Instigator / Pro
42
1684
rating
15
debates
100.0%
won
Topic
#1164
Debate Art should change their “gender” option and replace it with “sex”, where only “male” or “female” are options
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 6 votes and with 34 points ahead, the winner is...
semperfortis
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 15,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
8
1709
rating
564
debates
68.17%
won
Description
Full resolution:
Debate Art should change their “gender” option and replace it with “sex”, where only “male” or “female” are options
BoP is shared.
In “edit profile”, Debate Art currently provides a ‘gender’ field with multiple options for a user to choose from. For Pro to fulfill their BoP they must reasonably assert why this field should be replaced with a “sex” field with “male” and “female” as its only options. As Con, they ought to argue why the current gender field, with it's current options ought
not to be replaced by a sex field. Moreover, it is to be assumed that there can only exist either the sex field or the gender field; hence it should be argued why one should take precedence over the other.
Sex - “the sex as determined by the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.”
Gender - “either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.”
This debate should be impossible to accept; unwarranted acceptance will infer immediate forfeutiure. If you are interested in accepting please comment on the debate.
Format:
R1: Pro waives, Con provides opening argument
R2: Pro provides opening argument with rebuttal, Con rebuts
R3: Defence/rebuttal
R4: Defence, with closing statements (no new rebuttals)
Round 1
Waive.
What I am about to produce is going to seem like something that took me a few minutes to think of and type. I assure you I have put full effort in behind the scenes and have a series of rebuttals prepared, depending on the angle my opponent takes, to cement this victory home.
I am about to produce to you a very simple explanation of why this resolution is irrefutably false unless you take the only path that is available to oppose my case; opposing every other element of Debate Art's ethos.
So, while not indestructible, the 'destruction' of my case is going to require Pro to contradict many others parts of Debate Art (DA) in order to have an angle to take me down. In doing so, Pro will be proving that he is anti Debate Art and need to take the stance that the site in general and other websites like it are in some way corrupt in their motives, implementation or both.
To put this in the easiest ways for voters to digest, my case is that the profile page is about what you want to appear as and DA is not a standard social media platform but a shrine to debate, free of real life identity, politics etc. This is evident not only in the fact that every other thing on the profile is widely accepted to be what you want to appear as (as opposed to blackmailing you into any kind of scenario where you need to reveal things about you IRL) but also by the entire doxxing clause of the Rules and Code of Conduct page [https://www.debateart.com/rules]. Why would there be so many layers to protect you against the very thing that other social media platforms seek to pressure you into revealing, with both stick and carrot methods (you may not know it but Twitter, FB etc can all ban you for having a profile that isn't your real name, profile picture and details... Yeah, even YouTube... It's just that they don't tend to act on it unless the account is acting fishy).
Since Debate Art is more of a Reddit-esque social media than a Facebook-esque one, it becomes clear that the concept is about letting you say things and not have real-life backlash for them as such. Thus, no matter how ridiculous it seems as it's only your biological sex, it is againt DA's ethos to have you give biological sex in your profile especially when pitted against the option of having had Gender instead.
Gender is the societal character attached either to a biological sex or some other in-between variety... Alternatively, of course are people who are 'this-to-that' trans and completely and utterly identify as the opposite gender but most trans people are actually simply 'over the line in the sand' in the other direction and tend to be pressured to pick a side between male and female so they pick the other gender to convey what they wish to be seen more as when really they wished to just be genderfluid and free of 'he or she'. I won't provide evidence of that in this Round but note that this is not transphobic, I admitted some really are biologically female but gender-wise male, it's just that I am certain most trans people (not all) are simply over 55% between 0% one gender and 100% but not really super near 100% another and what they are pressured to do is take the other gender role because they like their biological sex's assigned one even less than the other. There's so, so much to why people don't identify as their biological sex, so I don't see what on earth would be a motive on a profile page on a website that frees you of your real identity to opt for biological sex instead of the gender you wish to be identified as.
Now, interestingly there's an angle furthermore to take if you think lying is immoral. If lying is immoral, it would be even more beneficial to have 'Gender' as the option and not 'Sex'. People can literally not lie about their gender on a profile page unless you count people who will for trolling's sake or proving some point's sake take the gender that they actually don't identify as, one example on this website is Thett3 who regularly on this website has said he is happy to be identified openly as a male despite his profile saying his Gender is female (I'll link to it, if need be, in later Rounds). I am unsure what drives such individuals but they are a severe minority and the point I'm making is if you want to set up a profile page where people are basically not going to ever lie, since Gender is de facto what you wish to be identified as, then morally (if you think lying is evil) it is optimal to have Gender as the profile option.
Round 2
== Aff ==
Preface
Before I begin, I would like to identify key parts about this
debate. Per the description, Con ought to advocate for the “gender” field;
comprised of the following options: “male”, “female” or “other” using social or
cultural factors to be able to distinguish between these three categories.
Thus, my arguments aim to show that one cannot coherently distinguish between said categories using “social” or “cultural” factors. Hence, nullifying
the coherency of the field as a whole. Moreover, I aim to show that the “sex”
field can absolutely distinguish between “male” and “female”, thus it is
the only coherent option.
A1. Sex is rooted in biology whereas gender is not
1.1 “Sex” is scientifically precise
Per the biological definition for “sex” provided; the distinction
between male and females rely on the genotype of the somatic cells. Simply,
those who possess somatic cells with XX genotypes are female, and those with XY
are male [1]. Thus, the notion of “sex”
is reducible to facts grounded in the physical world. The importance of
this will be shown later.
1.1.1 Intersex
It could be argued that intersex people can’t coherently align
with either “male” or “female” which could seem problematic for my position.
However, it is a misconception that intersex are neither male nor female; let’s
examine the types of intersex:
i) 46, XX DSD
This is where the person possesses the chromosomes of a woman, but
the external genitalia appears male [2]. Obviously, one with this form of intersex can still be deemed female.
ii) 46, XY DSD
Identical to XX intersex, except one is male [2].
iii) 46, XX ovotesticular DSD
Here is where more of a compelling argument can be made; as a
person with this form is born with both ovarian and testicular tissue; and can
even have both XX and XY chromosomes [3]. However, per the definition of sexes
provided, the genotype only applies to “somatic cells” which do not
include reproductive cells.
iv) Sex chromosome DSD
This is where a male or a female is born with either an extra or
missing X chromosome. Regardless, one that still has a Y chromosome is denoted
as male [3].
1.2 “Gender” is scientifically imprecise
Here, I argue that “gender” is irreducible to physical fact.
Gender, relies on “social” and “cultural”
factors when determining whether one is “male”, “female” or “other”. These factors are wholly unquantifiable and
subjective; how could one distinguish themselves as absolutely “male”, “female”
or “other” using subjective factors with it actually having coherent value? To
say that something is “more X”, “less X”, “X but not Y” one needs to *demonstrate
a method with which he/she/other can determine the value of X*.
1.2.1 Supervenience
In science, observations are reducible; for example, if we were to
analyse the temperature of a closed system, we would find that temperature is
actually reducible to the vibration of particles. Thus, temperature supervenes on grounded empirical axioms (law of thermodynamics). B-Properties supervene on A-Properties
[4]; temperature equates to a B-Property supervening on the A-Property
that is particle vibration. B-properties change if and only if A-Properties
are changed; you increase the vibration of the particles (add energy to the
system), the temperature changes (the temperature of the system increases). Indeed,
to talk of the temperature of a system being 0 degrees and not 100 degrees is
coherent as temperature is reducible to a quantifiable measurement grounded in
the physical world.
The issue here is it is impossible for “male”, “female” or “other”
to supervene on “social” or “cultural” factors as *these factors are
not reducible to any fact about the physical world*. Thus, to distinguish whether one is male, or female, or other,
without any scientific (i.e biological) supervenience is absurd. Since sex supervenes on the empirical state of
one’s somatic cells, it successfully supervenes on a grounded, quantifiable
property. Thus, one can coherently make the distinction of “male” or “female” using
the “sex” field.
1.3 Logical Formulation
P1: X supervenes a grounded A-Property
P2: This A-Property is either biological or cultural and social
P3: Biological
C1: X does not supervene on cultural and social factors
P4: If C1 then “gender” is incoherent
C2: Gender is incoherent
(let X be the distinction between male and female)
1.3 Premise One
This ought to be true per the resolution; in order to coherently distinguish
one identity from the other, there ought to be an objective measure to quantify
them. Thus, it must supervene on an objective fact that is grounded in the
physical world.
1.3 Premise two
Per the definitions provided, this is the only possible
trichotomy.
1.3 Premise Three
As aforementioned, cultural and social factors do not supervene on
anything empirical, thus “male”, “female”, or “other” cannot be coherently
assigned to anyone.
1.3 Premise Four
If “gender” entails absurdities in providing coherent distinctions
between “male”, “female” and “other” its purpose is unjustified; especially in
light that the “sex” field can.
1.3 C1 & C2
Thus follow logically from the premises.
A2. Other examples are absurd
Since “gender” has no scientific underpinning, I will show that
other examples of subjective notions of objective properties are nonsensical. Take date of birth (DoB) for instance; we all
have an objective date of birth, thus we all have an objective age. Despite the
fact that there are subjective qualities inherently tied with age (e.g maturity)
one cannot “identify” as any other age apart from their actual age. For
example, to equate this to gender, all one would need to do is create a new “subjective
notion” that takes “social and cultural” factors into account and ascribe it a
name, e.g “aje” (I have just made this word up). “Aje” dissimilar
to “age”, takes into account other pseudo-scientific qualities such as subjective
social and cultural factors. For example, one can “identify” as 35 years old,
because their interests and personality closely aligns to 80s culture. A
subjectively mature 12 year old, could have the “aje” of 18 years old, because
they might be as mature as an 18 year old. Clearly, just because I arbitrarily
make up a new word and included inherent social and cultural factors does not
mean it has any meaningful value. For the same reason it would be absurd for me
to affirm the veracity of “aje” over “age”, it is likewise absurd for me to
argue “gender” over “sex”.
A3. Data Consistency
If whether I am “male”, “female” or “other” depended on social and
cultural factors, then who is to say that my gender doesn’t change
consistently? What would stop me from being a male one minute, but a female the
next? This would imply people have the option to often change their gender on
DART.
3.1 Inaccurate Demographical Analysis
If this were the case, DART would be unable to create an “accurate”
depiction of their user demographic; as this statistic would be constantly changing.
Moreover, DART would be unable to design their website based on this user demographic,
because the sexual dimorphic distinction would be lost as biological males can
identify as women and vice versa. It would be more lucrative for DART to
provoke the “sex” field as it provides absolute data to analyse. They would
know what demographic they are appealing to; and how to adjust their website
accordingly to appeal to that demographic; whether it be UI design, or even advertising. With the “gender” field such data would
be inconsistent, forever changing and misrepresenting the true user demographic
of the site.
== Rebuttals ==
== Neg ==
C1. DA “Ethos”
Con consistently talks about DA’s ethos but fails to source what this ethos is . He outlines that to oppose his argument would imply that one is “anti-DA”, but doesn’t explain specifically why.
Con consistently talks about DA’s ethos but fails to source what this ethos is . He outlines that to oppose his argument would imply that one is “anti-DA”, but doesn’t explain specifically why.
C1.1 DA vs Social Media Platforms (SMP)
Con states that:
“DA is not a standard
social media platform but a shrine to debate, free of real life identity,
politics etc.”
Whilst I concur DA is dissimilar to that of FB and Twitter and
that it doesn’t badger you for personal data, it is an erroneous conclusion
that one ought to be able to “appear to be whatever they want” on the site. Especially
when one can be “free of real life identity” by just simply leaving
the sex field blank. There is a difference between not providing personal
data, and selecting random data you would choose to be. In this case, Con would
be behooved in advocating the “aje” field over DoB. In fact, why wouldn’t there
be settings where I can identify to be anything I want? Why can I not identify
as a 98 year old Pterodactyl and have debates with 76 year old 1943 Japanese
style battleships?
As such, asking my DoB, my
political ideology, my education and my occupation is “anti-DA” and inherently
contradicts “DA’s ethos”. Why is it that
these objective questions do not breach DA’s ethos but the “sex” field does?
C2. Gender Fluidity
Here, Con shows the fallibility of the gender field; he states:
“most trans people are simply over 55% between 0% one gender and 100% but not really
super near 100%”
What would make someone 100% male/female or… other? Or 50% male/
50% female? If a man likes the colour pink would that make him 2% more female? But
what if he enjoys hunting, does that make him 5% more male? Or how would that
value relate to him liking pink? Or who is to objectively say that those things
are innately masculine or feminine anyway? Or is it just base intuition that
one subjectively feels they are male or female or more female than male etc.? These
are the problems we encounter when we try and quantify non-physical values.
Moreover, he asserts:
“I don’t see what on earth would be a motive on a profile page on
a website that frees you of your real identity to opt for biological sex
instead of the gender you wish to be identified as”
As previously mentioned, then what is the point of having
objective questions on this page at all? If the goal is to free one of their
true identity why can’t I identify as a venus fly trap? Why doesn’t the site
include social and cultural factors for my age, education, native language or
country? It seems to me, Con has unwarrantedly assumed the website to free one
of their true identity and implies that this means that socio-cultural factors
ought to be shoehorned into every question we are asked about our data. It
seems to me, DA asks for your data but doesn’t badger you for it; it’s ethos
isn’t to necessarily free you of your true identity it just provides more anonymity
relative to social media platforms, since it allows you to leave all these
fields blank.
R1 Gender as a result would be more ambiguous than sex
Con states that the gender field allows one to assign with their
biological sex if they want to, but also has the option to choose another
option based on socio-cultural factors. This means no-one knows whether or not
one is biologically male/female or not! It completely makes the biological
factor redundant. In terms of analytics DA would have to guess whether or not one
is truly that sex or because they identify as that sex. Wouldn’t it be a better
alternative to put such in one’s bio; that they’d rather be referred to as
he/she etc. or that they’re on the fence about their gender? And if so why
would this contravene their true biological nature?
R2 Con hasn’t shown the coherency of the field
Since, gender would result in reducing sex to subjectivity, there are
infinite amounts of genders. As such I could identify as Michael Jackson as
that could subjectively be a gender to me. This nullifies the entire biological
portion as it is superseded by subjectivity. This is absurd. It’s like having
the option to identify as your biological age, but simultaneously have the
option to identify as any other age. It’s oxymoronic and I conveyed the juxtaposition
between objectivity and subjectivity in my affirmative case; it is innately paradoxical
to have an option that is simultaneously objective and subjective at the same
time. I commend that Con’s onus extends to the internal consistency of the
field. I assert that if it’s incoherent then it is inapt as a viable parameter
on DA.
Over to Con.
References
Forfeited
Round 3
I'm surprised RM has forfeited considering all the hassle at the beginning of the debate and how he stated he would put in "full effort". Regardless, I extend.
Forfeited
Round 4
Extend. If anyone else is interested in this debate let me know.
Forfeited
I do not think you are stupid RM.
You can mock me all you want, if you do/don't have autism you probably realise that one singular benefit of Autism is that it matters not in the slightest to us that others think we are stupid so long as they don't prevent us doing what we want to do.
Forfeited debates aren't moderated.
That explains a lot. Thanks RationalMadman.
You're completely wrong there and maybe you have autism that doesn't allow you to realise the abstract notion of website identification on a site like this but as I myself have autism, that would surprise me and mean you have a really strong strain.
A website doesn't owe a shred of respect to science, you just want it to.
Whilst that is true, they aren't creating subjective notions of those objective properties; they are people choosing to not represent their true selves. If all of those objective questions were replaced with their subjective socio-cultural counterparts, people could still choose to not represent what they would identify as.
Online you can be many ages, hair colours etc. It's not absurd for a website.
That's great! Let me know when you've returned from holiday.
Fair enough. Although, I would think @Ramshutu would vote fairly and honestly. I do agree with you on how other people could decide a winner; ultimatley voting from personal bias. If anything, that would mean you would most likely win, since it seems I am affirming the unpopular opinion.
I do believe my argument is irrefutable, but if it were to come down to "but are we just going to pretend like science doesn't exist, so that people can have more choices" I wouldn't see why this cannnot apply to anything. Like, what's the point of having scientific principles when we can simply throw the textbook out the window, create a new, arbitrary concept that uses socio-economic factors and ascribe it a name. Why can't we do this with age, hair colour, race, height, weight, species...? People would find that absurd, but I am unsure why people feel the same way about gender.
Probably not, I already know Ramshutu will vote for you no matter what as he will make your 'clarity' point hold more weight than all points I bring up as he is highly entertained by voting against me.
I also know barely anyone else will vote on the debate other than people who dislike me so... Yeah, I'm not into wasting effort on a debate where you're going to make it all about clarity of the male vs female and I'm going to make it all about necessity of the option-choice (gender vs sex) to the site economically and socially.
It's going to come down to 'does clarity or economic and social benefit matter more to you, personally' and the voters will freely vote against either of us. In fact, so very many debates come down to such nonsense which is in a way what makes them fair for both sides but then equally unfair all at once as it enables voters to pick and choose which side they want to vote against and can veil any corrupt agenda within their vote.
I'm currently on holiday but I will be back in about two weeks. Shoot me a pm if you want to debate this topic once I'm back, seems interesting and fairly straight-forward
Would you be interested in finishing this debate where we left off; copy and pasting the current rounds?
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments ✔ ✗ ✗ 3 points
Better sources ✔ ✗ ✗ 2 points
Better spelling and grammar ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Better conduct ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Reason:
75% FF "That's poor conduct!"
12 hours left. Just a heads up.
Yes, that is exactly the case.
It says "any unwarranted acceptance". I challenged you to the debate, thus your acceptance is warranted. Moreover, I messaged you before the debate to carefully read the description before accepting if there was anything you wanted changed.
RM did an oopsie
He made an a debate that was impossible to accept, you asked for the debate; he challenged you, you accepted.
Did it occur to you that he just copy and pasted the debate description? Rather than him maliciously trying to troll you?
Perhaps it would be better to, perhaps ASK him first before freaking out?
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1162/comment_links/15543
this is utter bullshit he trolled me. He challenged me directly to this debate and then has that I forfeit if I accept in the description.
easy win for Pro