Instigator / Pro
7
1387
rating
34
debates
22.06%
won
Topic
#1129

The FBI should make it's database of child porn viewable to the public.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
24
Better sources
2
16
Better legibility
2
8
Better conduct
0
8

After 8 votes and with 49 points ahead, the winner is...

oromagi
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
56
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description

Please message me before accepting this debate. I want to debate somebody who doesn't have any sort of mental disabilities.

its even wrong to suggest such a thing,there have to be limits!

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@oromagi

I mean, I remember reading that they were so inseparable there was a school rumor that they had a sexual relationship. But I've never seen any evidence to make me think that rumor was true.

Eric Harris wrote in his journal:
"Gays.... well all gays, ALL gays, should be killed. Mit keine fragen. Lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human. It’s a fucking disease."

It's hard to imagine him engaging in a homosexual relationship with Dylan.

They were definitely extremely close and absorbed with each other, their personalities synergizing on a deep -- and disastrous -- level. "Soulmates" would not be an invalid description. But I don't think it was sexual. I think that would probably have gone against their violent macho tough-guy psychology.

And no, I haven't seen it. It's a... fictional reenactment of Columbine? Seems like a weird subject for a film. Why did the filmmaker make it?

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@Pinkfreud08

I think it shook people so much because there was no satisfying explanation. Even when I put all the ingredients in your list together it still just doesn't add up to me. Motive aside, where did their sheer resolve and follow-through come from? I would have expected a couple of kids to get cold feet, to have second thoughts as the date approached, to be afraid of dying even if they hated life.

As for your optimism that they felt regret... well, I guess they did leave goodbye videos for their families saying they were sorry. That always seemed weird to me. Sorry for what? What they were about to do? They definitely weren't sorry about that. Maybe they were just acknowledging the impact their actions would have on their families -- but that still doesn't count as showing remorse for their victims. I wouldn't hold my breath.

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@Castin
@Pinkfreud08

Have u seen Gus Van Sant’s “Elephant?” I recommend it. A sort of fictional retelling of Columbine. There’s a scene where the shooters quietly make out in the shower just before arming themselves. I think if the two were in love - each trying to impress the other by cold disaffection- they make a kind of perverse sense. I was in love like that at about their age in about the same time and place. We weren’t inspired by violence, but I certainly did many foolish and illegal things only to impress him. I certainly understand the allure of some rite or event that says, “its you and me alone and fuck all else fuck even death so long as u r there “

The Smiths have that line

If a double decker bus crashes into us
To die by your side
Is such a wonderful way to die
And if a ten ton truck
Kills the both of us
To die by your side
Well the pleasure the privilege is mine

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@Castin

I've studied the Columbine incident for a while and to be completely honest I am still pondering about what made them so far gone.

It's hard to point towards one concrete reason why as there were hundreds of reasons. Bullying, mental illness, loneliness ETC.

I like to believe the last thing that went through their minds other than bullets was a feeling of regret for their actions and realizing how truly indistinguishable they were from their past selves.

Although that may be a little bit too optimistic on my part.

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@Wylted
@Pinkfreud08

Whoops, forgot about this. Now I'm necro-bumping a dead debate.

Thanks. Sounds like my doubts were correct (should be my epitaph). And there is footage of Dylan and Eric in I think the cafeteria? It does show one of the boys shooting, but at one of their propane tanks, not at people. Turns out they weren't the slick bomb builders they thought they were, were they. But they still got their wish. They went down in infamy and became the focus of widespread attention and fascination.

Strangely, one of the hardest things for me to understand about this was how unaffected they seemed by survival instinct or animal self-preservation.

ew just ew, if you want to watch kids being raped you should be put in a special rape cell in prison for the other pervs to go after

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@Castin

There is no real footage of the shooting taking place. The closest we have is some muffled audio taking place in the library. The footage you're referring to in question is from a movie called " Zero Day"

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@Castin

The one I just watched with audio, the volume seems too clear and from what little I gathered I think the footage is from an independent movie called "zero day" . I am sure there is footage in the public domain I have not seen. That appears to be fake though.

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@Castin

I watched beheadings and killed a man, I think I will be fine. Then again. 2 guys one hammer I actually had to turn off and couldn't watch

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@Wylted

Check the video out, it's on Liveleak (google liveleak+columbine). Let me know if the footage looks fabricated to you, like the others you've seen.

But I really, really need to warn you: it's *extremely* graphic, even if fake. I'm serious. The first time I watched it I had to stop it pretty soon into the recording. Too intense, too much reality.

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@Castin

I have seen a few things like that come out that seem fake. That probably is as well. The o ly real leak I have heard of is one of the victims parents who saw the tapes made a secret recording in front of police without them noticing and then he played the clio in church I believe. I know that regardless of what ORO thinks the FBI has copies. It is still co sided an ongoing investigation and that judge has no authority to make them destroy their copy which they will neither confirm. Or deny they have. There is the common sense angle that the FBI would have copies or originals of the same evidence the local cops had since they were also conducting their own investigation, but there is evidence that multiple copies of each tape were made

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@billbatard

You don't know what you are talking about LOL. First of all, all studies show correlation. Causation is something that is pretty much unprovable, but correlation does suggest causation many times. I think the whole causation does not equal correlation argument I the face of good evidence is just a technique to try and wave the evidence away without critically examining it. You are also wrong about sociopaths. People can be born without much capacity for empathy. In fact that is pretty much 100% of babies. All babies are sociopaths. So to say you can't be born one is silly. Not all sociopaths have antisocial conduct nor do all psychopaths though all people with antisocial personality disorder are pretty much at the least low level sociopaths. The DSM5 has left out the word sociopath but I am not talking about aspd like the term seems conflated with lately. I am referring to people who lack the ability to have empathy like normal humans do.

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@Wylted

sociopaths ar emade and if you treat them right they wont grow up to be sociopaths psycopaths are born but even with them there can be a trigger a proper upbrinign will prevent anti social conduct often

first of all ew just ew and second i think this is hard to quantify since child porn is illegal everywhere, and should be and may i please say loudly and clearly CORELATION IS NOT CAUSATION YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVE A CAUSAL LINK BETWEEN EASY ACCESS to child porn and lower sex assault levels a third variable most certainly must be in play, i say we just hunt down and kill al pedophiles and be done with it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

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@Wylted

Yeah, I believe Eric Harris was formally (and posthumously) diagnosed as a born psychopath. I certainly don't blame Eric's parents for the way he was born -- but I do wonder if he would have been able to stockpile guns in his room and make explosives in the garage if they had been more attentive and involved in his life. But look at me gettin' all judgy. You might put me back on your Starbucks list.

Did you see that supposedly leaked tape of the whole shooting from inside the school. Unsourced and zero credibility, of course, but I never could quite tell if it was fake.

No amount of parenting skill can make a malevolent sociopath no longer a sociopath.

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@Castin

The debate is dead. It is okay to derail the section. I don't blame his parents. I would hope to sink into obscurity after something like that. I also think Dylan was a troubled teen but Eric Harris was a malevolent sociopath. Most of them are too self centered to intentionally ruin their life with a mass shooting but he had something unique about him. Also don't go to Starbucks tomorrow. I think you are pretty cool

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@Wylted

Yeah I saw her TED Talk. Heavy stuff, really uncomfortable to watch. It had to be hard to stand up like that and describe her shame about totally failing as a mother.

Have you noticed that Eric Harris's parents have never made any public statements or appearances? They just disappeared. Whoosh, gone. They had the most to answer for, imo.

Oh, I'd want to see the tapes too. Of course I would, they'd be fucking fascinating. I'm no less guilty of digging into the case. There's always that driving need to understand how they could possibly have brought themselves to do this. But as with anything, it comes down to the risk/reward ratio. I didn't mean to derail your comments section with loads of Columbine stuff btw. My bad.

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@Castin

I have no doubt some of that would exist. I think one of their moms did a Ted talk if that interests you. I think that there should be more openness by the government and I am okay accepting the increased danger of doing that when those things arise. Basically I want to see those fucking tapes. I'm sure they would bore me but I dig into these cases. Sometimes watching 12 hour interrogations in the public domain, or watching and reading through trial transcripts. I am so pissed I can't get into their heads. A transcript which we have no evidence is even legit and unaltered does not help me. As far as the personality of Eric Harris. I think it is the typical sociopathic personality. Those close to him may become susceptible to it but not over a video. The info provided in the video is also useless and easily obtained in the anarchist cookbook which they pulled it from themselves.

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@Wylted

It was definitely a shame to lose their historical and scientific value. A supposed transcript of the tapes does still exist. It's pretty chilling. At one point they speculate about how their parents will respond once they discover the tapes after the shooting, mocking their reaction: "Oh if only we'd reached them sooner! If only we'd found these tapes!"

But you must know that if those tapes were made public, the vast majority of viewers would not be educated, mentally fortified, psychological scientists. You'd be exposing them to average untrained people who are susceptible to strong dominant personalities like Eric Harris's. The tapes would be enshrined by every angry malcontent kid in the English speaking world.

destroyed the question is, if high IQ people have a stated reason that is wrong, does that mean they are lying about the stated reason? I say it most likely has to mean that.

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@Castin

I think that is the stated reason, but they are wrong. This type of thing needed to be studied so we can fix the problem, but whoever decided to destroy them is likely responsible for several mass shootings because of what could have been learned to prevent these things was destroyrd.

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@Wylted

They destroyed the basement tapes because they were afraid if they got out it would inspire future mass shooters. Their brainwashy power was extreme.

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@Wylted

just why

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@RationalMadman

Which debates were those?

For the record, the new policy relates to perma banned users. In other words, if type1 comes in and creates 20 new spam debates, we will delete all those spam debates.

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@David
@bsh1

Oopsie, you slipped up.

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@David
@bsh1

So did the debates I had with Type1 alts.

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@RationalMadman

The debate started before Wylted was banned. The debate will not be deleted.

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@David
@bsh1

Against a banned user. Delete the debate.

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@Barney

The broken links are explained by Wylted's cut & pasted argument from a prior DDO debate (working a different resolution).

https://www.debate.org/debates/The-United-States-Federal-Government-should-legalize-child-porn-Wylted-vs-Bluesteel-and-Mikal/1/

I assume he did not double check the now five year old links. This also goes a long ways towards explaining why so many arguments seem to address the legality of child porn rather than the advantages of publishing an alleged FBI database. Even if Wylted did verify the existence of such a database 5 years ago (which is not evident), I assume based on broken links that he did not double check in present. Hopefully, that verification will be documented as part of PRO's R2.

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@Barney

Paywalls are easy to get around for studies. Most colleges and libraries give you access to those for free, but yes they are a bit of a problem

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@Wylted
@oromagi

As the #2 judge on this site, feasibility is often (but not exclusively) vital to proposal debates. I would go so far as to call it an unstated part of BoP. However, if both debaters treat something as possible, I follow their arguments and accept the possibility; but if it becomes a debate argument, the confidence of that argument acts as a negative multiplier to the rest.

I remember a classic Imabench debate about if women can do everything a man can do. Bench challenged the feasibility by pointing out women could not whip their dicks out and f. the bus driver. The opponent conceded that women could not do this, thus conceding that it was infeasible for women to do everything a man can do (in my head I thought of ways they could still do this, and probably do it better... but the debaters made their cases, and that was what I had to grade).

Anyway, to quote the style guide (http://tiny.cc/DebateArt):
"A quality opening round must address the Why and How.
> If the Why is missing, they are easily countered by the lack of benefit.
> If the How is missing, they are easily countered with impracticality and limited resources."

On another note, lightly skimming I saw the sources argument (more debates should do this). I only identified one paywall, but that many broken links seems unlikely to stem from website shuffling (pages move, but this many so fast?).

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@oromagi

No, I have always prodded in the comment section to test for how an opponent thinks, to better defeat them. This is the psychological warfare component of debate. I now realize you are one of those annoying opponents who wastes space complaining about the feasibility of a plan when it really is more important that you consider the impacts of a plan, seeing as how judges could give a shit less about feasibility. That's why idiots who argue for abolishing the electoral college or setting term limits can still win debates, because feasibility is not considered.

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@Wylted

Hey, Wylted-

Thx for the feedback but I try to limit talk about ongoing debates outside of the debate. (first rule of Fight Club) As instigator of a policy debate, its your job to sell us your plan and it's my job to poke holes. If you say you have a plan to go the Moon, I am going to want to see your spaceship. If you don't have a spaceship or forgot to check that's a hole in your plan I am going to poke. You are selling your plan for the FBI's child porn database, so yeah, I am going to ask if the damn thing is even real.

Going forward, I hope we can keep it all in the debate & we can talk shop after the voting is over. Thanks!

I'm sure this will be a wholesome debate. :P

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@oromagi

What is with you always doubting the FBI has shit. They have the basement tapes jerk. They made a copy because they assisted in the investigation and needed their own copy and some local retard judge who wants us not to be able to investigate the cause of mass shootings by examining the basement tapes, did not and could not order the FBI to erase their copy. It is still considered an open investigation so the FBI will not confirm or deny the existence of the tapes or any other columbine facts but common sense tells us they have them. This is why I hate debate. Do you know how many fucking characters it will take to prove they have child porn. You are a dick for raising that objection. Also how much time did you spend digging into this shit. i wanted a relaxing debate not one I had to put work into

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@semperfortis

Yes, but I obviously will keep my opinions on what is wrong with tjis to myself. I do support making sex dolls of children available and other similar things based on the arguments in this debate, but would be against the FBI hosting a child porn website.

who knows with Wylted

who knows with Wylted

Always interesting to see controversial resolutions. Are you playing Devil's Advocate?

Always interesting to see controversial resolutions. Are you playing Devil's Advocate?

https://www.debate.org/debates/The-United-States-Federal-Government-should-legalize-child-porn-Wylted-vs-Bluesteel-and-Mikal/1/

and you wonder why your last on the leaderboards?

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@oromagi

Still 5 more days good. I am sitting in a public library and just found myself extremely nervous about advocating for child porn.

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@Wylted

Well we never know til we try

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@oromagi

I am glad you accepted. You are one of the few active debaters who I actually respect the skill of. The structure of the debate with 30000 characters and 2 week arguments are tough. Are you sure you are up for it?