My perspective on mandatory vaccination is a bit distinct from this topic, though I do support it in some instances, albeit not to the extent that I would force people to take them. I would not mandate vaccination in this case.
I did read your argument, and I am interested in the topic.
That may have been implicit in your argument, but I did not see you set that aside as an alternative framework and argue that it was preferable to Pro's. You argued that the P5 is problematic, but never established what makes a nation sufficiently powerful to be on the permanent security council, never established what specific perspective other nations would bring that would, as you put it, "balance each other's greed and powerlust out", and instead just said that India represents a large enough subset of the population to warrant their participation as a permanent member without ever really explaining what's gained by adding to global representation. If you're going to argue that there's a need for diversity of opinion and greater representation of the total population of the world, then establish what's gained by adding to it. Don't just assert that there's some greater balance without examining the value of having it.
I agree that Con didn't establish any basis for his points, either, but at least in his case, I have a clear means of seeing how it harms the current P5 in their ability to pursue given actions. Maybe those actions are bad, but I'm not given any reason to believe that. I'm just being told that India's addition to the permanent security council needs to have clear value. If that value is reduced or even made nonexistent by India's lack of will to take action, then it doesn't matter what they actually bring to the table, even if that is diversity and numbers of people being represented.
That's a pretty vague critique. Considering that I agree with your side, I'm not sure what I'm confirming with my bias, nor am I very clear about what words I twisted.
Mainly, if you're going to try other strategies (say, advocating for an end to the permanent Security Council), do it up front. You had points regarding the veto power that you could have used to build such a case early on, but you'd have to dig into it more to really get there. Also, emphasize why you have a framework in the first place. Even if it's not a great way to establish what the Security Council should do, it's the only clear option discussed in the debate. RM suggests some ways to determine who should be on the council, but they're never all that explicit and they seem a bit arbitrary (you expose yourself to that argument, but at least you have a framework for why your arbitrary choice should be preferred).
Honestly, I'd have to watch this over again because we're so far removed from it. I will say that I personally thought that blamonkey did a better job, though whether that would have merited a vote would require me to re-watch it.
I think you did better this time. You were more directly responsive to his points and built up a generally stronger case, though I can still see you falling into the same trap of believing you’ve addressed certain points that are still very much a problem for your case.
My argument isn't so much becoming more complex as I'm finding ways to emphasize and better demonstrate it. They're the same points I was making before, I'm just using studies (both yours and mine) to establish stronger links between specific outcomes and a purported cause. I'm also doing more this round to push individual examples and tilt analysis of these results in my favor. There are lots of ways to address all that, but given that we only have one round left, your goal should be to push hard on aspects of your case that make it strong and to expose holes in my analysis. Getting too deep into pure rebuttal and trying to go tit-for-tat on data analysis will probably detract too much from the overall points you're trying to make, so try to limit your responses to the key points I'm trying to make, and focus on rebuilding your case.
I think a lot of my arguments are reductive, i.e. if you don’t solve for everything, why are you even bothering? It’s a valid argument, but it also dismisses the value of partial successes via progressive change. My suggestion is to find ways to look at the longer term and how communities can establish a relationship with minority populations.
As for economics, I’d say your point still has validity, but I might emphasize the bigger picture and why these beneficial effects exist. What changes for Latino families when they’re not concerned that their parents may be deported at any time? How does it affect their willingness to push for things like a college education when there’s a concern that they could be turned in and deported after racking up debt?
I’ll where I’m going with my thoughts now that I’ve read through the round.
When it comes to this innocent v. guilty argument, it’s not a bad place to go, but it should be better connected to the split between our positions. The argument could be based on the notion that deportation and/or other federal punishments for immigration are particularly harmful, and that the standard for proof should therefore be higher. However, that’s a pro-reform argument, not so much pro-sanctuary cities. I think if you wanted to make it stick, it’d have to be about the idea that the federal government often gets it wrong, meaning that we should side with more local law enforcement as a means of preventing undue punishments to individuals. That requires some support.
I expected to see this argument about how racist, anti-immigrant is tendencies among police tend to reduce trust in those police. The missing piece here is the explanation for how federal contributions to that problem exacerbate those tensions. I can think of ways to support that argument, but as it is, I can mostly beat this back by pointing out that immigrant perspectives largely don’t shift when they’re still being arrested and racially profiled by officers who would rather that they could deport them. If people come there because they wish to avoid deportation but still expect that police will mistreat them, then why are they more likely to trust police enough to report crimes in that city?
Finally, with regards to those economic costs, be prepared to address the distinction between nationwide effects and local effects. Data gets a little muddier the more focused your attention is on those specific populations.
I think that would be comparing apples to oranges. You both had arguments, but one was presented live and the other via writing. Also, though MisterChris's case is much the same, he definitely added a bit to this, clearly at least partially in preparation for arguments that Speed made against him. That being said, I think Speed's case was stronger (largely because CX helped elucidate it), but the arguments themselves had similar heft. Speed probably did a better job on impact analysis, though I think you did better at addressing some of the issues with Chris's case.
I think I’ll hold off for now. Suffice it to say that my rating system is more involved, and I don’t want to give it here before others have had a chance to employ their own. Could just give numbers, but they aren’t going to mean much without explanation, so I’ll wait until the end.
I could probably go a few more debates before I had to start reusing AMVs, though my choices for subsequent rounds of this sort would probably include more repeat anime and/or editors. I still try to keep up with new ones, though I'll admit that my scope is somewhat limited by my previous finds. I trend more towards anime than AMVs, though I like them for different reasons, so I can see why you might prefer the latter to the former. There are some examples (I didn't post them in these rounds) of AMVs that did such a good job portraying the best parts of an anime that I actually preferred them to the series after watching the full thing. I've loved a lot of different kinds of anime, posted a favorite list here a little while back, and yeah, prefer mostly subbed myself with a few exceptions (mostly 90s anime, which I started watching dubbed and which had amazing dubs). No shade on the manga vs. anime front. There are some series (One Piece comes to mind) where the pacing of the anime is just garbage, but it's much better in the manga. Then there are series that just take what's in the manga and portray it way better on screen, like Kimetsu no Yaiba. There are even a few examples of series that have taken massive liberties with the story and come out with something better than the original, like Dororo. Also, just somewhat depends on whether you like the drawing style or the full motion animation. I usually prefer the anime, personally.
Maybe so. I honestly picked my list based on what I felt were my absolute favorites mixed with a few I appreciate quite a bit based on certain elements. Can't say that there was a specific tactic to my choices - it was honestly just a lot of fun going through some of the AMVs I've appreciated over the years and picking out a set of 12 that represent some of the best I've seen. Didn't really think much on the order except to keep each round diverse with genres and minimize the number of AMVs that include the same anime, were done by the same editor, or included songs from the same artist. I was surprised how easy that was - if you took a look at my overall list, there's a lot of One Piece, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and Naruto in there.
As for this being Rated, it's not that big of an issue for me. I don't do this kind of debate (same with the one I did with Supa) to get a win. It's honestly some of the most enjoyable stuff for me to do, and if it comes at a cost to my rating, I'm good with that.
I’ll work on this, though it’ll be a hot second before I can get to it.
If the lesson you took from the last debate was “present more sources”, though, that’s not what I was trying to tell you with my feedback. I talked a bit about better source utilization, I.e. digging down into the elements of a source that establish their value, defending them more effectively from rebuttals, etc. Sheer numbers may win you some debates, but they tend to mean you undercover each one, which makes the sum often worth less than the actual number of sources.
Season 1 of OPM is absolutely gorgeous. At least with action scenes and some high intensity stuff, there's the term "sakuga," but if there are other terms for just different styles of animation within a show, I'm not aware of them.
Decent, though I tend not to be the biggest fan of AMVs that just display events that happened in the same order as the anime. Not a lot of innovation there.
Also brand new today:
https://youtu.be/bWNrn0kmaOI
Do note, however, that I'm working and will have limited time to get at this. Might not be able to post the actual RFD until just after work and close to the deadline, so if it gets close, just know I'm still on it.
Yeah, issues with the style of Madoka Magica are, by and large, what I've found to be the greater impediment to interest in the show (same's true of Made in Abyss). I will point out that at least a couple of mine are one-hit-wonders, especially as jrob156 has largely become a gaming channel and all the inactives largely focused on one or two projects (I can't seem to find much else that they've done, sadly), but yes, I'd say that my choices tend to come from consistent editors. That's largely the result of stumbling upon some of their later work and then going through many of their videos, which tends to rack up a few favorites. The other bias in my choices is musical. I definitely have a type of sound that I gravitate towards, though it appears that we share quite a bit there. Billie Eilish, NF and Shinedown all feature pretty prominently among my other favorites in AMVs.
If we expanded this out to another round, it almost certainly would have fallen into the more “hardcore and furious” category. Most of what got cut towards the end was action-oriented, including a favorite Naruto AMV of mine from way back (it got me into AMVs in the first place) and a very new One Piece AMV that focuses on the action hype of the series, but they got nixed in favor of some of the lower key options.
Didn’t keep up with the arguments. Gimme a bit to read through it and I’ll get back to you.
My perspective on mandatory vaccination is a bit distinct from this topic, though I do support it in some instances, albeit not to the extent that I would force people to take them. I would not mandate vaccination in this case.
I did read your argument, and I am interested in the topic.
Maybe after you finish this one? Unless you want to do them simultaneously.
Well, I really wish I’d been in time to take this one.
Yep, good example of how those can be misused, especially since these short responses didn't accomplish much.
That may have been implicit in your argument, but I did not see you set that aside as an alternative framework and argue that it was preferable to Pro's. You argued that the P5 is problematic, but never established what makes a nation sufficiently powerful to be on the permanent security council, never established what specific perspective other nations would bring that would, as you put it, "balance each other's greed and powerlust out", and instead just said that India represents a large enough subset of the population to warrant their participation as a permanent member without ever really explaining what's gained by adding to global representation. If you're going to argue that there's a need for diversity of opinion and greater representation of the total population of the world, then establish what's gained by adding to it. Don't just assert that there's some greater balance without examining the value of having it.
I agree that Con didn't establish any basis for his points, either, but at least in his case, I have a clear means of seeing how it harms the current P5 in their ability to pursue given actions. Maybe those actions are bad, but I'm not given any reason to believe that. I'm just being told that India's addition to the permanent security council needs to have clear value. If that value is reduced or even made nonexistent by India's lack of will to take action, then it doesn't matter what they actually bring to the table, even if that is diversity and numbers of people being represented.
That's a pretty vague critique. Considering that I agree with your side, I'm not sure what I'm confirming with my bias, nor am I very clear about what words I twisted.
Mainly, if you're going to try other strategies (say, advocating for an end to the permanent Security Council), do it up front. You had points regarding the veto power that you could have used to build such a case early on, but you'd have to dig into it more to really get there. Also, emphasize why you have a framework in the first place. Even if it's not a great way to establish what the Security Council should do, it's the only clear option discussed in the debate. RM suggests some ways to determine who should be on the council, but they're never all that explicit and they seem a bit arbitrary (you expose yourself to that argument, but at least you have a framework for why your arbitrary choice should be preferred).
Honestly, I'd have to watch this over again because we're so far removed from it. I will say that I personally thought that blamonkey did a better job, though whether that would have merited a vote would require me to re-watch it.
I think you did better this time. You were more directly responsive to his points and built up a generally stronger case, though I can still see you falling into the same trap of believing you’ve addressed certain points that are still very much a problem for your case.
Appreciate the feedback!
You made valid points. I think there are good reasons to vote either way in this case.
Got coal’s debate to do first, then this one.
Don’t think I’ll get a chance to do this one. Backlog of requests is already long, and this debate would be tough for me to stay neutral.
I'll see what I can do.
My argument isn't so much becoming more complex as I'm finding ways to emphasize and better demonstrate it. They're the same points I was making before, I'm just using studies (both yours and mine) to establish stronger links between specific outcomes and a purported cause. I'm also doing more this round to push individual examples and tilt analysis of these results in my favor. There are lots of ways to address all that, but given that we only have one round left, your goal should be to push hard on aspects of your case that make it strong and to expose holes in my analysis. Getting too deep into pure rebuttal and trying to go tit-for-tat on data analysis will probably detract too much from the overall points you're trying to make, so try to limit your responses to the key points I'm trying to make, and focus on rebuilding your case.
Lots of options.
I think a lot of my arguments are reductive, i.e. if you don’t solve for everything, why are you even bothering? It’s a valid argument, but it also dismisses the value of partial successes via progressive change. My suggestion is to find ways to look at the longer term and how communities can establish a relationship with minority populations.
As for economics, I’d say your point still has validity, but I might emphasize the bigger picture and why these beneficial effects exist. What changes for Latino families when they’re not concerned that their parents may be deported at any time? How does it affect their willingness to push for things like a college education when there’s a concern that they could be turned in and deported after racking up debt?
Love to see what you come up with.
Well won, though kinda frustrated we only got one vote.
Got a lot on my plate at the moment, including several other debates to vote on. Still, might blitz through it if no one else does.
It can be somewhat difficult to be incisive about. There's a lot of data, but turning it into something solid can be frustrating.
I’ll where I’m going with my thoughts now that I’ve read through the round.
When it comes to this innocent v. guilty argument, it’s not a bad place to go, but it should be better connected to the split between our positions. The argument could be based on the notion that deportation and/or other federal punishments for immigration are particularly harmful, and that the standard for proof should therefore be higher. However, that’s a pro-reform argument, not so much pro-sanctuary cities. I think if you wanted to make it stick, it’d have to be about the idea that the federal government often gets it wrong, meaning that we should side with more local law enforcement as a means of preventing undue punishments to individuals. That requires some support.
I expected to see this argument about how racist, anti-immigrant is tendencies among police tend to reduce trust in those police. The missing piece here is the explanation for how federal contributions to that problem exacerbate those tensions. I can think of ways to support that argument, but as it is, I can mostly beat this back by pointing out that immigrant perspectives largely don’t shift when they’re still being arrested and racially profiled by officers who would rather that they could deport them. If people come there because they wish to avoid deportation but still expect that police will mistreat them, then why are they more likely to trust police enough to report crimes in that city?
Finally, with regards to those economic costs, be prepared to address the distinction between nationwide effects and local effects. Data gets a little muddier the more focused your attention is on those specific populations.
I think that would be comparing apples to oranges. You both had arguments, but one was presented live and the other via writing. Also, though MisterChris's case is much the same, he definitely added a bit to this, clearly at least partially in preparation for arguments that Speed made against him. That being said, I think Speed's case was stronger (largely because CX helped elucidate it), but the arguments themselves had similar heft. Speed probably did a better job on impact analysis, though I think you did better at addressing some of the issues with Chris's case.
Next on my list, guys. Will get to this.
Didn’t say it was tedious, just a lot on my plate.
Just remind me as this goes on. Got a bit of a backlog going that I’m hoping to blitz through this weekend.
Glad you appreciate that one.
Couldn’t be...
I think I’ll hold off for now. Suffice it to say that my rating system is more involved, and I don’t want to give it here before others have had a chance to employ their own. Could just give numbers, but they aren’t going to mean much without explanation, so I’ll wait until the end.
I’d be up for doing that at the end. Feel like it might just be a nice opportunity to rate ourselves and each other without risk at that point.
I could probably go a few more debates before I had to start reusing AMVs, though my choices for subsequent rounds of this sort would probably include more repeat anime and/or editors. I still try to keep up with new ones, though I'll admit that my scope is somewhat limited by my previous finds. I trend more towards anime than AMVs, though I like them for different reasons, so I can see why you might prefer the latter to the former. There are some examples (I didn't post them in these rounds) of AMVs that did such a good job portraying the best parts of an anime that I actually preferred them to the series after watching the full thing. I've loved a lot of different kinds of anime, posted a favorite list here a little while back, and yeah, prefer mostly subbed myself with a few exceptions (mostly 90s anime, which I started watching dubbed and which had amazing dubs). No shade on the manga vs. anime front. There are some series (One Piece comes to mind) where the pacing of the anime is just garbage, but it's much better in the manga. Then there are series that just take what's in the manga and portray it way better on screen, like Kimetsu no Yaiba. There are even a few examples of series that have taken massive liberties with the story and come out with something better than the original, like Dororo. Also, just somewhat depends on whether you like the drawing style or the full motion animation. I usually prefer the anime, personally.
Good to see a solidly-made Baki AMV. I'm caught up on the series, it's pretty good.
Maybe so. I honestly picked my list based on what I felt were my absolute favorites mixed with a few I appreciate quite a bit based on certain elements. Can't say that there was a specific tactic to my choices - it was honestly just a lot of fun going through some of the AMVs I've appreciated over the years and picking out a set of 12 that represent some of the best I've seen. Didn't really think much on the order except to keep each round diverse with genres and minimize the number of AMVs that include the same anime, were done by the same editor, or included songs from the same artist. I was surprised how easy that was - if you took a look at my overall list, there's a lot of One Piece, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and Naruto in there.
As for this being Rated, it's not that big of an issue for me. I don't do this kind of debate (same with the one I did with Supa) to get a win. It's honestly some of the most enjoyable stuff for me to do, and if it comes at a cost to my rating, I'm good with that.
Another AMV I was very close to selecting:
https://youtu.be/VF3TDPhj_Bs
I’ll work on this, though it’ll be a hot second before I can get to it.
If the lesson you took from the last debate was “present more sources”, though, that’s not what I was trying to tell you with my feedback. I talked a bit about better source utilization, I.e. digging down into the elements of a source that establish their value, defending them more effectively from rebuttals, etc. Sheer numbers may win you some debates, but they tend to mean you undercover each one, which makes the sum often worth less than the actual number of sources.
Appreciate the vote!
I can do it, but remind me about this over the weekend. The week’s rough.
I’d say it was also largely decided by R3. We clearly saw certain points differently, but I can see where you’re coming from.
Season 1 of OPM is absolutely gorgeous. At least with action scenes and some high intensity stuff, there's the term "sakuga," but if there are other terms for just different styles of animation within a show, I'm not aware of them.
Decent, though I tend not to be the biggest fan of AMVs that just display events that happened in the same order as the anime. Not a lot of innovation there.
Also brand new today:
https://youtu.be/bWNrn0kmaOI
Appreciate that. I don't think I'll miss the deadline.
Do note, however, that I'm working and will have limited time to get at this. Might not be able to post the actual RFD until just after work and close to the deadline, so if it gets close, just know I'm still on it.
I am still trying to get through this. I've just got fauxlaw's final round left, and I've already got notes based on what I've read so far.
Suffice it to say, at least for now, this is a closer debate than I anticipated.
Sorry about the delay on voting, will try to finish it.
Hey, got that one, too. Close call for me between them, both great, though.
That’s a good mix of anime.
My list of runner-ups is almost as long as the ones I actually chose, but this one got close. One of my favorite AoT AMVs.
https://youtu.be/MpVZ4gove3E
Started reading it today.
Be interested to see how this plays out.
Yeah, issues with the style of Madoka Magica are, by and large, what I've found to be the greater impediment to interest in the show (same's true of Made in Abyss). I will point out that at least a couple of mine are one-hit-wonders, especially as jrob156 has largely become a gaming channel and all the inactives largely focused on one or two projects (I can't seem to find much else that they've done, sadly), but yes, I'd say that my choices tend to come from consistent editors. That's largely the result of stumbling upon some of their later work and then going through many of their videos, which tends to rack up a few favorites. The other bias in my choices is musical. I definitely have a type of sound that I gravitate towards, though it appears that we share quite a bit there. Billie Eilish, NF and Shinedown all feature pretty prominently among my other favorites in AMVs.
If we expanded this out to another round, it almost certainly would have fallen into the more “hardcore and furious” category. Most of what got cut towards the end was action-oriented, including a favorite Naruto AMV of mine from way back (it got me into AMVs in the first place) and a very new One Piece AMV that focuses on the action hype of the series, but they got nixed in favor of some of the lower key options.