Instigator / Pro
4
1702
rating
77
debates
70.13%
won
Topic
#1800

The negating philosophy of "IF"

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
0
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2

After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

oromagi
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
5,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
14
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description

“IF’ ‘is the most useless word in any language because it acknowledges only that which is currently not true. The argument of “if” almost always begins by stating “if,” and it is virtually always directly followed by a wish as if it were true only for the wishing, which implies, of course, that the thing wished for is not a current truth.

Is this really supposed to be a positive way to being an argument? Well, I just did, didn’t I? But my premise did not follow with any matter that is currently not true. Remember, my premise stated that In fact, the premise is true and I challenge anyone to demonstrate otherwise. ”If” is “almost always” followed by something not true; I did not say it was always followed by truth.

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@fauxlaw

I look forward to future debates!

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@oromagi

With only 30 minutes remaining in the voting, I don't think I'm going to acquire the points necessary to overtake your lead. Therefore, my congratulations to you on an enjoyable, lively debate. I hope we have opportunity to debate again. In the meantime, my friend, good luck in other endeavors.

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@K_Michael

I'll set it up and set you as opposing argument

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@fauxlaw

I'd be happy to debate you on this topic.

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@Barney
@K_Michael

Thanks for voting

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@K_Michael

Uselessless: you like my opponent, gravitated to addressing "Useless" as a matter of frequency of use of a word. No, I explained in round 3 that "'Useless' is interpreted by my opponent as a function of mere frequency of use, and not recognized by my opponent as a function of unaccomplished purpose, arguing merely that “floccinaucinihilipilification” is a word used less often than 'if'"

Did you miss that?

You said "Pro never challenges the fact that there are 8 definitions for the word "if". This argument stands."
My round 2 argument:
"[Opponent's] Arg #1: 'Any word with multiple meanings…” [a polyseme] “…is more useful than a word with only one meaning.'

"My opposing proof: Polysemes, particularly when they are also homonyms [polysemes with the same spelling, and usually the same sound] have the disadvantage of being ambiguous. When meaning is ambiguous [as your eight definitions show proof] usefulness declines. How useful is that? It goes for virtually “any” polysemic homonym."

Did you miss that, too?

Doesn't help the process if you don't read with comprehension, and then vote by your limitations. Thanks.

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@Barney

No, I've decided citation is the better part of valor. I'm no Plato, but I do admire the man greatly, taught by my older brother who was a huge fan, but is now dead. I put his copy of The Republic in his hand in his casket. But thanks for the kind words.

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@fauxlaw

Given your dislike of sources, I highly suggest using the choose winner voting method in future.

I do look forward to reading future debates from you. You are very skilled at language.

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@Barney
@oromagi

You certainly did trounce me with sources. I know better, but I wanted to man the helm myself. I'm a stingy sailor. Set my own heading and didn't want to use a map. Ragnar really let me have it. Thanks, my friends. I am sufficiently ashamed on myself. [A turn of phrase my daughter spun when she was about five. Now has two children, nine and eleven, herself].

This debate reminds me of arguments for if C or K is the most useless letter.

My opponent wants you to believe my argument centers on a conditional conjunction. Those of you who know what that is, raise your hands. I’ll wager many do not without looking it up. Go ahead, there’s no shame in learning more today than you knew yesterday.

Conditional conjunctions are not the enemy in language and they do not, on their own merit, support an always false conclusion, as my opponent claims. They exist because of what they are: a two-clause [it may be more, but my premise is a two-clause] statement, the first of which describes an action that occurred, or will occur if the other clause is a satisfactory conclusion. That if is what makes the conditional state, and only if the second clause is not satisfied is the condition a false statement.

Now, read my conditional conjunction: “If is the most useless word in any language, because it acknowledges only that which is currently not true.” The condition is, “if” is a useless word [I contend the most useless word] and will occur... “if.” The satisfaction clause is that only ‘not true’ occurs, and only in a current tense: Now.

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@fauxlaw

R3:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if#Translations_2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood#Conditional
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood

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@fauxlaw

R2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_article
https://www.ef.edu/english-resources/english-grammar/comparative-and-superlative/
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_4fBH_7dk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity

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@fauxlaw

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/useless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_%28philosophy%29
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/antidisestablishmentarian
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/floccinaucinihilipilification
https://www.wordfrequency.info/free.asp?s=y

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@oromagi
@fauxlaw

If that were true, then perhaps people would stop using it. :D

I see your point though, as "if" is used sometimes to cover up reality when someone wants to ignore another's argument. Say a flat earther stating that "if" Nasa is covering the moon landings up in order to ignore photographs of earth. But I can say that "if" is important in thinking because it helps us to understand what we do not yet grasp. A scientist for example might use "ifs" in his hypothesis for gravity, not knowing what exactly gravity is, in order to help him study the origins and possibilities/applications of gravity.

So assuredly there is room on both sides to argue for if, but only if one side presents the superior case should the winner be declared. ;)

To Truth!
-logicae

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@oromagi

The thesis is "if... because" not "if... or" Read the thesis to the end, yeah? However, if you want to argue the point, enjoin the debate. This is not the place to do that, and I will not respond otherwise.

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@fauxlaw

Is the thesis

"IF is the most useless word in any language,"
or
"IF only acknowledges that which is currently not true?"

I think I can find many words less useful than a conditional conjunction. Conjunctions are pretty important words.
I also think I can find exceptions to "only not true."

For example, "If you feel like drinking, there's some vodka in the freezer." The statement does not acknowledge that the guest doesn't feel like drinking, it only acknowledges (or at least pretends to acknowledge) that the host is unaware of the guest's preference. There's nothing that is necessarily untrue and given that the vodka is chilled, a fair possibility that the statement is true.