Instigator / Pro
mairj23 avatar
7
mairj23
1384
rating
24
debates
25.0%
won
Topic

The Iran/US Conflict Proves How Unpatriotic White Americans & Immgrants Truly Are

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
0
9
Sources points
2
6
Spelling and grammar points
3
3
Conduct points
2
3

With 3 votes and 14 points ahead, the winner is ...

Zaradi
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Last update date
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People
Time for argument
Two days
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Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
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Rated
Characters per argument
8,000
Required rating
5
Contender / Con
Zaradi avatar
21
Zaradi
1558
rating
4
debates
100.0%
won
Description
~ 664 / 5,000

With the growing tensions between Iran & The US, the draft became a hot topic. The data shows that white Americans were Not willing to fight for America if need be. This perfectly proves the hypocrisy, lies and cowardice of these people. Immigrants of America were also saying that they would leave The US & relocate back in their homelands if the draft was implemented.
These are the very people who stated that Colin Kaepernick was being unpatriotic for simply kneeling at a football game...Let's see who takes the challenge of trying to prove that white American & immigrants aren't the biggest hypocritical cowards in the US.....The ball is now in your court.

Round 1
mairj23 avatar
mairj23
Pro
My stance on this situation is mentioned above. White Americans & immigrants who live here in the US have shown everyone of how cowardly and unpatriotic they really are. As soon as any mentions of the draft were going public, these groups of people went running for the hills. From social media posts to literally crashing the US Selective Service website, white Americans were not willing to fight at all. 

At the same time, these are the very people who said that Colin Kaepernick was unpatriotic for kneeling during the national anthem. Hmmmm.

Nope, you immigrants from foreign countries won't get let off the hook this time. When push comes to shove, you were all on social media saying that you would leave the US if the draft was implemented. You basically exposed your own hand, which is why you shouldn't be here in the first place. You basically want the benefits of living here, but you refuse to put in any real work...

So, the next time a black athlete doesn't stand for the national anthem, you don't have the luxury of complaining.
Zaradi avatar
Zaradi
Con
So there was a lot of stuff to unpack in that last round, but I think there's a few things to settle first from a debate standpoint before we dive into the meat of this.

O1: Not sure how an American football player factors into the tensions between the US and Iran, but the resolution itself seems pretty centered around the concept of patriotism as an ideal, but we're given no way to define if people are being patriotic or not. I propose we use the definition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is "love of one’s country, identification with it, and special concern for its well-being and that of compatriots"[1]. Prefer this definition since it encompasses the common use definition as well as provides criteria to determine if an act is patriotic or not.

Therefore, it's my opponent's burden to show how opposition to the draft in relation to the US/Iran conflict is unpatriotic. The majority of my argumentation will be that there's no conflict between patriotism and opposing a draft, so I await further clarification as to what specifically my opponent takes issue with, though I'll make arguments of my own as well. 


C1: Deja Vu

This situation seems similar to what happened during the Vietnam War involving opposition to the draft that was enacted during that war. The public was opposed to being involved in the Vietnam War, and opposed the draft that would force them to go fight a war they didn't want to fight. The same thought can apply here. 

To clarify, though, this most certainly is not a war the majority of Americans want. 53% of Americans disapprove of Trump's handling of Iran, with 39% "strongly disapproving"[2]. Additionally, a poll conducted by the University of Maryland concluded that "Three-quarters of Americans, including a majority of Republicans, say that war with Iran would be unwarranted"[3]. 

This is a direct tie to patriotism's concern for well-being, as well. A majority of Americans agree that the US's handling of Iran has made America less safe and more prone to terrorism[4]. Opposing the draft to a war that a majority of people don't want and that a majority of Americans believe would make us less safe, thusly, seems to be the patriotic thing to do. 


C2: Love/Hate Heartbreak

My opponent's argument seems to rest on an assumption that if you don't support a country's actions, then you can't be considered patriotic. After all, it's my opponent's claim that those who are opposing the draft are unpatriotic, among other claims. 

However there seems to be a missing step between disagreeing and not caring that doesn't make sense. I can disagree with the actions of someone or something and still deeply care about that person or thing's well-being. I don't always agree with everything my parents do, but to say that means I don't care about my parents doesn't really make sense. So to say that those who disagree with a draft don't care about the US's wellbeing, or can't be considered patriotic, doesn't seem to make sense.


Sources:

[2] -



Round 2
mairj23 avatar
mairj23
Pro
Thanks for accepting.

My opponent started out by saying that there's a lot of stuff to unpack, which is quite untrue. Being patriotic/unpatriotic is about as simple as it gets. 
My opponent says "Not sure how an American football player factors into the tensions between the US and Iran." My reply: I'll ask one simple question. Wasn't it white Americans who were beating the drum that he was unpatriotic for kneeling?

As you can see, both situations falls under patriotism or lack thereof. 

My opponent, Con, goes on to say "I propose we use the definition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is "love of one’s country, identification with it, and special concern for its well-being and that of compatriots"[1]. Prefer this definition since it encompasses the common use definition as well as provides criteria to determine if an act is patriotic or not."

My reply: If a military draft takes place for the US, you get chosen to serve but you refuse to go to war...is that considered "love for one's country?" The definition of the word compatriot is a fellow citizen or national of a country, fellow countryman fellow country woman...So, when someone refuses to help his/her fellow countryman in terms of war...would he/she be considered a compatriot?...Better yet; wouldn't that be considered unpatriotic?

Con goes on to say "The majority of my argumentation will be that there's no conflict between patriotism and opposing a draft."..."My opponent is basically shooting himself in the foot by quoting definitions that contradicts his very own argument.

Con brings up the Vietnam War but it doesn't help his argument at all. An estimated 850,000 men were drafted (even though they didn't want to). Unlike today, it was white Americans who crashed the US Selective Service website in trying to get their names removed if a draft was implemented...I'll ask again; Is that considered patriotic or unpatriotic?...….To further support my case; didn't President Trump dodge the draft on multiple occasions?......But this is the same guy who said that anyone who kneels for the national anthem is (unpatriotic). Hmmmmm

Not to be smug, but I'm pretty sure that we all can see the hypocrisy & contradictions. Unfortunately, pride won't allow most of you to agree because that's being "Off-Code."

My opponent says "To clarify, though, this most certainly is not a war the majority of Americans want."...Ok, so when did the majority of Americans ever support a war? Con says "53% of Americans disapprove of Trump's handling of Iran, with 39% "strongly disapproving."...OK, but didn't more than 53% of white Americans get Trump elected?...My opponent say "Three-quarters of Americans, including a majority of Republicans, say that war with Iran would be unwarranted."...OK, so was the Vietnam War unwarranted? What about the 2nd Gulf War in which No weapons of mass destructions were found?...Is that Warranted?

In conclusion, the rest of my opponents arguments are excuses for being unpatriotic. He says that I'm making assumptions but it wasn't black people who crashed the US Selective Service website in regards to dodging a potential draft.
Zaradi avatar
Zaradi
Con
I'll start by answering Pro's questions before moving onto the debate proper.

Pro asks
Wasn't it white Americans who were beating the drum that he was unpatriotic for kneeling?
Fuck if I know. I don't pay attention to sportsball lol. Why is this relevant to a debate concerning a potential draft again?


Pro also says
you get chosen to serve but you refuse to go to war...is that considered "love for one's country?
This seems to make the assumption that the only way to love one's country is to be a soldier. I'm not sure why this is true. 

Moreover, cross-apply the analysis I give from last round that you can still love something while disagreeing with it. Just like I can disagree with decisions my mom makes while still loving her, I can disagree with decisions the USFG makes while still loving the ol' US of A.

Pro claims
it was white Americans who crashed the US Selective Service website in trying to get their names removed if a draft was implemented.
A'ight. I'm gonna need a source for how specifically white Americans crashed the selective service website. None of the reports I can find on Google mention any racial identifiers as to who "crashed" the website, nor can I think of any way for them to get that kind of identifying information from internet traffic. 

Pro then asks if the website crashing is considered patriotic or unpatriotic. The answer is neither of those is correct, but rather it's a server issue. Not sure how computer data can be patriotic or not.

Almost done with the Q&A. Pro asks
didn't President Trump dodge the draft on multiple occasions?
I mean, that sounds like something he'd do, lol. Not sure how this is responsive to my argument, though. I'm arguing that you can disagree with the decisions a country's government makes while still loving said country. 

Pro asks
Ok, so when did the majority of Americans ever support a war?
I don't have the stats in front of me, nor do I care to go look for them, but I wager wars like WW2 were pretty heavily supported by the public. 

But more importantly, doesn't this support my argument that you can disagree with a country's government's decisions (i.e. going to war) while still loving the country in question? I'm not sure how this shows that not supporting a draft is unpatriotic.

Pro asks
OK, but didn't more than 53% of white Americans get Trump elected
First, I'm not sure why the "white" qualifier is necessary here.
Second, how does the percent of white Trump voters relate to whether or not opposing a draft makes you necessarily unpatriotic? 


Pro's last question is
OK, so was the Vietnam War unwarranted? What about the 2nd Gulf War in which No weapons of mass destructions were found?...Is that Warranted?
First, I don't see why I have to personally take a stance on these issues.
Second, I don't see how this is relevant to the debate. My argument is that the majority of Americans, regardless of ethnicity, don't want to go to war with Iran, so opposing a draft doesn't seem to contradict the tenants of patriotism. How is asking about the second gulf war relevant? 


As a final statement before I move on to the rest of the debate, I'm not sure what my opponent is trying to prove through their arguments. They seem to have a history of really racially charged debate topics and arguments, so I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised by how this debate is turning out. But if they just want to rant and rave about how terrible white people are, there are a lot of better methods and mediums to use to do so than a debate. 

So let's go back to the actual debate round at hand, shall we?

CON'S CASE

Extend O1. Patriotism is defined as "love of one’s country, identification with it, and special concern for its well-being and that of compatriots". Pro doesn't disagree with this definition, so the debate boils down to whether or not disagreeing with a military draft can meet these criteria, specifically the 'concern for its well-being and that of compatriots' clause. Pro hasn't actually made any arguments for how opposing a draft fails to meet this definition, but has just assumed it to be true. Insofar as they have been spending all of their time just attacking my arguments rather than trying to uphold their burden, there's no reason to believe that opposing a draft is necessarily unpatriotic.

Then, extend C1. The majority of Americans don't support a draft in relation to the US/Iran conflict, so supporting it makes you not a compatriot to the rest of the public. Moreover, the vast majority of American's believe that the US's handling of Iran has made things less safe, so opposing a draft meets the "concern for well-being" criteria in the definition. This never really gets attacked by Pro, so it's a clean extension across. I'm showing how opposing a draft is patriotic, which means that, by logical necessity, opposing a draft can't be unpatriotic.


Then, extend C2. To make the argument that 'not agreeing with a country's actions means that you must not love the country' makes an assumption that isn't logically warranted. I can disagree with someone's actions while still loving that person. Same thing applies to a country. 

Pro makes one response to this:
the rest of my opponents arguments are excuses for being unpatriotic. He says that I'm making assumptions but it wasn't black people who crashed the US Selective Service website in regards to dodging a potential draft.
The bolding is my own emphasis.

First, the bolded part of the text shows just where my opponent is making the faulty assumption I'm accusing them of. 
Second, this doesn't actually respond to my argument, but rather just declares that its wrong without any explanation as to why. 

C2 shows that you can disagree with a country's actions, i.e. oppose a draft, while still loving the country, which meets the "love of one's country" criteria.



Round 3
mairj23 avatar
mairj23
Pro
In Conclusion,

I want to thank my opponent for accepting this debate, but his retorts can not justify the unpatriotic behavior that's taking place. His comparisons falls short because they're nothing more than a false equivalency. He structures his arguments very well, but it's merely a bunch of filibuster at the most.

Con continues to state that I'm making assumptions, which is far from the truth. It's not like I'm the only person who's speaking on this particular issue. There have been news reports that specifically speaks on the unpatriotic behavior of white Americans, which can be found on every major new channel. In addition to that, YouTube vloggers of all races have dozens of videos speaking on the unpatriotic behavior of both white Americans & immigrants.

I'll state the obvious just one more time...If your country initiates a draft to strengthen its military support and you refuse to fight for your own country, then that's the very definition of the word unpatriotic. There's no way to get around it and there's no answer that can justify the cowardice behavior, especially if you come from a group of people who thrives off violence. You fully support having gun rights, but when it's time to put in real work...you choose to run away. 

As for the Asian & Hispanic immigrants who benefit from living in someone else's country, you can't expect anyone to come and save you when deportation is knocking at your door. Yes, I'm calling you out as well because you're just as cowardly. You showed your true colors by specifically saying that you'll relocate back to your homeland if a draft is instituted. Yes, Trump has deported illegal and legal immigrants so you're sob stories will definitely fall on deaf ears from now on.

As I stated before, Colin Kaepernick was labelled unpatriotic by the very people who crashed the US Selective Service website in hopes of getting their names removed to keep from serving their country, which is the epitome of being unpatriotic.


mic drop...….


Zaradi avatar
Zaradi
Con
I'll just respond to my opponent's last round and then wrap up.

My opponent seems to be a fan of asserting things without wanting to actually explain their truth or warrant them with evidence. There's a lot of statements last round that were made that lack necessary empirical or logical support. Such statements include:

His comparisons [are] ... nothing more than a false equivalency.
While not explaining how or why this is true.
It's not like I'm the only person who's speaking on this particular issue. There have been news reports that specifically speaks on the unpatriotic behavior of white Americans, which can be found on every major new channel. In addition to that, YouTube vloggers of all races have dozens of videos speaking on the unpatriotic behavior of both white Americans & immigrants.
Without providing a single link or video. And finally:

If your country initiates a draft to strengthen its military support and you refuse to fight for your own country, then that's the very definition of the word unpatriotic
Without any explanation as to why. Keep in mind that this statement that is being asserted to be true is literally our debate topic here, so some sort of logical defense or support is expected, yet absent.

If this were a forum thread, there would be nothing inherently wrong with the conduct and behavior shown. But within the realm of a debate, there's a certain expected threshold of evidence and reasoning expected to support an argument so that two sides have something to, y'know, debate over. That evidence is completely nonexistent within my opponent's case. At best, voters should view pro's argument extremely skeptically. At worst, it's a reason to vote Con. Onto the debate proper.


CON'S CASE:

Extend O1 and my definition of patriotism. It's the only provided definition in the round, it wasnt ever attacked throughout the entire debate, and it provides clear criteria to determine if an action is patriotic or not. So whoever bets meets this definition is who should win the debate. I'm the only one who's even attempted to meet these criteria.

Extend C1. America doesn't want a war with Iran and feels our handling of the situation has made America less safe. Opposing a draft, therefore, is most concerned with the well-being of American people than supporting it is. This contention was dropped through the entire debate.

Finally, extend C2. There's a missing gap in logical reasoning in the pro position because you can love someone and disagree with something they do without there being any contradiction. So you can oppose a national draft while still loving the nation itself. This contention was dropped through the entire debate.


To conclude, I'm the only one meeting the definition of patriotism, not to mention the only one trying.