Instigator / Con
11
1650
rating
44
debates
77.27%
won
Topic

Jesus's Resurrection

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
3
3
Sources points
4
4
Spelling and grammar points
2
2
Conduct points
2
1

With 2 votes and 1 point ahead, the winner is ...

TheRealNihilist
Parameters
More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Two weeks
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
5,000
Contender / Pro
10
1641
rating
62
debates
66.13%
won
Description
~ 750 / 5,000

I am going to waive the first round and Speedrace would have to wave the final round.

Pro: Jesus did resurrect and I can prove it
Con: No he didn't

Burden of proof is on Speedrace. If I fail to counter his claims sufficiently then he wins. If I do counter his claims sufficiently then I win.

Kind of an extreme burden of proof since I would have to debunk all his claims to win but given there isn't a lot to discuss I don't think this is too much to ask for.

I don't really want to add rules since I know they ain't going to be enforced and think if the previous rules are going to be broken I still think I can win if I do post arguments as well.

Thanks for reading and participating in whatever way you see fit.

Hopefully this is worthwhile.

Round 1
Con
Wwwwaive.

Good luck Speedrace
Pro
Jesus, as we know, was an essential figure in history and was very influential; not only did he start the most famous religion in history, with over 2 billion followers, but our very dates revolve around him.
 
The Bible claims that Jesus rose from the dead. First, allow me to establish the reliability of the New Testament, where this claim is made.
To do this, scholars put together the interpretations we have now to establish what the originals were like. The more copies there are, the easier it is to reconstruct the originals. Another factor is how much time exists between the writing of the originals and the copies. Many documents that we’ve reconstructed with high certainty that they are accurate only have a few copies and can span over thousands of years. An example would be The Jewish War, which only has nine surviving manuscripts dating about four centuries after the originals. As you can see, historians are able to do a good job with this.
 
In comparison, the New Testament FAR outweighs any secular document. The one with the most is Homer’s Iliad with 647 copies. The New Testament has 5,366 separate Greek manuscripts. These were all written within a few hundred years of the originals. As you can see, we can have very high confidence that the New Testament is reliable. [1]
 
Now, having established the reliability of the New Testament, I will look at the various theories used to try to falsify the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would like to say that the existence of Jesus as well as his crucifixion are facts and are not arguable. Unless my opponent asks me to, it is a waste of time to discuss that. I am focusing on what is debated over, which is the resurrection.
 
1.    The Swoon Theory
2.    The Hallucination Theory
3.    The Conspiracy Theory
 
The Swoon Theory
 
The swoon theory states that Jesus never died on the cross, but simply passed out. Let’s first examine the facts of the situation. We know that Jesus was severely beaten, stabbed, pierced with spikes and nails, was bleeding, and he even had a spear thrust into his side. The possibility that he could have survived this is ludicrous. However, besides that, he would’ve had to wake up, roll the GIANT STONE DOOR over the tomb, not a little bit, but all the way out, and he would have had to do all of that without alerting the guards who were posted outside.
Some people say that the guards fell asleep and that the disciples came and stole the body. However, in those times, a guard could lose their life if they did that, so that is simply not true. And even if they did, they would’ve been awoken by all of the noise.
 
The Hallucination Theory
 
This theory states that the people only hallucinated Jesus appearing to them after he had died. Hallucinations are individual events and cannot spread beyond just one person. Here is a list of all of Jesus’ appearances:
 
Luke 24:39 Jesus’ Own Testimony
Revelation 1:18 Jesus’ Own Testimony
John 20:14-16 Mary Magdalene
Matthew 28:9 The Virgin Mary
Luke 24:34 Peter
Luke 24:13-16 Two Disciples On a Road
John 20:19,20,24 The Disciples (except Thomas)
John 26-28 All of the Disciples
John 21:1,2 Seven Disciples
Matthew 28:16,17 Eleven Disciples
1 Corinthians 15:6 Over 500 people
1 Corinthians 15:7 James
Acts 9:3-5 Saul
Acts 1:3 Saul
 
That is over 10 appearances to over 500 people. Quite obviously, it is impossible for 500 people to hallucinate the same thing. The hallucination theory is false.
 
The Conspiracy Theory
 
This one states that the disciples stole the body themselves and fabricated the entire story. First of all, there are absolutely no records of this ever happening. Second, the accounts of Jesus appearing to over 500 people disprove this. Third, they had Jesus appear to women. Women were not considered reliable in Jewish culture, so if they were to fabricate it, they wouldn’t have included women. Fourth, a lot of the Bible is made up of personal letters that are clearly not meant for the public eye. If this theory were true, the personal letters would indicate the exchange between the people trying to determine the logistics of the whole ordeal, but this is not the case.
 
And, what is perhaps the biggest part of this, is that 10 out of 11 of the Apostles were martyred for their beliefs. Why do that unless they were telling the truth?
 
Finally, no written record has ever been shown to have found the body of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind, it was in the Romans interest to find the body and put down the Christian uprising instantly. However, that never happened.
 
So, as shown, none of the theories about the resurrection of Jesus holds up; except, of course, the fact that he did rise from the dead and appeared to people afterward. [2]
 
Sources
 



Round 2
Con
I thank Speedrace for accepting and publishing an argument.


Since I waived the first round I will make it clear here what my opponent must do in order to provide evidence for Jesus's resurrection.
 
Types of evidence Speedrace can use is:
 
For the purpose of simplicity, I will narrow it down to the few Sr can use to provide the proof required. This would be testimonials, or scientific evidence.
 
So basically X person saw Jesus resurrect.
Or
Science can repeat it.
 
Now if it wasn’t clear already what Sr did. I’ll make it clear. Neither of them meets the scrutiny.
 
Repeatable

Given how sacred this is to Christians I don’t think they would even consider this can be repeated so we are left with only one way of finding proof. I’ll move on specifically talking about his argument before giving speaking about testimony given the context would be helpful to my point and to readers.

Now on to Sr's arguments:

In comparison, the New Testament FAR outweighs any secular document. The one with the most is Homer’s Iliad with 647 copies. The New Testament has 5,366 separate Greek manuscripts. These were all written within a few hundred years of the originals. As you can see, we can have very high confidence that the New Testament is reliable.
So an amount of something non-sequitur to the reliability conversation is somehow enough to state the Bible is reliable?
It is a non-sequitur because amount of copies does not equal reliability. If that is the case then Mein Kampf selling 5.2 millions makes it reliable in stating some white superiority excluding the Jews. If Sr decides to post ad hoc rationalize a new condition then his argument becomes weaker because when he first wrote this Sr thought the amount of documents equals reliability bearing in mind no-one who is credible at pretty much anything does this.

I would like to say that the existence of Jesus as well as his crucifixion are facts and are not arguable.
Even if I grant you this you still have a heavy burden which is not fulfilled given you would either have to consider Mein Kampf to be a reliable book or you simply add something then like I said earlier this would mean I have rebutted the claim forward and you had to resort to a weaker argument. I don't know a weaker argument than the argument you just made but I can wait to find out.

The Swoon Theory
 
The swoon theory states that Jesus never died on the cross, but simply passed out.
Complete non-sequitur to the point of this debate. It is about Jesus' resurrection not if he did die on the cross or not.
The Hallucination Theory
 
This theory states that the people only hallucinated Jesus appearing to them after he had died. Hallucinations are individual events and cannot spread beyond just one person. Here is a list of all of Jesus’ appearances:
Hallucinations are individual events yes but more than one individual at a time can be hallucinating. If this is your argument you are pretty much saying AIDS can't happen because they are individual events which the stats show otherwise.
That is over 10 appearances to over 500 people. Quite obviously, it is impossible for 500 people to hallucinate the same thing. The hallucination theory is false.
How is this impossible? You have yet to demonstrate it unless of course the hallucination statement you made before where only person can hallucinate. Think about if every single one of the followers smoked weed. Would they all be hallucinating how about all of them being near a plant that can cause hallucinations? All these explanations are more plausible then it being impossible.  
The Conspiracy Theory 
Just to make clear Sr is proving the negative can't be true so the positive must be true. There is a problem because you don't have the character space to do so and it would be much easier to demonstrate the positive if what you accepted was true. That Jesus did resurrect instead you are making it your mission to prove my side therefore my side must be wrong? That can't be the case because I didn't give an argument nor do I need to since it is as simple Jesus did or didn't resurrect. 

Just to make clear since Sr can't admit the resurrection to be repeatable he only has testimony to be anything where this can be proven. Given this link testimony must be reliable but the Bible is not a reliable source of information unless Sr would like to admit Mein Kampf is reliable as well. 

In order for Sr to show Jesus resurrected he must demonstrate the Bible is reliable but he hasn't.

So, as shown.... appeared to people afterward.
Clear admittance that he was stating the other side to be wrong instead of stating how his side is correct. 
Pro
Reliability

So an amount of something non-sequitur to the reliability conversation is somehow enough to state the Bible is reliable?
Yes, this is how actual historians determine the validity of historical documents. Didn't you read my source? I can provide more if you would like. [1]

If that is the case then Mein Kampf selling 5.2 millions makes it reliable in stating some white superiority excluding the Jews
That's incorrect. White superiority being true or not is an OPINION. When we're talking about reliability, we're talking about whether the events described happened or not. Opinions aren't events. Besides this, the copies of Mein Kampf and the copies of the New Testament are two completely different things. With the latter, it was multiple people in multiple places recounting events they saw, so we can put all of these accounts together and see that they all confirm one another. With Mein Kampf, it was a factory where a book was being mass-printed. The two are not the same at all.

Even if I grant you this you still have a heavy burden which is not fulfilled given you would either have to consider Mein Kampf to be a reliable book or you simply add something then like I said earlier this would mean I have rebutted the claim forward and you had to resort to a weaker argument.
I don't have to do either of those things.

The Swoon Theory

Complete non-sequitur to the point of this debate. It is about Jesus' resurrection not if he did die on the cross or not.
How? I was saying that he did die on the cross. If he never died in the first place, he obviously can't be resurrected.

The Hallucination Theory

Hallucinations are individual events yes but more than one individual at a time can be hallucinating. If this is your argument you are pretty much saying AIDS can't happen because they are individual events which the stats show otherwise.
People can hallucinate at the same time, yes, but they can't hallucinate the exact same thing.

How is this impossible? You have yet to demonstrate it unless of course the hallucination statement you made before where only person can hallucinate. Think about if every single one of the followers smoked weed. Would they all be hallucinating how about all of them being near a plant that can cause hallucinations? All these explanations are more plausible then it being impossible.  
Of course multiple people can hallucinate at the same time, but not the exact same thing. That's just common sense.

Just to make clear Sr is proving the negative can't be true so the positive must be true.
That's incorrect. I'm disproving supposed holes in the resurrection theory. The accounts of people who saw Jesus after he died is my proof of him rising from the dead.

In order for Sr to show Jesus resurrected he must demonstrate the Bible is reliable but he hasn't.
Yes, I have.

Conclusion

My opponent has done nothing to disprove my side, so until he does, all voters should vote Pro.

Sources:

Round 3
Con
Thank you Speedrace for replying.

Reliability

Yes, this is how actual historians determine the validity of historical documents. Didn't you read my source? I can provide more if you would like. [1]
addressing this:
So an amount of something non-sequitur to the reliability conversation is somehow enough to state the Bible is reliable?
Reading the source, not a single one talks about the amount of something making it more reliable. I'll go through it one by one:

1. Was the source created at the time of the event? So no.
2. Who checked if it was valid? Not about the amount equaling it being correct.
3. Does the information go in-line with other reports during that time? No again.
4. Is it just repeating a more reliable source? No again.
5. What evidence are supporting their claims? No again.
6. Are there errors and who is at fault? No again.
7. Almost identical to number 3 so no. 
8. Almost identical to number 4 so no.
9. Can it be read using current norms in language. No again.

So as we can nothing even comes close to speaking about an amount of something making it more reliable. That is if I accept this is a reliable piece of information because it does not even cites its own sources like who wrote this.

From this I gather my opponent doesn't understand my problem or doesn't understand the link doesn't address my problem.

If that is the case then Mein Kampf selling 5.2 millions makes it reliable in stating some white superiority excluding the Jews
That's incorrect. White superiority being true or not is an OPINION. When we're talking about reliability, we're talking about whether the events described happened or not. Opinions aren't events. Besides this, the copies of Mein Kampf and the copies of the New Testament are two completely different things. With the latter, it was multiple people in multiple places recounting events they saw, so we can put all of these accounts together and see that they all confirm one another. With Mein Kampf, it was a factory where a book was being mass-printed. The two are not the same at all. 
If this was obvious already this hinges on the my point made before. Even so there are still problems with what is said here outside vital points that need to be addressed.

"White superiority being true or not is an OPINION"

If white superiority being true is also an opinion then the Bible being a reliable source of information is also an opinion. Something being reliable means there are telling the truth about a certain event. This would be the Bible is true about what happen with and without Jesus. So if my opponent states white superiority to be an opinion he must also have the Bible being reliable source of information to also be an opinion. 

"When we're talking about reliability, we're talking about whether the events described happened or not."

A distinction without a difference. Another way of saying this is reliability determines whether or not it is true that Jesus resurrected. This would make your problem with what I said not a problem because what the Bible and Jesus' resurrection can be also given the same criticism. If you don't see it that way then you have a double standard. You haven't demonstrated how they are different without sufficient rebuttals so it is an unjustified double standard.

"With the latter, it was multiple people in multiple places recounting events they saw, so we can put all of these accounts together and see that they all confirm one another. With Mein Kampf, it was a factory where a book was being mass-printed."

This is completely absurd. Semantical without it being helpful. Hitler wrote the book. It was then given to Emil then was later edited by his deputy Rudolf. Here is the link. The Bible supposedly was written by multiple people. This essentially is the same thing. An edit can be an addition. A wrote the first half of the book. B wrote the second half the book. A was done then B edited the book by adding in what they wanted. Not to mention how you are talking about two different things. You are talking about the manufacturing stage for Mein Kampf and the written stage of the Bible. This is unfair because you didn't address the problem I had nor did you even compare them correctly. 

I don't have to do either of those things.
Yes you do if you want to fulfill your burden of proof.

The Swoon Theory

How? I was saying that he did die on the cross. If he never died in the first place, he obviously can't be resurrected.
Him dying on the cross has nothing to do with a resurrection.

The Hallucination Theory

People can hallucinate at the same time, yes, but they can't hallucinate the exact same thing.
You have no proof that the Bible is reliable so speaking about a strawman about a position I don't have is useless. Almost every argument was like that.

That's incorrect. I'm disproving supposed holes in the resurrection theory. 
You were supposed to show how Jesus did resurrect not strawman me.

Conclusion

I don't know what to say.
Pro
Reliability
 
My opponent grossly misquotes the questions. I don't have enough characters, but please look at the article to see the actual questions. [1]

#4, #7, and #8 all go hand-in-hand with an abundance of sources. #4 literally says “more than one reliable source.” You obviously need multiple reports to find “contradict[tions] or conflicts” (#7). And you obviously need multiple sources to compare originals and copies (#8).
 
And note, my opponent did not object to the reliability or validity of this article.
 
If white superiority being true is also an opinion then the Bible being a reliable source of information is also an opinion.
This is not even close to being correct. We are comparing the Bible and Mein Kampf.
 
I have never said that reliability isn’t an opinion. However, it’s not an opinion that the Bible states.
 
Mein Kampf: “White superiority blah blah blah”
Bible: “Jesus was resurrected.”
Scholars: “The Bible is reliable.
 
The reliability of the Bible is something that is said by ME and other scholars, not the Bible.
 
Something being reliable means there are telling the truth about a certain event. This would be the Bible is true about what happen with and without Jesus.
So, if I am saying white superiority in Mein Kampf IS an opinion, that is COMPLETELY independent of stating reliability is an opinion because Mein Kampf is not being compared to scholars, it is being compared to the Bible. And, what the Bible says: “Jesus was resurrected” is objectively a fact that is either true or false.
 
"When we're talking about reliability, we're talking about whether the events described happened or not."
 
A distinction without a difference. Another way of saying this is reliability determines whether or not it is true that Jesus resurrected.
How? Reliability has no bearing on opinions. If a teacher tells you an article is reliable, then you say “Oh ok, I can use the facts in here because they are likely true.” However, that doesn’t give you free reign to say the opinions used are true because they’re OPINIONS and no amount of reliability will make them true.
 
You haven't demonstrated how they are different without sufficient rebuttals so it is an unjustified double standard.
No, I don’t. Events/facts and opinions are objectively different, and therefore relate to reliability differently. There is no double standard.

Hitler wrote the book. It was then given to Emil then was later edited by his deputy Rudolf. Here is the link. The Bible supposedly was written by multiple people. This essentially is the same thing.
No, it’s not. And even if this objection IS true, it doesn’t matter because your objections about white superiority are still OPINIONS.
 
But what you’re saying is this: “Oh, Hitler wrote this, and it was edited by Rudolf. Therefore, white superiority must be true!” But that’s incorrect because, once again, it’s an OPINION.
 
What I am saying is this: “Multiple accounts of the same event all correspond to one another, so therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Jesus was resurrected!” Not an opinion, but an evaluation of facts to find the truth.
 
I don't have to do either of those things.
Yes you do if you want to fulfill your burden of proof.
Those “things” I must do are the following (as outlined by my opponent):
 
1.    Consider Mein Kampf to be reliable
2.    OR add something to your argument
 
I never said that Mein Kampf isn’t reliable. And frankly, I don’t care. Even if it IS reliable, that doesn’t make white superiority true. If that was the case, all I would have to do was write a book, make sure it was reliable, and then simply say “the author of this book deserves $5 billion dollars.” Does the reliability of the book suddenly make that opinion true? Of course not! That would be absurd.
 
And since the reliability of Mein Kampf doesn’t matter to my argument, I obviously don’t have to add anything to my argument.
 
The Swoon Theory
 
Him dying on the cross has nothing to do with a resurrection.
Yes, it literally is the entire point. This is what I’m saying:
 
Me: “Jesus was resurrected.”
Opponents: “Well what if he never actually died on the cross? Then he couldn’t be resurrected!”
Me: “Well, he had to have died on the cross because *explains reasoning*. Therefore, he must have been resurrected.”
 
The Hallucination Theory
 
You have no proof that the Bible is reliable so speaking about a strawman about a position I don't have is useless. Almost every argument was like that.
I have proved over and over that the Bible is reliable. Nothing here was a strawman.

A strawman is saying that you hold these beliefs. I never have once said that. Also, I did show how Jesus was resurrected.
 
Conclusion
 
My opponent's only real objection was to reliability, which I have already fully rebutted. In the absence of any other real argument (besides strawmen which I also rebutted), votes should therefore all go to Pro.