Assuming We live in a simulation it is better to be significant than morally good
All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.
With 1 vote and 3 points ahead, the winner is ...
- Publication date
- Last update date
- Time for argument
- One week
- Voting system
- Open voting
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Four points
- Rating mode
- Characters per argument
We must consider the fact that the universe is a simulation, and if it is a simulation, in my opinion it is better to have significant influence on society than it is to be a "good person". It would be better to be a serial killer who becomes famous than a person who regularly attends church, donates large amounts of money to charity and is loved by everyone around her.
similarly, it would be better if youwere a significant player in historical events such as Adolph Hitler than it would be that you were Jimmy Carter who will be barely mentioned in history books 50 years from now. Assuming a simulated environment, I think it would be more amusing to our creators to see us impact society on a large scale than to merely be a good person. Obviously ideally you would be significant and good on a grand scale and in an obvious way, but having to choose between significant only like Hitler or good like my grandmother who passed away and was loved by everyone around her, it would have been better to be Hitler
Anyway, I hope this is a fun debate for whoever accepts and the readers.
In thinking about how knowledge of being in a simulation, should affect our behavior we should first look at the likely nature of our simulation. We are assuming that simulation theory is true, and so I won’t spend too much time arguing it as true, but I think it is reasonable to assume that these are ancestor simulations of some sort, and if not at the very least we are very similar to what our Creators are like. When we create games, or watch movies or write works of fiction or any of the numerous ways we create crude world simulations, they are usually composed of beings just like us. Even when we create aliens, typically they are like us in most ways other than physical appearance.
Knowing how we think, is a big clue as to how our creators think. We are most likely a ancestor simulation, but if we are anything else, it still stands to reason that we our very much like our creators, and nothing to alien to them.
Giving Life Meaning
If life does not have meaning, than it doesn’t much matter what we do. If I were to go around raping sexy guys like Brad Pitt or Sean Connery, that would not be much different than if I were Mother Theresa, and going around saving the world. Life is meaningless, it doesn’t matter what I do. I am going to die anyway, and be put in overwritten in the simulation by whatever life form that follows.
At best, if we can not achieve immortality than we should embrace some sort of hedonism, so we at the very least can enjoy the moment, even though that does not matter either, since we will die. I would take it and say that if we are forced to live a meaningless life and die, than we have a moral obligation to create, super men (ubermensch) who can have a meaningful life by living forever. If we can not have meaning, the least we can do is make way for a person who can live a meaningful life.
What if we can instead of making way for the ubermensch, become ubermensch. If we can become this man who has overcome death, and weak human values, often put on men as shackles and forms of manipulation to either advantage the poor, such as values of charity and monogamy or values that advantage the wealthy such as the false concept of meritocracy and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, than we have an obligation to become this ubermensch whose existence gives meaning to life.
Give Me 3 Steps
A song by Lynryd Skynrd encapsulates my philosophy perfectly and starts off as follows
I was cutting the rug
Down at place called The Jug
With a girl named Linda Lou
When in walked a man
With a gun in his hand
And he was looking for you know who
He said, "Hey there, fellow
With the hair colored yellow
Whatcha tryin' to prove?
'Cause that's my woman there
And I'm a man who cares
And this might be all for you
The gentleman in this based on true life song, found his life on the line, and he knew that this other man wanted to kill him. He couldn’t change the guys mind on whether he would attempt to kill him or not, but he could merely ask for a chance. Just give him 3 steps towards the door.
Simulation or not, we are most likely going to die, but we have a chance to give our life meaning. Maybe it is an extremely small chance, but if the chance exists we should take it, or else have all our actions be meaningless when we drift into the eternal void.
Leo Tolstoy discusses this problem as well. He says that for life to have some sort of meaning Than there has to be something worth doing, actions with impermanent effects on the world we perceive will at some point stop mattering. For our actions to matter, they have to have some permanent affect. (taken from an essay called Transhumanism and the Meaning of Life by Anders Sandberg).
The Tolstoy argument shows we should strive for an eternal lifespan AKA immortality.
Why I am a Bitch
In another thread I state the following
“My goal here is just to make my life enjoyable for observers. When I finger myself, I do so as if people are watching. Putting on a show for our creators. When I have sex, I do the same thing. I am a bitch to inferior men who hit on me, for example because the interaction will be funnier if people are watching. I assume our creators will see I am amusing to watch and maybe save me to put me in different environments instead of just letting my program end once I reach natural death. The same way DC can not let superman die, because he is too loved by his observers” https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3497/the-possibilities-for-immortality
Why do I do this?
Well we know 2 things by now
P1- Our creators are a lot like us
P2- We should strive for immortality
Having these 2 premises handy, we can deduce exactly what we can do to achieve immortality. We keep compelling character around in the universes we create, even after they have died several times. Jason Vorhees has been in 12 films and has died 13 times. Chucky from Child’s Play has died about 6 or 7 times, The Joker dies about every other time a Batman comic is printed.
What do these characters and all characters have in common? They are compelling to watch. We grant these characters immortality. If you want to be rescued, from the grips of death, you are better off being a complete jerk like the guys I typically date, than you are being a good little boy.
Thank you con for participating in this interesting debate with me. I hope I have convinced you and all the people reading this debate to be jerks. I know I have convinced myself.
In this debate, we are assuming we live in a simulation, so any defense that rests on the fact, we might be wrong is beside the point and should be ignored. It says it right in the resolution. The voters should assume we live in a simulation, as should the actors in the simulation deciding between good or significant. Whether the actors are wrong or not is speculation and should be ignored, because they are assuming that they live in a simulation. This is not giving it a 90% chance or even a 99% likelihood, they live in one. The resolution directly implies they are ignoring any doubts, and are selling out to the ideal they live in a simulation.
Con argues that because a character is worthy of being rooted for, they will be rooted for, but this is ridiculous. We see countless examples of where the good guy is hated. In Ferris Bueler’s day off, the truancy officer is hated. In Breaking Bad, Skyler is a good woman, but everyone hates her. Even in Batman, The Joker has a huge fan base, while whoever the hell Batman’s love interest was in the movie is forgotten. Fan’s love seeing the Joker resurrected and saved 100 times, while nobody asked for his girl who got killed attached to the gas canister to be brought back from The Dark Knight.
Fan theories online try to justify Walter White coming back because the actor twitched in the final scene, while nobody gives a shit if they see Skyler again. People are still begging for a Ferris Bueler remake. Anybody watching a simulation or even playing one, wants to see the significant people, even if they hate them. Just like in pro wrestling. The fans wouldn’t see a show with just the good guys, or even with good guys that are undercards.
A simulation will be there for entertainment, and if you want your best chance of being resurrected or immortalized, you better start being a villain.
Con argues that, if you are seen as a bad guy but significant than you will have the simulation turned against you. Your goals will fail, you will find roadblocks in your way. You will never become successful in your endeavors. Partially this is true. Lex Luthor never really did kill off Super Man. He was a billionaire who got mad pussy, and lived a life of comfort, but he never did kill Superman, so I guess he is a failure. Meanwhile our successful characters succeed in the end, after their parents are shot leaving a theater in Batman’s case, or burned alive in a fire like Bambi’s case or sometimes after years of wrongful imprisonment like in the case of the Count of Monte Cristo.
I think most of us would prefer the failure of Lex Luthor to the success of these people like Batman and Bambi who had their parents murdered, or the count who was put in prison.
I already laid out the argument for why survival should take precedence over everything in round 1. I also explained why your good deeds are meaningless if everyone ends up dead, in round one. There have been no rebuttals yet for those arguments, but my round one acts as a rebuttal for most if not all of what con says.
Con argues we can’t know what will be considered significant or not, so we should lean towards good, but there are problems with that. I explain in round one, why it doesn’t matter if we are good or bad if everyone is just going to die anyway. I explained why are primary concern should be permanence. Even if we can’t know what are creators find significant, con has already conceded we are most likely like our creators, so this is untrue. As a society we are pretty predictable. We don’t care if a character is good or bad, only that they are significant. They make a huge impact on events in the story.
A lot of times, we want our characters to be bad guys, we prefer the lawlessness of the “heros”, sometimes we love serial killers. If I ever murder somebody, you can bet your ass, it will be in a very entertaining way. We just want to be entertained. Our creators are the same way.
My opponent asks, what if it is simulations all the way down. Our creators are also simulated. This really is a scary scenario. If we are 100 simulations deep, that is 100 points of failure. The end of the world could happen in a million different ways. However it does not change the fact that, our best chance of obtaining eternal life is to have some sort of significance.
The creators of this simulation are unlikely to create a heaven or hell for us. The reason being is that computational power is likely going to cost too much to keep billions of human level artificial intelligence in another environment, and then you have to get people to go through the trouble of creating the programming for an entirely new world known as heaven. I am not even going to go into the ethical dilemmas of creating a hell to torture people in. Any suggestion that a good life will lead to an existence in heaven is silly for that reason as well as that it is unlikely anything our creators will care to do, especially for boring characters.
I await Con arguing for why morality matters, particularly mattering more than self preservation. Is it really better to give to the homeless than to get a heart transplant to save your own life? Similar scenario as to what he is suggesting in this debate. I await con’s response to any of my round one arguments which preemptively have already done enough to act as rebuttals for his round one arguments. I also ask for conduct points for the cocky you tube video he posted at the beginning of his debate.
This is not giving it a 90% chance or even a 99% likelihood, they live in one.
The resolution directly implies they are ignoring any doubts, and are selling out to the ideal they live in a simulation.
In Ferris Bueler’s day off, the truancy officer is hated. In Breaking Bad, Skyler is a good woman, but everyone hates her.
Even in Batman, The Joker has a huge fan base,
while whoever the hell Batman’s love interest was in the movie is forgotten.
Fan theories online try to justify Walter White coming back because the actor twitched in the final scene, while nobody gives a shit if they see Skyler again.
It doesn't matter how big the Big Bad is or how puny The Hero is—not only can the Kid Hero foil the Galactic Conqueror, despite how improbable it logically ought to be, but the audience expects it, and will be sincerely shocked if he doesn't.This trope is so omnipresent, especially in works with Black and White Morality, that attempts to subvert it can easily lead to Like You Would Really Do It, and any work with a Downer Ending where The Bad Guy Wins for once automatically catapults itself to the cynical end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism. (Except for certain circumstances, like if the villain winning won't actually hurt anything.)Side effects of this trope may include Plot Armor, Invincible Incompetent, and Underdogs Never Lose. Compare Happy Ending and Happily Ever After, which are closely related, and Invincible Hero, where not only does the good guy win in the end, but he also wins in every intermediate step. Contrast The Bad Guy Wins. See also Villain Protagonist.The villainous counterpart to this trope is You Can't Thwart Stage One—the good guy's victories always come at the end, and the bad guy's victories always come at the beginning and/or in the middle.
Con argues that, if you are seen as a bad guy but significant than you will have the simulation turned against you. Your goals will fail, you will find roadblocks in your way. You will never become successful in your endeavors. Partially this is true.
I explain in round one, why it doesn’t matter if we are good or bad if everyone is just going to die anyway.