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While I can agree that women should obey their husband, and I also agree about morality coming from Allah.
- From there it follows: if it's Allah's morality is to punish apostates, so it should yours.
The stat I am concerned about is punishing those who leave the faith. What would that pu ishment entail and why? Isn't them being condemned to hell a good enough punishment as is?
- Your argument is: temporal punishment is unwarranted since an absolute punishment exists? That entails Law & penalties are superfluous. Maybe, a hasty judgement? Also, a finite punishment does not impact an infinite one, to add to your words...
Also, while homosexuality should certainly be discouraged through social pressure, I'm not exactly sure why a Muslim would advocate stoning the..
- You sound sincere in your question so I'm going to answer sincerely in good faith, as I know you can be a troll. In injecting an Islamic practice into an assumed secular paradigm you're begging the question. This is not a question on the effective practices, this is rather a question on the underlined values behind those practices. What do Muslims believe about foundational values?
- We believe our souls established a covenant (Ahd) with Allah to worship only Him. Then brought to this life as delegates (Khilafa) to Allah in this Earthly domain to cultivate & colonize the land (Istimar), acting on by proxy rights (Haq) granted by Allah. In this life our yearning for God is actually the memory of our covenant, as if something we miss we are incomplete without. This memory is our innate state of being (Fitrah), which manifests in our faculty to seek the divine & recognize it when we see it. This faculty is reason (Aql), gift entrusted to us to be fulfilled upon maturity. We are responsible (Taklif) to uphold that trust (Amana) by preserving our innate state of being (Fitrah) -thus our covenant- until we return to Allah again after death. Maintaining our covenant is to worship Allah alone (Ibada). Upon death, our last state of being (Khatima) is what counts, wether we have succeeded in the preservation of our innate state of being (Fitrah) or destroyed it, wether our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds or the opposite. In that course, Allah tests us with ease & trial (Ibtila) to reveal wether we are sincere & to remind us not to steer away from Him. Worship in essence is recognition of the divine –in the absolute, thus recognition of the self –in self-annihilation. This realization is submission to Allah (Islam) manifesting in gratitude & humility. Failure to achieve this realization is delusion, manifesting in arrogance & ingratitude. Gratitude is accomplished by repaying Allah's debt (Deen) on the self [Deen = religion]. Only Allah can tell us how to be grateful, hence revelation (Naql). If reason (Aql) is a gift to seek Allah, revelation (Naql) is a gift to know Allah. If revelation in essence is a message to adore the One (Tawhid), then reason in essence is to make-One (Tawhid, in the literal sense).
[To elaborate on that last bit, Tawhid literally means: make one. we believe that our memory of the One as our innate state of being is Reason itself. Thus, the essence of Reason is in: the conception of universals -that is to make-One particulars, & also the anticipation of explanations & causes (law of causation). It is as if, our memory of the One gives us the unique ability to see Him in the world, to see unity in the many, thus infer universals from particulars; that our memory of the One creates a want within us as if we miss Him that we seek explanations in everything we see in anticipation of an ultimate explanation: Him – to make-One, that is Tawhid].
- Transgression is to infringe on the right of another; the Earth being the domain of Allah (along with all things), any human exercise of rights therein is therefore transgressive. However, since Allah has made us delegates on the Earth we can act by proxy in his domain. Thus, as long as human exercises of rights are within the boundaries set by Allah, they are non-transgressive. – From this respect, Sharia, being inspired from a divine message, unavoidably must seek to preserve our innate state of being, while empowering us to settle on the Earth. Sharia must remove impediments to the soul's purpose of finding Allah in the temporal life. It follows, boundaries must be set to safeguard these purposes & transgression against these boundaries must be penalized, hence the 6 sacred rights:
- 1. Faith, for only in guaranteeing freedom of faith does the soul have the choice to uphold the covenant or break it.
- 2. Life, for only in survival does the soul have the chance to seek her purpose in finding Allah after maturity & to prosper on the Earth.
- 3. Reason, for only in preservation of reason that the soul may find its memory of Allah after maturity & settle rationally on the Earth.
- 4. Family – (for progeny, from a man & woman union), for only with nurtured & stable progeny that future souls may also get their chance at finding He who they have lost & also at settling & prospering on Earth.
- 5. Property – (material wealth), for only in guaranteeing earthly rights that can soul follow its purpose while being settled on the Earth.
- 6. Honor – (moral wealth), idem.
- We also believe that we get rewarded for our own good deeds, but also for the deeds others do thanks to ourselves. If I teach my child a virtue then I too get a reward whenever that virtue is actualized. & if he teaches his child, I get both, & so on ad infinitum. For the sake of preserving future souls & for the sake of gaining more rewards, Family preservation is necessary, thus a sacred right in Sharia. Any impediments to the sanctity of Family must be removed by Sharia, thus transgressions against the integrity of the family must be penalized; particularly, extra-marital intercourse type. Two such transgressions stand out above the rest: adultery & sodomy, for one leads to unsafe progeny & the other to no progeny at all. Therefore, adultery & sodomy must not be allowed, thus penalized. Hence, Hadd (penalty) in Sharia literally means 'stop' or 'limit'. However, given the very nature of these acts being generally carried out in private. Sharia deals a two-fold block to the practice:
- In private: if the practice was performed in private, then it must stay very in private. One, repentance in secret is mandatory. Two, exposure of the act by another party is punishable as calumny (qathf – in 80 lashes). Three, confessions are extremely discouraged, views of ulama range from accepting 4 consecutive & consistent confessions to not accepting any at all. Four, even if the confession is accepted recanting is possible up to the last moment, the transgressor need just call it off or leave the circle of penalty for it to stop. Five, in case the spouse was the witness, the outcome is permanent separation (Lian) without any need for public or legal recourse. Six, in case the spouse finds out after birth, the child is his by Sharia, unless in divorce. Seven, circumstantial or indirect (such as video) evidence is unacceptable & liable to punishment. Eight, having any number of testimonies less than 4 righteous, simultaneous corroborating & accidental witnesses on the act of penetration is punishable as calumny (80 lashes each) – which is a prohibitively impossible condition to fulfill unless the act is done in public. Nine, ignorance of the prohibition of the act in Sharia is like no act has occurred...etc. – In short, Sharia enacts all possible venues to keep private extra-marital intercourse as private as possible, deterring any revelatory factors, thus insuring integrity of the family & safeguarding the honor of those involved to allow for repentance & to protect their children's wellbeing; but also to block the spread of the act or any potential normalization.
- In public: if the act was performed in public, in a reasonably crowded place, where the condition: 4 righteous, simultaneous corroborating & accidental witnesses on the act of penetration fulfilled (for instance, not in a brothel where witnesses' testimonies would be invalid), then the punishment is stoning to death (Rajm). – In reality, only two such cases were recorded in the Ottoman empire during its 6 centuries of reign, one of which was a set-up. No one would actually go to those lengths for a bit of pleasure! Given that this kind of scenario's likelihood is of mythical proportions, the true purpose of Sharia is to prompt hopelessness into any attempt to advertise, promote or normalize these acts; also, the image of stoning is so harsh & horrifying, that in itself is a powerful deterrent from even thinking about committing such acts, even in private.
Please respond to the punishment stuff.
- I see our fellow quoted another post of mine >>> In the spirit of education again, there are three legal perspectives on apostasy among the Fuqaha. Any objections?
When you look at how predominantly muslim societies will often stone queers to death and do honor killings, I think they mean punished by death in those statistics.
- Aren't you very funny! You may wanna think about how the world sees the US, as the most violent nation on Earth. The occasional once a year "honor killing" headline in American TV from some other country, is met with an abundant stream of daily, if not hourly, violent crimes headlines in that other country. It's revolting. The delusion is almost pitiable. Another thing I don't get about his nonsense... it's not like these murders you love to call "honor killing" are legal, they are just murder. As a matter of fact, honor killings are un-Islamic practices imported from the West during Colonialism, a legacy of Civil Law (Swiss, Germanic & French) in these countries. Disgusting! It was not, in fact, until very recently that countries like Italy & Brazil criminalized murder for honor, like WTF?!! Other Western countries opted for change of language instead, passion instead of honor. Honor killings is murder, the "honor" label doesn't add or diminish anything from the act of taking a life. They don't like calling it honor killing in the West, so they instead call it crime of passion or crime of pride. We'll save the "terrorist" label for those we don't like, aka Muslims. We'll save the "honor killings" label for them too. Rightly so, mass killings by Whites happen virtually every other day, yet that one Muslim "terrorist" in 3 years is so much more... murder rates of women in crimes of passion or pride or greed is dozens if not hundreds of times higher than those "honor killings" in these countries, but they have the bad label, they must be so much worse. Lmao! How effing dumb is this?! In truth, you have most heinous types of murder in the US, mass murderers shoot others for no reason whatsoever, serial killers by the thousands murder for sheer pleasure. Do disturbing, it's as if the US is in a planet of its own in crimes.
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