’s also really funny (in a fucked up way) to me how in some cases affirmative action harms asian-americans even more than white people. The whole punishing white people for the sins of (some of) their fathers is grotesque but wtf did Asian people ever do to deserve such severe penalties in school admissions lol. Succeed too hard?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I doubt it. It seems likely the distribution of relief in this way was appropriate. An 18 yo black man is likely to have zero history of having medical care or access to a PCP. A 65 year old white guy probably goes to the doctor twice a week and has had a PCP his entire life from birth.
Somebody in their early 60's was 25x more likely to die of COVID than an 18 year old. They were objectively more in need, by a substantial margin. There's no doubt that white people died because this medicine was given to young, healthy people of other races who did not need it to live. Other risk factors such as medical history were ALREADY included in the formulas to distribute the drugs, race was included IN ADDITION TO these factors, and in some cases was prioritized over a history of congestive heart failure
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Financial aid and medical treatment both should go to the people who need it the most if it is in short supply. Do you agree?
I do agree, which is why I think it was obscene and disgusting to prioritize this based on race instead of objective need. The people who implemented policies such as giving monoclonal antibodies to black 18 year olds over white people in their 60s, or trying to keep white people from accessing financial aid for their businesses have a lot to answer for
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@IwantRooseveltagain
What is true? That poor people are more impacted by natural disasters than people of means? That POC are more likely to be poor in this country than white people? Those are both indisputably true
The claim in the ad, that Harris said hurricane aid should be distributed based on “equity”, ie race based is true
How do you feel about rationing COVID medicine and financial aid based on race?
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@Greyparrot
I really hope some of the site liberals respond because everything in the ad was true. How is this a “white supremacist” society lol
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A recent political advertisement in the state of Georgia has been widely criticized which alleges that Democratic policies are discriminating against white people. You can watch it here: https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1587645902730280961
The NAACP, an organization with an annual budget of around $25 million, has sent a letter to stations in Georgia demanding that the "misleading" ad be taken down: https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1588182223471054848
I find this quite bizarre because I believe that every single claim in the advertisement is objectively true. As I see it, the advertisement made three major claims and I will analyze each one individually:
Claim #1:
Joe Biden tried to ration pandemic relief based on race
This one is just objectively true, and was proven in federal court. The Biden administration attempted to dole out relief funds to restaurants that were closed due to the pandemic based on race. White males were so far to the back of the line that there was a serious risk of the fund running out entirely before they were allowed to access it. Fortunately, the court stepped in and ruled that this discrimination was violating the law:
In addition, this decision was held up at the appeals court: https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/06/03/federal-appellate-court-rules-that-biden-administration-cant-deny-covid-relief-funds-to-white-restaurant-owners/?sh=4d3780d2d996
In addition, federal court slapped down an attempt to give money to nonwhite farmers, and only nonwhite farmers: " https://nypost.com/2021/06/12/judge-halts-bidens-4b-aid-program-for-farmers-of-color/ The judge in the case wrote:
"The “only consideration in determining whether a farmer or rancher’s loans should be completely forgiven is the person’s race or national origin,” Griesbach wrote. “Plaintiffs are completely excluded from participation in the program based on their race.”
“The obvious response to a government agency that claims it continues to discriminate against farmers because of their race or national origin is to direct it to stop: it is not to direct it to intentionally discriminate against others on the basis of their race and national origin,”
Verdict: This claim is objectively, indisputably true. The administration did attempt to ration COVID aid by race, with whites so far to the back of the line that they may not have gotten anything.
Claim #2: Kamala Harris said disaster aid should be rationed by race
This is by far the weakest claim in the ad, but I don't think it's misleading at all. Here is the clip so you can see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rM7oITGdjnY
Harris is specifically talking about hurricane, says that "communities of color" are most impacted (despite the hurricane in question hitting communities that were around 85-90% white) and stating that we need to be "giving resources based on equity."
Verdict: This is the weakest claim, but it still holds up as true
Claim #3: Medical treatment for COVID was rationed by race, with whites at the bottom
This is the most inflammatory claim and unfortunately, it is true that COVID treatments were rationed by race in certain jurisdictions.
Aaron Sibarium did some excellent reporting on this which you can read here: https://twitter.com/aaronsibarium/status/1479482941067743233 but in New York, minorities were automatically eligible to receive monoclonal antibodies, which were in short supply, "regardless of age or underlying conditions." In Minnesota, the "ethical framework" used to determine who could get this treatment prioritized black 18 year olds over white 64 year olds, even though the latter were clearly more at risk. In Utah (!) the formula which determined eligibility for the treatment gave more points for "Latinx ethnicity" than a history of "congestive heart failure."
In addition, when the vaccine was first being rolled out, the decision was made not to prioritize the elderly, who were actually dying, but frontline workers. Part of the rational, as I documented at the time here (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5351-a-great-example-of-the-actual-purpose-of-identity-politics) was because the elderly (again, the people who were actually dying) were too white of a population to deserve access to the vaccine first.
In Vermont and Motana(!) white people were given access to the vaccine later than people of color were: https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-04-05/vermont-covid-19-vaccine-priority-minority-residents
Verdict: This claim is objectively true, although fortunately this did not happen everywhere. Nonetheless, discrimination against white people in accessing COVID treatments likely led to thousands if not tens of thousands of additional deaths in the white community.
I'm confused why this ad is getting any pushback at all since all of the claims made are factual. White Supremacy is a really weird system I suppose, when white people can be denied financial aid and lifesaving medical treatment and are shamed for complaining about it.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Every state should do their elections like Florida. They have a large percentage of the vote that comes in absentee and they still manage to count virtually everything in a few hours. We should expect nothing less of every state
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
Alright maybe I’m wrong about Walker
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The worst thing is that the competitive races are all in states who absolutely suck at counting votes. Every other country manages to count almost every vote within hours but in America it’s apparently too much to ask to have the results in hand in less than a week
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@Greyparrot
That’s what I would expect if it wasn’t for the Georgia runoff law. I just have a hard time seeing Herschel Walker winning an outright majority of the vote. Georgia is one of the few states where the polling is generally pretty good. I am sticking with 52-48 but several races will be on a knifes edge
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@Double_R
That isn’t data though, it’s a model that includes some data (pretty much polling data and maybe some economic information) but also a whole lot of assumptions on how to interpret that which you may or may not agree with
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@Greyparrot
I think he’s a much more interesting figure than people give him credit for. He was far more concerned about his “legacy” in the popular imagination than someone like Biden is which limited how far he was willing to go—I don’t see Obama doing a vaccine mandate or sending the FBI after parents who protest letting transgender males into bathrooms with their daughters. And he did have an embarrassingly obvious identity crisis that he was working through. But he wasn’t just a pretty face who was a good speaker like a lot of conservatives seem to think
He definitely thinks republicans are worse but I don’t think he would like what the Democratic Party is becoming either. He publicly called out Biden’s open border disaster for example
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@Greyparrot
you might find this interesting, which was an in depth and off record conversation he had with reporters during his last days in office that got FOIA’d: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-30/obama-on-trump-1-presidential-term-is-okay-but-8-years-would-be-a-problem-l8t1lk89?sref=KczNubwY
Very interesting stuff. obviously it would never happen but I would love to have a private and honest conversation with someone like Obama. I wonder what he really thinks of Biden’s presidency even if he thinks republicans are worse. I mean I know I am so biased that it’s sometimes hard to tell how accurate I see things is but it seems to me like Biden politicized law enforcement a LOT which was one of Obama’s big worries
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@RationalMadman
I think you’re right actually. I do wish the insulting other users would stop though
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@Greyparrot
I actually more or less did forget about that. I remember that they leaked debate questions to her but not to Sanders. How much this mattered in the end is anyone’s guess but the “establishment” certainly put their thumbs on the scale to defeat Sanders twice. In 2020 in particular I’m convinced a certain person named O made some calls to convince everyone to drop out and endorse Biden
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@RationalMadman
I can tell you what your OP and this thread is designed to do:Callout and insult 2 users that irritate you.I can also tell you that if I had made this thread about popular users, I'd have been heavily punished unless it was specifically about moderation and the mods.
Maybe you would be but that wouldn’t be fair if true. I see a problem, the forum clogged with extremely low effort posts, and am wondering if there’s a solution. It’s weird to have so many mods if they aren’t even going to try to control it. I’m not saying lay out the ban hammer but have they even talked to the guy?
You are not usually so petty and toxic and honestly you are one of the last people I thought to see advocate killing activity on the site that's always borderline dead.
It’s borderline dead BECAUSE you have to wade through so much low effort stuff to get to anything good! Why would anyone join it if all you see is vitriol! There are plenty of people here who can and have made quality contributions but the percentage of posts that are worthwhile keeps dropping
The answer to you is that only the toxicity is the issue and you should PM mods about the user. I am someone who has reported his posts, so I can say I am not a fan of the insulting
Fair enough, it definitely seems like I’m in the minority in this one in any case
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@RationalMadman
Do the rules allow for insulting other users in every other post?
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@Avery
It’s true I can just scroll past it and I will in the future. It’s just frustrating to see a once interesting forum devolve into very low effort propaganda posts. I’ll try to make more quality posts to counter the low effort ones
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@3RU7AL
making the block function remove the blocked user from the view of the blocker, would SOLVE "problems" like this
It doesn’t solve the problem of making the website entirely unappealing to new users
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