Well, that’s a shame. I’d still like to have this debate. If you comment here or message me in the next 48 hours, we can try to do a 2 round debate. Otherwise, I’ll consider this a full forfeit and try to get the debate deleted - not a fan of winning debates that way.
I really don't know what you're hedging against by having that large of a character limit. Honestly, on a debate like this where the subject of the debate isn't something we can deeply research or source, I'd be amazed if either of us managed to reach 10k characters, much less 30k. However, I would like to ensure that this debate is easily readable so that we can get more voters, as Ragnar suggests, and I think allowing for the possibility that one such round occurs is detrimental to that goal.
I'm considering it. I think I can argue for this, and I do love my history. Couple of things: could we extend the timeframe for arguments to 1 week, and could we reduce the character count to 10,000? I don't expect either of us would use the full 30,000 anyway.
1) How exactly would these work? Would anyone be able to select a day, time and location to view? Are there limitations, and if so, what are they?
2) Can pictures and/or film be taken from the various times and locations viewed through these telescopes?
3) Do these telescopes physically manifest at the time and location of choice, or are they more like one-way viewing screens without physical presence in the past?
4) As Con, are you allowed to proffer a similarly science fiction device as an alternative to compare with these telescopes, or can you only compare with available teaching tools?
For what it's worth, I don't think this is about whether Athias won or lost. I understand his frustration because I understand what he thinks I did and how it could have affected my perception of a particular scene. He saw aspects of my vote that gave him the impression that I applied a different standard to the Basilisk fight and wants me to own the perceived error, so this is more about standing on principle than standing in opposition to my vote. I've said as much as I'm willing to say in defense of this decision. We may (and clearly do) disagree on the Aizen vs. Ichigo fight (though I will say that there are numerous fights I would have given huge points to from Bleach, including the one you mention about Aizen vs. everyone), though I can see why you love that particular fight, in the same way that I can see why Athias appreciates the fight from Basilisk.
I’m not here to analyze plots. I’m not proclaiming the greatness or awfulness of shows based solely on single scenes. I can analyze and enjoy a variety of plots, and I’m sure Basilisk is a great show. It’s not my aim to disparage it or find specific fault with this scene. I’ve got a scale and I’m rating how well this scene jives with certain elements I look for in a good fight scene, as well as one that draws me into the emotional turmoil involved. It didn’t do that. Feel free to hold me responsible for some arbitrary judging in this case, though if you were going to do that, I’d focus more on my Death Note vote, where I can see a better case for your point. I certainly brought in outside context there, and for that, I erred. I would not say I did so to any great degree in my assessments of the others, including Basilisk.
What I said, and what you keep using as thought it encompasses the entirety of the reason that I made the decision I did, is that my lack of context made the decision more difficult. Determining what to award a scene that was clearly meant to connect on a level of subtext that none of the others (save Death Note) shared is not easy when you haven’t seen the previous episodes that inform it. My capacity to sympathize with the characters and understand what why are going through is impaired, I admit that. Your claim, though, goes beyond that. You say I didn’t make the same assessments regarding context on the other videos. I’ve pointed out several instances in which I did just that. What you’re also missing is what I’ve now stated a few times in pieces, but I’ll iterate as clearly as I can here.
A fight is usually a series of big actions back to back, and much as there may be little context in a scene for those actions, I can judge them based chiefly on spectacle. That’s easy to do when you’re dealing with lots of sakuga. It’s a lot harder to assess quieter moments, like those with Death Note and, yes, Basilisk. There’s a lot of subtlety to these scenes with a lot of meaning behind certain looks and words. The context for those, I would argue, is a lot more important because if I don’t have it, I don’t have grandiose animation to fall back on. So, yes, all the scenes that you mention lack context. That’s not the chief points that matter to me as I assess them. They may lose a point for its lack. I don’t feel the same about scenes that rely heavily on that context to be understood or appreciated. Only Death Note and Basilisk has that reliance in my eyes. So, if you want me to re-score them taking out context as a factor, I’d still end up giving Basilisk a 5, and Death Note would drop to a 7, since I have little clue from the scene itself what’s so important about this death.
Clearly, this isn’t going anywhere. You have a very different perception of what I did and why I did it than I do, and I’ve explained what went into my decision as best I am willing to do at this time. If that’s what you believe based on what you’ve read of my posts, so be it. However, to be clear, if I took context out of the picture, it’s your score that would suffer the most. My vote would not change, even if the scores would.
I stated up front that Basilisk is a show I have not seen and do not know well. I guess you would have thought my decision better if I had been dishonest and claimed that I had seen it or left out any mention of my lack of foreknowledge of the series, but hey, let's put that behind us. I have now stated multiple times that context did affect other fights badly, including the Bleach and Akame Ga Kill fights presented by your opponent. Basilisk is not alone in this. I’ve also stated that the fight itself didn’t draw me in based on spectacle. So, what do I have to base it on? Well, there’s a lot of character motivations at play. You don’t just have two people fighting it out, and when several of them are interfering in the fight for dramatically different reasons, that makes for a lot of subtext. I feel like understanding that subtext gives the scenes emotional weight, but I don’t feel it because I’m not familiar with these characters. You say that the reason for that is that I haven’t watched it, but I would probably have given it a similar score if I had. I’m judging these based almost entirely on what I see on the screen, not based on the emotional stakes built up over a litany of previous episodes. The one and only major caveat to that is Light vs. L, and if you want, I can take away the points that I gave you there to make it fair.
I’m not going to continue going through what reasons I had for it not connecting with me. I have more I could put into words, and more I can’t. That’s how interactions with media tend to work – not everything can be explained in objective terms. I guess, from the outset, I just should have put scores next to each and not given any explanation. It would have made this a lot simpler.
A lot of your comments show that you're taking some things out of my own context (interesting, considering the discussion we're having). I admit fully and up front that my experience with these series colors my observations of them. There's no way to remove that. What I have said repeatedly, and what I'll say again, is that context is an important aspect, but it's not the end all be all either. If we have two characters fighting it out, then the context matters less because there are only two sets of motivations at play. If I understood none of the context from the Fate Zero fight, I could still say it's an extraordinarily well-choreographed fight between two exceptionally well-animated characters. If that was all I had, if I excluded the entirety of their backgrounds and motivations, this would still get a high score. What you're doing, and where I think your context is flawed, is assuming that this is the sole or major reason why I have made any of these decisions. At best, these factors raise a couple of these by a point, and bring a couple of them down by the same. What you've deduced, as you say, is based on selective reading of my reasoning at best.
Look, if you don't like my reasons, that's your prerogative. I disagree with your conclusion, and I disagree with your characterization of my other choices as well. Not having seen a series does not automatically reduce the effectiveness of its fight scenes in my eyes, and you can either choose to believe that or choose to conclude that someone who went through a great deal of effort and consideration with all of these choices (more so with the Basilisk fight because I spent quite a bit longer analyzing it) is being dismissive of the fight's strengths solely because he hasn't watched the series. You may want someone who is willing to judge these fights on a more basic level or someone who has watched all these series and has extensive knowledge of the context behind each of these fights. Sorry, I can't do either of those things, and I tried to be relatively fair in leaving out much of the context behind these fights and focusing on the information I was presented. If that's not enough for you, then so be it.
I watched the entirety of these scenes from start to finish, i.e. if a scene did not include the beginning of the fight (e.g. when Saitama bursts in and Boros explains the entirety of his motivation), I found it and included it in my assessment. In my opinion, it's part of the fight. I did that for every single one of these fight scenes. For the longer ones (Luffy vs. Doflamingo, the Basilisk fight, and Yugi vs. Yami), I watched the entire episode, and for the Basilisk fight in particular, I went out of my way to research the characters and get some idea of what their motivations were. I judged them in a way that took into account the superficial aspects of the fight, and the background information/motivations/contexts that I could glean from the fight itself. Having more information/context being conveyed does not necessarily improve the degree to which I understand a scene or can relate to what's going on, so I think that standard is problematic.
I've already gone well beyond what I feel I ever needed to do to justify a choice I've made on here. If you feel I should have been able to glean more information from the Wikipedia page or from the scene itself about the motivations of the characters, you're welcome to think that. I'm telling you what I took away from the scene. That clearly clashes with how you saw it, but those are my impressions. I'm telling you what I got from the scene and the limited research I did, and even with added motivations, it may not have gotten higher. If you want to claim that the sole reason for the difference is that I did not watch the series, be my guest. It's entirely possible that I would have rated it the same regardless. I disagree with how you think I'd characterize the fight between Kirei and Kiritsugu without context (I think it's a badass fight regardless of context) and the same goes for all the fights you listed. Hell, I haven't even seen Hunter X Hunter, yet Netero vs. Neruem still blew me away.
Beyond that, I do think I applied similar standards to what I have seen. In a vacuum, Ichigo vs. Aizen is incredibly difficult to understand. Without foreknowledge of the Hougyoku, Ichigo’s time training just before the battle, or Aizen’s total control over his life up to that point (not to mention some idea of what Zangetsu looks like to understand that final form), it’s incredibly difficult to understand what’s going on. The lower score reflects that, despite the visual flair of the fight. A similar problem exists with Akame vs Esdeath (though I think there’s information missing even for long time viewers there). The rest of these choices are mostly more straightforward and have the sakuga to stand out regardless of how much you understand. You can disagree with that, but, again, this is subjective. What I’m taking from these fights may be different from what you are. In the end, your last choice just didn’t do much for me on several levels, and while I’m sure there is something great there, I can’t see it without the context of previous episodes.
The reality is that any decision here is subjective. What we choose to like from a given fight scene depends entirely on what we take away from it. Contrary to your statement about Saitama vs. Boris, I don’t need to know anything about the background of either character to get an idea of why the fight is occurring (the latter says multiple times during the fight that he was looking for someone powerful enough to challenge him), nor do I need context for their strength. I’m not applying that standard to literally any of these; how they obtained their strength was not a factor on any of my decisions. Sure, if I hadn’t seen the series, I might have been put off by Saitama’s aloof nature, but most of my decision derived just from how cool the fight is to watch.
So I don’t know what standard you think I’m using, but I think I gave at least some clear reason for every since choice. You’re not happy with my last choice, and that’s fine, but I watched it twice, read the Wikipedia page for the characters to understand more of what was going on, and still couldn’t glean a reason for Oboro’s intervention. I shouldn’t have to go to those lengths to find out what motivated these characters, and considering just how pivotal that part of the fight was, the fact that I was lost didn’t help. In all, though, in terms of visual strength, it just didn’t have it for me. One scene (at the time stamp you gave me) was decently cool to watch. The rest was mostly subtext, i.e. there was a lot going on but we were meant to glean it from what the characters both were and were not saying. That’s great storytelling, but it’s not so great when a) I don’t have the background on these characters and b) I have an isolated set of scenes to analyze. I was clear that I had not seen Basilisk, but that doesn’t mean that my choice was derived solely or even largely from that lack of knowledge.
Finally, I fully admit foreknowledge of many of these series results in some bias, which in some cases helps and in others hurts. I will say that I made an effort to focus on the fights themselves and leave much of the context out. For example, if I had placed it in the context of the series, Light killing L would have lost a point because it wasn’t the end of the series, leading to a much more anticlimactic ending built from L’s successors. I will say that, when I see a fight scene from an anime I’m not familiar with, I tend to give it a lot of leeway and assume that everything going on has been justified in the previous narrative. That actually resulted in more points than I would have given your final selection otherwise.
I'm sure it would have been possible for me to establish context, though I think doing so goes beyond the bounds of this debate. I will say that the emotional moments are certainly harder to understand without context in the MHA and Fate Zero fights, though I think the main difference is that the pure sakuga of those two fights is strong, and I think you can glean something from the discussion between All Might and All For One regarding their backgrounds and motivations (harder to do with Kiritisugu and Kirei, but hey, that's Fate Zero for you).
It's not that I have a problem with a one-sided fight (going through a mental list, I think at least two of my favorites would be one-sided), it's that I have trouble capturing what makes this fight so great without the context. Based on your explanation, it probably warranted a better score, but I'd have to have that information going in to truly appreciate it. I actually did watch further, but I had trouble understanding what was happening. I've got a great deal of problems with Naruto as a series, but it does pull off some amazing fights without the need for that context (or finds a way to include it via more creative means, as with Kakashi vs. Obito). That works better for this kind of format, hence the higher scores for most of those fights.
And I think that's where we differ on this. I agree that there are a great deal of limitations when it comes to making selections like these in this kind of format. I think that's part of what makes these interesting - how well do these fights stand by themselves, rather than how do they stand with all the appropriate context included. I've seen a handful of anime fights that made me want to watch an anime, even if there are large swaths of it that I don't understand, because regardless of their ability to stand alone, they draw you in. This selection just didn’t do that for me.
Gennosuke vs. The Iga Clan: 5
This one’s the hardest to judge because I have no context for it (haven’t seen Basilisk). I’d say it probably wasn’t the best choice because it seems to build from some really integral relationships built up over the past 8 episodes. Maybe it’s just because I have seen the others, but I don’t think any of them required a build up or understanding of the series of events as much as this does. There’s also no payoff for a lot of the other characters being there. The scenes involving the usage of techniques are fascinating, and even for someone who’s not familiar, there’s a solid tension to the whole thing. This gets points for the sheer domination of Gennosuke’s technique as well, but there’s no real combat involved, so as fights go, it’s not as strong as many of the others on this list.
All Might vs All For One: 8
- Another great hype fight. Nothing incredible in terms of fight dynamics (though All Might really takes some interesting tactics, and the mind games in the fight are intriguing), but United States of Smash bumped this up a point. The fact that everyone was watching helped as well. I think what makes this fight great is what goes into it, and it’s meaning to the overall story, rather than the fight itself.
Yugi Moto vs. Atem: 8
- Doesn’t get any better than this for Yugioh, so good choice. There’s an incredible amount of strategy involved in this, and no weird, impossible plays like so many of the others. They frontloaded the Egyptian Gods, which removed their utility throughout the remainder of the game, but they do an incredible job going through the incredible gallery of cards that Yugi has used over the years. As an homage to the series, it’s about as amazing as it gets, and if it wasn’t for the basic limitations of a card-based combat system and the litany of comments from the peanut gallery, this would be getting more points.
Con R4:
Maito Gai vs. Uchiha Madara: 8
It’s a pretty solid display of incredible power from Gai, especially against an opponent that appeared nigh untouchable. There’s emotional stakes and some interesting and useful involvement from his allies. It’s nice to see the return of taijutsu vs. a slew of techniques, but it doesn’t really showcase Madara at his best in the series (not much in the way of eye techniques), and much as it pays off the Eight Gates, the fact that Gai survived this really cheapened its usage.
Light has L Killed: 10
- As far as mind games go, the whole back and forth between Light and L is one of the best in anime. This was exceptionally well done, with the only caveat being that it’s the end of L for the series. Not much else to say – it’s the gold standard for psychological battles.
Sarutobi Hiruzen vs Orochimaru: 6
- Certainly a dynamic fight with a lot of moving parts, though it dragged in places, and wasn’t particularly happy with the ending. I get what they were going for, but the Third’s final technique is kind of disappointing, and much as we got to see a lot of techniques, we didn’t get to see much of the former Hokages or Orochimaru’s capabilities (more from both came later).
Con R2:
Goku vs. Frieza: 6
- This one gets a point for sheer nostalgia but watching it through again reminds me how much this fight drags and repeats scenes. Much as it’s the most iconic fight of the series, it’s more iconic for the moment of Goku turning SSJ, and while some of the fighting is really epic and interesting before he gets his golden hair, and if it had just encompassed that, I think this would have gotten a 7 or an 8. After the transformation, it gets a lot less interesting to be honest, and the infamous “5 minutes” is frustrating.
Kirei Kotomine vs. Kiritsugu Emiya: 9
- So glad someone chose this, one of my absolute favorites. I love watching these two go at it, and especially watching Kiritsugu innovate his way through a fight with such a strong opponent. The only slam against it is that anticlimactic ending, which admittedly works with the series, but cuts off the fight before it ends. Short but incredibly sweet.
Saitama vs. Boros: 9
- In terms of just a knock down, drag out fight, I don’t think it gets much better than this. Getting to see Saitama do more than just kill something in one hit was exceptional, and much as this was a relatively simple fight (Boros just hits him with everything he has and keeps powering up, while Saitama is mostly just dodging or taking it), it’s awesome. That hit to the moon is just amazing.
Pro R4:
Akame vs. Esdeath: 6
Was never the biggest fan of this one. It has spectacle, and it’s nice to see Akame and Esdeath cut loose, but the sudden power boost from Akame comes out of nowhere and Esdeath just doesn’t come off as the utter badass she usually is. It’s a decent fight with awesome swordplay and some real stakes, but I’m not sure I’d even say it’s the best of the series, especially with an ending that I found strange, given the whole freezing time ability.
Kakashi vs. Obito: 10
Incredibly well-animated and with some amazing interplay between scenes from their childhood and the fight proper, I think this is either the best or one of the best fights from Shippuden. The choreography gives it an extra point, and I think the fact that this doesn’t have any massive spectacle gives it a leg up over other fights from the later Naruto series. It’s raw and unfiltered, involving some of the most basic and strategic skill display.
Netero vs. Meruem: 8
- It’s a pretty awesome fight, if a little abbreviated and simple. Lots of techniques from Netero, just overwhelming strength and speed from Meruem. Really good display of 2 incredibly powerful characters.
Rock Lee vs. Gaara: 10
- What I would say is the best fight in Naruto and a contender for the best even when compared with Shipuuden. Good animation for the time, intense pitched fight between two largely unknown powerhouses with incredibly different styles of fighting, and some good emotional stakes thrown in. As a demonstration of what these two can do and who they are, it’s amazing. Iconic fight, to be sure.
Pro R2:
Ichigo vs. Aizen final fight: 4
- It’s not a bad fight, but it is all glitz and glamor without much else going for it. Ichigo at his coolest and calmest was, honestly, more boring than he should have been, and watching Aizen effectively eschew any mind games was frustrating.
Gon vs. Pitou: 7
- Generally great beatdown fight with some incredible set pieces. The power boost is one of the few that’s justified well by power system. It gets a slight step down from Netero vs. Meruem because it’s more simplistic – just a physical matchup.
Pro R3:
Luffy vs. Doflamingo: 7
- Certainly one of the better fights from One Piece, though this is more about moments than it is about the actual flow of the battle. Gear Four is incredible to watch, and Doflamingo is my favorite villain in the whole series, but beyond Doflamingo’s awakened Devil Fruit, this is really just a “let’s wait for Luffy’s power to come back” fight. It’s incredibly cool to watch, but it doesn’t have much meat to it.
Honestly, that doesn’t sound incredibly long to me, but then I tend to spend a lot more time in total between reading a debate and writing an RFD to explain my decision. That being said, I know I don’t personally expect voters to listen extensively to every song. You and anyone else are welcome to listen to as much or as little as you want. The goal was to provide good listening, not to get extensive analysis of each song or a thorough comparison between what we presented. If voting on this proves to be onerous, then I honestly think it’s not worth doing. I know I didn’t enter into this with the aim of getting voters who had painstakingly listened to every single song and carefully considered their choice.
Just to bump this (with the faint and somewhat vain hope of getting a vote or two that are actually votes) and introduce you to an amazing OST from Gankutsuou. Forgot about this one.
I love this idea. Finally have to sift through some incredible anime music - haven’t picked my favorites yet, but that’s part of the fun! Looking forward to seeing yours.
I will say it's not quite that simple. Much as it's basically indisputable that FMA:B is a better done series in almost every way, the points where it's lacking the most come early. It rushes through a lot of the character building moments at the beginning of the series, particularly the story with Shou Tucker and some of the early stuff with their master, Izumi Curtis. It's not devastating, but it does make the emotional moments early on lose some punch. Not that I don't have any problems with FMA:B, but it might be one of the most tightly crafted anime series I've ever seen in any medium.
I finished the manga for Fairy Tail. It's a pretty decent series, to be sure, but it's a little trope-y for my liking, and I think other series have done this kind of story far better. Some of the fight scenes are truly triumphant, and I'm a fan of some of the characters, I just found that I was never as invested in this as I should have been. It certainly isn't trash, just nothing special.
Admittedly, haven't watched Hunter X Hunter, though I've been told I need to rectify that. I'm still a big fan of One Piece, though I think the anime has pacing issues. Honestly, that's one instance in which I'd say that the manga is stronger. I've gone through phases with Naruto, and though I have issues with a great deal of the story, the themes stick with me pretty well and the fight scenes are, at least to my knowledge, largely unmatched. Bleach is... well, I finished the manga, and let's just say I've been severely disappointed by it. Up through the end of the Rescue Rukia Arc, it was one of my all-time favorite anime. Past that point, it ranges from decent to incredibly frustrating. Akame ga Kill was admittedly a better manga than an anime, though it's pretty decent. I wouldn't call it one of my favorites. If I had to give a shortlist, my favorites would include Fate Zero, Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan, Cowboy Bebop, Mob Psycho 100, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and Made in Abyss.
No joke, FMA:B is one of the best series out there. I was a fan of the original series as well, though this is a substantial improvement. Fairy Tail has its moments, though I can't say it's one of my favorites. Lots of good series out there, always happy to talk anime.
I'd take this if I'd seen JoJo's. In terms of additions, here's a short list of things that should rise to the level of A-Tier (at least if we're comparing with those you've given):
Death Note
Code Geass
Fullmetal Alchemist
Sword Art Online
Angel Beats
Elfen Lied
Attack on Titan
Fairy Tail
Cowboy Bebop
Evangelion
Hellsing
Rurouni Kenshin
K-On
Darker than Black
Pokemon
Yugioh
Don't mean to come off as an anime snob (honestly, I like many of the anime you've posted), but I'm honestly wondering where all the classics are, not to mention some of the non-Shonen hits. I'll fully admit to being a Shonen fanboy first and foremost, though I can't help but notice the lack of other genres.
I mean, I'm good with R1 being arguments only, but I'd like if we can introduce new points going out to R3 (not that I'm expecting to do that, but I want the option).
Quite a bit, actually. Not going to get into any specifics because that’s RM’s territory, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that there’s value in the relationship. The question is whether that value outweighs or is outweighed by the harms of said relationship.
Didn’t you say you were going to specify your position in the first round? Not to give your opponent fodder or anything, but it’s still unclear what your specific position is, since you seem OK with eating animals in some circumstances that you haven’t specified.
Well, that’s a shame. I’d still like to have this debate. If you comment here or message me in the next 48 hours, we can try to do a 2 round debate. Otherwise, I’ll consider this a full forfeit and try to get the debate deleted - not a fan of winning debates that way.
Just a heads up, about 30 hr. left.
Great. Challenge accepted.
Checking in again to see if you can change the time to post arguments.
Haven't seen the timeframe for arguments change yet. I can usually do 2 days, but I'd like to have a week just in case something goes awry.
I really don't know what you're hedging against by having that large of a character limit. Honestly, on a debate like this where the subject of the debate isn't something we can deeply research or source, I'd be amazed if either of us managed to reach 10k characters, much less 30k. However, I would like to ensure that this debate is easily readable so that we can get more voters, as Ragnar suggests, and I think allowing for the possibility that one such round occurs is detrimental to that goal.
I'm considering it. I think I can argue for this, and I do love my history. Couple of things: could we extend the timeframe for arguments to 1 week, and could we reduce the character count to 10,000? I don't expect either of us would use the full 30,000 anyway.
Nope, makes sense to me.
Alright, a few questions:
1) How exactly would these work? Would anyone be able to select a day, time and location to view? Are there limitations, and if so, what are they?
2) Can pictures and/or film be taken from the various times and locations viewed through these telescopes?
3) Do these telescopes physically manifest at the time and location of choice, or are they more like one-way viewing screens without physical presence in the past?
4) As Con, are you allowed to proffer a similarly science fiction device as an alternative to compare with these telescopes, or can you only compare with available teaching tools?
If Gatorade doesn’t join Pro, I will.
For what it's worth, I don't think this is about whether Athias won or lost. I understand his frustration because I understand what he thinks I did and how it could have affected my perception of a particular scene. He saw aspects of my vote that gave him the impression that I applied a different standard to the Basilisk fight and wants me to own the perceived error, so this is more about standing on principle than standing in opposition to my vote. I've said as much as I'm willing to say in defense of this decision. We may (and clearly do) disagree on the Aizen vs. Ichigo fight (though I will say that there are numerous fights I would have given huge points to from Bleach, including the one you mention about Aizen vs. everyone), though I can see why you love that particular fight, in the same way that I can see why Athias appreciates the fight from Basilisk.
I’m not here to analyze plots. I’m not proclaiming the greatness or awfulness of shows based solely on single scenes. I can analyze and enjoy a variety of plots, and I’m sure Basilisk is a great show. It’s not my aim to disparage it or find specific fault with this scene. I’ve got a scale and I’m rating how well this scene jives with certain elements I look for in a good fight scene, as well as one that draws me into the emotional turmoil involved. It didn’t do that. Feel free to hold me responsible for some arbitrary judging in this case, though if you were going to do that, I’d focus more on my Death Note vote, where I can see a better case for your point. I certainly brought in outside context there, and for that, I erred. I would not say I did so to any great degree in my assessments of the others, including Basilisk.
What I said, and what you keep using as thought it encompasses the entirety of the reason that I made the decision I did, is that my lack of context made the decision more difficult. Determining what to award a scene that was clearly meant to connect on a level of subtext that none of the others (save Death Note) shared is not easy when you haven’t seen the previous episodes that inform it. My capacity to sympathize with the characters and understand what why are going through is impaired, I admit that. Your claim, though, goes beyond that. You say I didn’t make the same assessments regarding context on the other videos. I’ve pointed out several instances in which I did just that. What you’re also missing is what I’ve now stated a few times in pieces, but I’ll iterate as clearly as I can here.
A fight is usually a series of big actions back to back, and much as there may be little context in a scene for those actions, I can judge them based chiefly on spectacle. That’s easy to do when you’re dealing with lots of sakuga. It’s a lot harder to assess quieter moments, like those with Death Note and, yes, Basilisk. There’s a lot of subtlety to these scenes with a lot of meaning behind certain looks and words. The context for those, I would argue, is a lot more important because if I don’t have it, I don’t have grandiose animation to fall back on. So, yes, all the scenes that you mention lack context. That’s not the chief points that matter to me as I assess them. They may lose a point for its lack. I don’t feel the same about scenes that rely heavily on that context to be understood or appreciated. Only Death Note and Basilisk has that reliance in my eyes. So, if you want me to re-score them taking out context as a factor, I’d still end up giving Basilisk a 5, and Death Note would drop to a 7, since I have little clue from the scene itself what’s so important about this death.
Clearly, this isn’t going anywhere. You have a very different perception of what I did and why I did it than I do, and I’ve explained what went into my decision as best I am willing to do at this time. If that’s what you believe based on what you’ve read of my posts, so be it. However, to be clear, if I took context out of the picture, it’s your score that would suffer the most. My vote would not change, even if the scores would.
I stated up front that Basilisk is a show I have not seen and do not know well. I guess you would have thought my decision better if I had been dishonest and claimed that I had seen it or left out any mention of my lack of foreknowledge of the series, but hey, let's put that behind us. I have now stated multiple times that context did affect other fights badly, including the Bleach and Akame Ga Kill fights presented by your opponent. Basilisk is not alone in this. I’ve also stated that the fight itself didn’t draw me in based on spectacle. So, what do I have to base it on? Well, there’s a lot of character motivations at play. You don’t just have two people fighting it out, and when several of them are interfering in the fight for dramatically different reasons, that makes for a lot of subtext. I feel like understanding that subtext gives the scenes emotional weight, but I don’t feel it because I’m not familiar with these characters. You say that the reason for that is that I haven’t watched it, but I would probably have given it a similar score if I had. I’m judging these based almost entirely on what I see on the screen, not based on the emotional stakes built up over a litany of previous episodes. The one and only major caveat to that is Light vs. L, and if you want, I can take away the points that I gave you there to make it fair.
I’m not going to continue going through what reasons I had for it not connecting with me. I have more I could put into words, and more I can’t. That’s how interactions with media tend to work – not everything can be explained in objective terms. I guess, from the outset, I just should have put scores next to each and not given any explanation. It would have made this a lot simpler.
A lot of your comments show that you're taking some things out of my own context (interesting, considering the discussion we're having). I admit fully and up front that my experience with these series colors my observations of them. There's no way to remove that. What I have said repeatedly, and what I'll say again, is that context is an important aspect, but it's not the end all be all either. If we have two characters fighting it out, then the context matters less because there are only two sets of motivations at play. If I understood none of the context from the Fate Zero fight, I could still say it's an extraordinarily well-choreographed fight between two exceptionally well-animated characters. If that was all I had, if I excluded the entirety of their backgrounds and motivations, this would still get a high score. What you're doing, and where I think your context is flawed, is assuming that this is the sole or major reason why I have made any of these decisions. At best, these factors raise a couple of these by a point, and bring a couple of them down by the same. What you've deduced, as you say, is based on selective reading of my reasoning at best.
Look, if you don't like my reasons, that's your prerogative. I disagree with your conclusion, and I disagree with your characterization of my other choices as well. Not having seen a series does not automatically reduce the effectiveness of its fight scenes in my eyes, and you can either choose to believe that or choose to conclude that someone who went through a great deal of effort and consideration with all of these choices (more so with the Basilisk fight because I spent quite a bit longer analyzing it) is being dismissive of the fight's strengths solely because he hasn't watched the series. You may want someone who is willing to judge these fights on a more basic level or someone who has watched all these series and has extensive knowledge of the context behind each of these fights. Sorry, I can't do either of those things, and I tried to be relatively fair in leaving out much of the context behind these fights and focusing on the information I was presented. If that's not enough for you, then so be it.
I watched the entirety of these scenes from start to finish, i.e. if a scene did not include the beginning of the fight (e.g. when Saitama bursts in and Boros explains the entirety of his motivation), I found it and included it in my assessment. In my opinion, it's part of the fight. I did that for every single one of these fight scenes. For the longer ones (Luffy vs. Doflamingo, the Basilisk fight, and Yugi vs. Yami), I watched the entire episode, and for the Basilisk fight in particular, I went out of my way to research the characters and get some idea of what their motivations were. I judged them in a way that took into account the superficial aspects of the fight, and the background information/motivations/contexts that I could glean from the fight itself. Having more information/context being conveyed does not necessarily improve the degree to which I understand a scene or can relate to what's going on, so I think that standard is problematic.
I've already gone well beyond what I feel I ever needed to do to justify a choice I've made on here. If you feel I should have been able to glean more information from the Wikipedia page or from the scene itself about the motivations of the characters, you're welcome to think that. I'm telling you what I took away from the scene. That clearly clashes with how you saw it, but those are my impressions. I'm telling you what I got from the scene and the limited research I did, and even with added motivations, it may not have gotten higher. If you want to claim that the sole reason for the difference is that I did not watch the series, be my guest. It's entirely possible that I would have rated it the same regardless. I disagree with how you think I'd characterize the fight between Kirei and Kiritsugu without context (I think it's a badass fight regardless of context) and the same goes for all the fights you listed. Hell, I haven't even seen Hunter X Hunter, yet Netero vs. Neruem still blew me away.
Beyond that, I do think I applied similar standards to what I have seen. In a vacuum, Ichigo vs. Aizen is incredibly difficult to understand. Without foreknowledge of the Hougyoku, Ichigo’s time training just before the battle, or Aizen’s total control over his life up to that point (not to mention some idea of what Zangetsu looks like to understand that final form), it’s incredibly difficult to understand what’s going on. The lower score reflects that, despite the visual flair of the fight. A similar problem exists with Akame vs Esdeath (though I think there’s information missing even for long time viewers there). The rest of these choices are mostly more straightforward and have the sakuga to stand out regardless of how much you understand. You can disagree with that, but, again, this is subjective. What I’m taking from these fights may be different from what you are. In the end, your last choice just didn’t do much for me on several levels, and while I’m sure there is something great there, I can’t see it without the context of previous episodes.
The reality is that any decision here is subjective. What we choose to like from a given fight scene depends entirely on what we take away from it. Contrary to your statement about Saitama vs. Boris, I don’t need to know anything about the background of either character to get an idea of why the fight is occurring (the latter says multiple times during the fight that he was looking for someone powerful enough to challenge him), nor do I need context for their strength. I’m not applying that standard to literally any of these; how they obtained their strength was not a factor on any of my decisions. Sure, if I hadn’t seen the series, I might have been put off by Saitama’s aloof nature, but most of my decision derived just from how cool the fight is to watch.
So I don’t know what standard you think I’m using, but I think I gave at least some clear reason for every since choice. You’re not happy with my last choice, and that’s fine, but I watched it twice, read the Wikipedia page for the characters to understand more of what was going on, and still couldn’t glean a reason for Oboro’s intervention. I shouldn’t have to go to those lengths to find out what motivated these characters, and considering just how pivotal that part of the fight was, the fact that I was lost didn’t help. In all, though, in terms of visual strength, it just didn’t have it for me. One scene (at the time stamp you gave me) was decently cool to watch. The rest was mostly subtext, i.e. there was a lot going on but we were meant to glean it from what the characters both were and were not saying. That’s great storytelling, but it’s not so great when a) I don’t have the background on these characters and b) I have an isolated set of scenes to analyze. I was clear that I had not seen Basilisk, but that doesn’t mean that my choice was derived solely or even largely from that lack of knowledge.
Finally, I fully admit foreknowledge of many of these series results in some bias, which in some cases helps and in others hurts. I will say that I made an effort to focus on the fights themselves and leave much of the context out. For example, if I had placed it in the context of the series, Light killing L would have lost a point because it wasn’t the end of the series, leading to a much more anticlimactic ending built from L’s successors. I will say that, when I see a fight scene from an anime I’m not familiar with, I tend to give it a lot of leeway and assume that everything going on has been justified in the previous narrative. That actually resulted in more points than I would have given your final selection otherwise.
I'm sure it would have been possible for me to establish context, though I think doing so goes beyond the bounds of this debate. I will say that the emotional moments are certainly harder to understand without context in the MHA and Fate Zero fights, though I think the main difference is that the pure sakuga of those two fights is strong, and I think you can glean something from the discussion between All Might and All For One regarding their backgrounds and motivations (harder to do with Kiritisugu and Kirei, but hey, that's Fate Zero for you).
It's not that I have a problem with a one-sided fight (going through a mental list, I think at least two of my favorites would be one-sided), it's that I have trouble capturing what makes this fight so great without the context. Based on your explanation, it probably warranted a better score, but I'd have to have that information going in to truly appreciate it. I actually did watch further, but I had trouble understanding what was happening. I've got a great deal of problems with Naruto as a series, but it does pull off some amazing fights without the need for that context (or finds a way to include it via more creative means, as with Kakashi vs. Obito). That works better for this kind of format, hence the higher scores for most of those fights.
And I think that's where we differ on this. I agree that there are a great deal of limitations when it comes to making selections like these in this kind of format. I think that's part of what makes these interesting - how well do these fights stand by themselves, rather than how do they stand with all the appropriate context included. I've seen a handful of anime fights that made me want to watch an anime, even if there are large swaths of it that I don't understand, because regardless of their ability to stand alone, they draw you in. This selection just didn’t do that for me.
Gennosuke vs. The Iga Clan: 5
This one’s the hardest to judge because I have no context for it (haven’t seen Basilisk). I’d say it probably wasn’t the best choice because it seems to build from some really integral relationships built up over the past 8 episodes. Maybe it’s just because I have seen the others, but I don’t think any of them required a build up or understanding of the series of events as much as this does. There’s also no payoff for a lot of the other characters being there. The scenes involving the usage of techniques are fascinating, and even for someone who’s not familiar, there’s a solid tension to the whole thing. This gets points for the sheer domination of Gennosuke’s technique as well, but there’s no real combat involved, so as fights go, it’s not as strong as many of the others on this list.
Total = 59
Con R3:
All Might vs All For One: 8
- Another great hype fight. Nothing incredible in terms of fight dynamics (though All Might really takes some interesting tactics, and the mind games in the fight are intriguing), but United States of Smash bumped this up a point. The fact that everyone was watching helped as well. I think what makes this fight great is what goes into it, and it’s meaning to the overall story, rather than the fight itself.
Yugi Moto vs. Atem: 8
- Doesn’t get any better than this for Yugioh, so good choice. There’s an incredible amount of strategy involved in this, and no weird, impossible plays like so many of the others. They frontloaded the Egyptian Gods, which removed their utility throughout the remainder of the game, but they do an incredible job going through the incredible gallery of cards that Yugi has used over the years. As an homage to the series, it’s about as amazing as it gets, and if it wasn’t for the basic limitations of a card-based combat system and the litany of comments from the peanut gallery, this would be getting more points.
Con R4:
Maito Gai vs. Uchiha Madara: 8
It’s a pretty solid display of incredible power from Gai, especially against an opponent that appeared nigh untouchable. There’s emotional stakes and some interesting and useful involvement from his allies. It’s nice to see the return of taijutsu vs. a slew of techniques, but it doesn’t really showcase Madara at his best in the series (not much in the way of eye techniques), and much as it pays off the Eight Gates, the fact that Gai survived this really cheapened its usage.
Con R1:
Light has L Killed: 10
- As far as mind games go, the whole back and forth between Light and L is one of the best in anime. This was exceptionally well done, with the only caveat being that it’s the end of L for the series. Not much else to say – it’s the gold standard for psychological battles.
Sarutobi Hiruzen vs Orochimaru: 6
- Certainly a dynamic fight with a lot of moving parts, though it dragged in places, and wasn’t particularly happy with the ending. I get what they were going for, but the Third’s final technique is kind of disappointing, and much as we got to see a lot of techniques, we didn’t get to see much of the former Hokages or Orochimaru’s capabilities (more from both came later).
Con R2:
Goku vs. Frieza: 6
- This one gets a point for sheer nostalgia but watching it through again reminds me how much this fight drags and repeats scenes. Much as it’s the most iconic fight of the series, it’s more iconic for the moment of Goku turning SSJ, and while some of the fighting is really epic and interesting before he gets his golden hair, and if it had just encompassed that, I think this would have gotten a 7 or an 8. After the transformation, it gets a lot less interesting to be honest, and the infamous “5 minutes” is frustrating.
Kirei Kotomine vs. Kiritsugu Emiya: 9
- So glad someone chose this, one of my absolute favorites. I love watching these two go at it, and especially watching Kiritsugu innovate his way through a fight with such a strong opponent. The only slam against it is that anticlimactic ending, which admittedly works with the series, but cuts off the fight before it ends. Short but incredibly sweet.
Saitama vs. Boros: 9
- In terms of just a knock down, drag out fight, I don’t think it gets much better than this. Getting to see Saitama do more than just kill something in one hit was exceptional, and much as this was a relatively simple fight (Boros just hits him with everything he has and keeps powering up, while Saitama is mostly just dodging or taking it), it’s awesome. That hit to the moon is just amazing.
Pro R4:
Akame vs. Esdeath: 6
Was never the biggest fan of this one. It has spectacle, and it’s nice to see Akame and Esdeath cut loose, but the sudden power boost from Akame comes out of nowhere and Esdeath just doesn’t come off as the utter badass she usually is. It’s a decent fight with awesome swordplay and some real stakes, but I’m not sure I’d even say it’s the best of the series, especially with an ending that I found strange, given the whole freezing time ability.
Kakashi vs. Obito: 10
Incredibly well-animated and with some amazing interplay between scenes from their childhood and the fight proper, I think this is either the best or one of the best fights from Shippuden. The choreography gives it an extra point, and I think the fact that this doesn’t have any massive spectacle gives it a leg up over other fights from the later Naruto series. It’s raw and unfiltered, involving some of the most basic and strategic skill display.
Total = 61
Pro R1:
Netero vs. Meruem: 8
- It’s a pretty awesome fight, if a little abbreviated and simple. Lots of techniques from Netero, just overwhelming strength and speed from Meruem. Really good display of 2 incredibly powerful characters.
Rock Lee vs. Gaara: 10
- What I would say is the best fight in Naruto and a contender for the best even when compared with Shipuuden. Good animation for the time, intense pitched fight between two largely unknown powerhouses with incredibly different styles of fighting, and some good emotional stakes thrown in. As a demonstration of what these two can do and who they are, it’s amazing. Iconic fight, to be sure.
Pro R2:
Ichigo vs. Aizen final fight: 4
- It’s not a bad fight, but it is all glitz and glamor without much else going for it. Ichigo at his coolest and calmest was, honestly, more boring than he should have been, and watching Aizen effectively eschew any mind games was frustrating.
Gon vs. Pitou: 7
- Generally great beatdown fight with some incredible set pieces. The power boost is one of the few that’s justified well by power system. It gets a slight step down from Netero vs. Meruem because it’s more simplistic – just a physical matchup.
Pro R3:
Luffy vs. Doflamingo: 7
- Certainly one of the better fights from One Piece, though this is more about moments than it is about the actual flow of the battle. Gear Four is incredible to watch, and Doflamingo is my favorite villain in the whole series, but beyond Doflamingo’s awakened Devil Fruit, this is really just a “let’s wait for Luffy’s power to come back” fight. It’s incredibly cool to watch, but it doesn’t have much meat to it.
Be watching this one develop with great interest.
Yeah, that's my favorite part as well. Just incredible for its atmosphere setting.
Thank you for the vote and the extensive analysis!
Honestly, that doesn’t sound incredibly long to me, but then I tend to spend a lot more time in total between reading a debate and writing an RFD to explain my decision. That being said, I know I don’t personally expect voters to listen extensively to every song. You and anyone else are welcome to listen to as much or as little as you want. The goal was to provide good listening, not to get extensive analysis of each song or a thorough comparison between what we presented. If voting on this proves to be onerous, then I honestly think it’s not worth doing. I know I didn’t enter into this with the aim of getting voters who had painstakingly listened to every single song and carefully considered their choice.
Just to bump this (with the faint and somewhat vain hope of getting a vote or two that are actually votes) and introduce you to an amazing OST from Gankutsuou. Forgot about this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-sWaSCI5A&t=335s
Yeah, I'd rather people just vote on what they actually liked rather than inserting other reasoning into the mix.
I love this idea. Finally have to sift through some incredible anime music - haven’t picked my favorites yet, but that’s part of the fun! Looking forward to seeing yours.
Here's the list I came up with after some thought. It's most likely still incomplete.
https://myanimelist.net/animelist/whiteflame55?status=2
Should make one of those lists, though it'd be hard to find everything. My watching has been rather eclectic over the years.
I will say it's not quite that simple. Much as it's basically indisputable that FMA:B is a better done series in almost every way, the points where it's lacking the most come early. It rushes through a lot of the character building moments at the beginning of the series, particularly the story with Shou Tucker and some of the early stuff with their master, Izumi Curtis. It's not devastating, but it does make the emotional moments early on lose some punch. Not that I don't have any problems with FMA:B, but it might be one of the most tightly crafted anime series I've ever seen in any medium.
I finished the manga for Fairy Tail. It's a pretty decent series, to be sure, but it's a little trope-y for my liking, and I think other series have done this kind of story far better. Some of the fight scenes are truly triumphant, and I'm a fan of some of the characters, I just found that I was never as invested in this as I should have been. It certainly isn't trash, just nothing special.
Admittedly, haven't watched Hunter X Hunter, though I've been told I need to rectify that. I'm still a big fan of One Piece, though I think the anime has pacing issues. Honestly, that's one instance in which I'd say that the manga is stronger. I've gone through phases with Naruto, and though I have issues with a great deal of the story, the themes stick with me pretty well and the fight scenes are, at least to my knowledge, largely unmatched. Bleach is... well, I finished the manga, and let's just say I've been severely disappointed by it. Up through the end of the Rescue Rukia Arc, it was one of my all-time favorite anime. Past that point, it ranges from decent to incredibly frustrating. Akame ga Kill was admittedly a better manga than an anime, though it's pretty decent. I wouldn't call it one of my favorites. If I had to give a shortlist, my favorites would include Fate Zero, Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan, Cowboy Bebop, Mob Psycho 100, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and Made in Abyss.
No joke, FMA:B is one of the best series out there. I was a fan of the original series as well, though this is a substantial improvement. Fairy Tail has its moments, though I can't say it's one of my favorites. Lots of good series out there, always happy to talk anime.
I'd take this if I'd seen JoJo's. In terms of additions, here's a short list of things that should rise to the level of A-Tier (at least if we're comparing with those you've given):
Death Note
Code Geass
Fullmetal Alchemist
Sword Art Online
Angel Beats
Elfen Lied
Attack on Titan
Fairy Tail
Cowboy Bebop
Evangelion
Hellsing
Rurouni Kenshin
K-On
Darker than Black
Pokemon
Yugioh
I don't know... you didn't give me a lot of time to consider this. Only 106 days? How can I possibly manage?
In all seriousness, give me reminders and I'll get to this.
Don't mean to come off as an anime snob (honestly, I like many of the anime you've posted), but I'm honestly wondering where all the classics are, not to mention some of the non-Shonen hits. I'll fully admit to being a Shonen fanboy first and foremost, though I can't help but notice the lack of other genres.
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, an actual vote would be nice. Your choice, though.
Sounds good to me. Again, don't intend on introducing new stuff, but I might have more data to present in later rounds.
I mean, I'm good with R1 being arguments only, but I'd like if we can introduce new points going out to R3 (not that I'm expecting to do that, but I want the option).
Well, that’s disappointing. I’d be happy to have this debate with you sometime, if you’d like to remake after this finishes.
...I didn’t say that. It’s his territory because he’s debating it now.
Quite a bit, actually. Not going to get into any specifics because that’s RM’s territory, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that there’s value in the relationship. The question is whether that value outweighs or is outweighed by the harms of said relationship.
Thanks everyone for your votes and your feedback!
Didn’t you say you were going to specify your position in the first round? Not to give your opponent fodder or anything, but it’s still unclear what your specific position is, since you seem OK with eating animals in some circumstances that you haven’t specified.
Hey, if someone's going to hold the line on basic facts about viruses, why not me?