Instigator / Pro
6
1415
rating
47
debates
36.17%
won
Topic

Hospitals directly cause overpopulation

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
0
6
Sources points
2
4
Spelling and grammar points
2
2
Conduct points
2
2

With 2 votes and 8 points ahead, the winner is ...

Nevets
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More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Society
Time for argument
Two days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
10,000
Contender / Con
14
1544
rating
23
debates
56.52%
won
Description
~ 0 / 5,000

No information

Round 1
Pro
My claim is that because hospitals cure humans, those humans, which are to die and to accept their fate as death. Hospitals are not to exist because it cures people who are meant to be dead. The population thus consists of all the people who are not to be dead + some people who are meant to be dead, and the more the latter value is, the more extra people there are, and that is how overpopulation appears. Because humans value their distinctive groups as much as their collective species and individualism, and humans are the only animal so far that can develop medicine and so on, thus that is how overpopulation is caused.
Con
User2006 wrote....
My claim is that because hospitals cure humans, those humans, which are to die and to accept their fate as death. Hospitals are not to exist because it cures people who are meant to be dead. The population thus consists of all the people who are not to be dead + some people who are meant to be dead, and the more the latter value is, the more extra people there are, and that is how overpopulation appears. Because humans value their distinctive groups as much as their collective species and individualism, and humans are the only animal so far that can develop medicine and so on, thus that is how overpopulation is caused.
I argue that a Hospital, using common sense alone, could not be considered a direct cause of over-population, in the event of over population.

Let us take a look at what a Hosptial ultimately is.

hospital is a health care institution
Now before we take in to account the specialised health care and medical staff which work in Hospitals, we must look at what a Hospital fundamentally is.
It is a building.
A building on it's own requires building by Humans. Mostly construction workers.

Now once we have established this ground base, we can now move on to evaluate the medical staff which work in this institution.
The medical staff which work in the health care institution, already have something in common with eachother already. That being, they are born, already.

Once a person is born. That person has an instinct to survive. Babies that do not have this survival instinct, refuse to suckle, and they require force feeding, or they will die. Medical staff will do everything they possibly can to keep this baby alive, by force feeding it, because once a human is born, we do everything in our power to sustain that life. It is simply survival instinct. All Animals have it. I would imagine.

So therefore medical staff would be nothing more than an "indirect cause" of over population, in the event of over population.

The real cause would be sex. And not using contraception.
If the world is over populated, this would need to be solved, not by killing people, or refusing to help in the event they are getting savaged by a group of Moroccon wild dogs, but by limiting the amount of births we allow, via education and contraception.

So lack of education and contraception, would be considered the "direct causes" of over population.

This is my main argument ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Below is simply additional to fill blank space.


Now let us see of the wikipedia community agrees with my argument?

Overpopulation occurs when a speciespopulation exceeds the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. It can result from an increase in births (fertility rate),
So we see the Wikipedia community agrees with me.
The very first cause, wikipedia mentioned, was "Births".

I am not sure i personally agree with Wikipedia on theiir list of other causes, and i think they are all "indirect", and come "after" the main cause, of "Births".

a decline in the mortality rate

Sure, we can blame mortality rates. But if education and contraception had been performed in the first instance, there would be no requirement for forminng suicide pacts.

 increase in immigration
Again, if education and contraception had been practised, there would be no requirement for what the left wing would deem racist measures.

Now i do believe that this one above, could be considered a little more "direct". In the event of a natural disaster, a Famine or a Drought could lead to unsustainability due to resource depletion, and in this event there would likely be a war over the remaining resources so the over population crisis would sort itself out this way anyway, and in the event of reduced medical supplies, there would not be much hospitals can do about it anyway, as Hospitals also require certain resources, and without those, they will be less effective. So quite simply, a Hospital cannot perform very well anyway in an over-populated world. By the fact that Hospitals still have resources to treat people with, is evidence of the degree the world is overpopulated.
In Britain the NHS is feeling the punch. But the Hospitals do still have resources. And there are probably still political options left open for politicians to improve the NHS. It is perhaps not all a resource based issue. And just as much a financial management issue. 

But this shows, that Hospitals cannot be blamed for over population, as hospitals will "suffer" in the event of over-population.
So Hopsitals are not the cause of over-population.
But their ability to provide adequate service in the event of over-population, could see them become a "victim" of over population.

Also what constitutes over population also depends on geographical area.
How much renewable resource an area has, versus non renewable.

London for example, is able to sustain up to 12 million people by day.

But in the Sahara, where there is a serious risk of starvation, Londoners would not be able to survive in the Sahara for very long, and their numbers would reduce "rapidly". War and disease would break out. And they would begin starving. And any hospital that tried to treat those individuals, quite simply would not have the resources to do so. The number of humans that could survive, would deplete all the way down to a very small number, that are actually able to forge a living out of what little resource the Sahara has to offer.

an increase in immigration, or an unsustainable biome and depletion of resources. It is possible for very sparsely populated areas to be overpopulated if the area has a meagre or non-existent capability to sustain life (e.g. a desert). Advocates of population moderation cite issues like quality of lifecarrying capacity and risk of starvation as a basis to argue against continuing high human population growth and for population decline.
I provided some links and sources.
However it was mostly common sense. Were not really required.

But no.
Hospitals are a very "indirect cause". Or, no cause at-all.

Hospitals can only provide adequate treatment when the world is not over-populated.
And whilst they are able to provide adequate treatment, of course, they should.
People tend to love their loved ones. And do not want to see them die.

Contraception and Education are the defining root factors.
And perhaps responsibility.
Round 2
Pro
Because I am basically out of time, thus I may not be in my best shape or form because I had a nap just before and I just realized I hadn't seen your argument for almost 2 days. Don't ask, it is called unquestioned answers.

Let us take a look at what a Hosptial ultimately is.

hospital is a health care institution.
As long as the hospital is a healthcare institution, it saves people. It saves people that are going to be dead if they aren't in the hospital.

Overpopulation is an undesirable condition where the number of the existing human population exceeds the carrying capacity of Earth. Overpopulation is caused by several factors. Reduced mortality rate, better medical facilities, depletion of precious resources are few of the causes which result in overpopulation. This is a citation straight from a site where when I search overpopulation, it comes up. Prove that it is unreliable. Site here:https://www.conserve-energy-future.com/causes-effects-solutions-of-overpopulation.php

One of its stating factors is better medical facilities, which ARE hospitals. Hospital is a factor of overpopulation on these sites also:

That is not all. I am simply too lazy to post like 8 pages of similar information. Go disprove them themselves one at a time or all at once. I grant you the right to do so.

Overpopulation, without saying, refers to the overload of PEOPLE, HUMANS. Now let's define what makes a person a part of the population:
1. Not dead
2. Legally exist(Not missing, not being dead within governmental verdict)
The census was finishing counting the US within the past couple of days. Let's hear what they say, because every single person is one person, and a dead person does not, and overpopulation counts only to the people that are alive and in contact. 
Who Should Be Counted and Where?
You should be counted where you are living and sleeping most of the time as of April 1, 2020. If you are responding for your home, count everyone who lives and sleeps there most of the time as of April 1, 2020. This includes young children, foster children, roommates, and any family members or friends who are living with you, even temporarily. https://2020census.gov/en/ways-to-respond.html?cid=20003:census%202020:sem.ga:p:dm:en:&utm_source=sem.ga&utm_medium=p&utm_campaign=dm:en&utm_content=20003&utm_term=census%202020
The census, who has the most right to say when it comes to population and in extension overpopulation, states it. You can't have dead people in your house and expect to count them as people. The government also doesn't want people to be missing hence that is why the census exists.

Enough about arguing about personhood, now let me prove how hospitals cause overpopulation:
This source proves that nature balances humanity out by killing the unnecessary population. These include supervolcano eruptions, forest fires(Late Jan to Feb), viruses(Jan-Now), and even earthquakes and asteroids. These are all ways that unintentionally and unironically balance the human population out. Humans can perfectly sustain if they didn't build facilities for healthcare, that were called hospitals. 

Hospitals save the people that are supposed to be dead, and these dead people, if they are(I don't want them to be dead, and I don't see overpopulation as bad, just so you know), will make earth's population balanced, consider earth can sustain up to a level of people, and if it is over that, much more people will live in despair consider the resources aren't enough, simply. Hospitals range from repairing minor injuries to repairing critical punctures, just like that. 

Hospitals have truly saved people that are on the verge of death. Some are even dead temporarily and were pulled back to life because of the medical masters sitting and standing in the ambulance. Dead people don't count towards the population, and we had brought them back for occasions in which they are externally dying. Tech suggests that it will be possible to bring the dead alive fully in the future, so then, this topic is in no doubt by that time consider then, rich people will make their older generations back to life, and hospitals will do that, and that means they are brought dead to life and is not meant to be alive again, and they would cause overpopulation. 

Hospitals brought back people who are on the verge of death or even already dying. I wasn't lying. https://time.com/3614815/hospital-patient-safety-errors/ Hospitals have caused about 500,000 people that are overpopulation, and that is the patients that are on the verge of death more people are catching a disease that will let them die, and it is the treatment of medical facilities that make them overpopulation because they are meant to be dead and they are not. In the first-person perspective, there is another one. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/332k1c/serious_redditors_who_have_been_clinically_dead/

Also, the coronavirus statistic: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/ Of these, at least 319,000 people are overpopulation, because they are, naturally, supposed to be dead. It is hospitals that made them live, and as well make them overpopulation because naturally they aren't meant to live, and they are who the nature filtered out to keep humanity balanced in population.

As well, because hospitals houses most childbirth and childbirth is the cause of population and by extension, overpopulation, thus hospitals, in this way also, are causing overpopulation.

Your turn now.
Con
User2006 wrote....
Overpopulation is an undesirable condition where the number of the existing human population exceeds the carrying capacity of Earth. Overpopulation is caused by several factors. Reduced mortality rate, better medical facilities, depletion of precious resources are few of the causes which result in overpopulation. This is a citation straight from a site where when I search overpopulation, it comes up. Prove that it is unreliable. Site here:https://www.conserve-energy-future.com/causes-effects-solutions-of-overpopulation.php


Your very own source pointed to education, and birth control, as being the solution to the problem you posit.
And that is exactly what i said in round 1.
Therefore the root cause is actually lack of education, and lack of birth control.

Solutions to over population
Better Education: One of the first measures is to implement policies reflecting social change. Educating the masses helps them understand the need to have one or two children at the most. Similarly, education plays a vital role in understanding latest technologies like CloudDesktopOnline that are making huge waves in the world of computing. Families that are facing a hard life and choose to have four or five children should be discouraged. Family planning and efficient birth control can help in women making their own reproductive choices. Open dialogue on abortion and voluntary sterilization should be seen when talking about overpopulation.

So this source above, used by my opponent, but which can also be used by me, pretty much defeats his entire argument


Now regarding the rest of my opponents argument. I will quote one small section.
The section i deem his key point

user2006 wrote...
This source proves that nature balances humanity out by killing the unnecessary population. These include supervolcano eruptions, forest fires(Late Jan to Feb), viruses(Jan-Now), and even earthquakes and asteroids. These are all ways that unintentionally and unironically balance the human population out. Humans can perfectly sustain if they didn't build facilities for healthcare, that were called hospitals. 

Hospitals save the people that are supposed to be dead, and these dead people,
Quite simply, this cannot possibly be true.
Nature provided humans with an inbuilt survival instinct.
If we are able to save ourselves from pending disaster, by taking evasive action, then we do so within the laws already established by reality and nature, and therefore we are quite entitled to.
However nature will decide when it is time for us to stop fighting back.
Quick simply, we will not be able to fight back, because we will not have the resources to do so.
This does not mean the end of the human race however. It simply means that human numbers will reduce to a point where they are living within sustainability again, and will now have the resources to prevent farther devolvement by recommensing fighting back.

It would however be preferable that education and birth control was practised, instead of allowing disproprtionate amounts of births to add to the sufferage experienced by those living beings that now have to suffer poor living standards, and possibly face even being euthenised by your over-population model, and insistance that they should just accept living in abject pain and torment and not seek medical help, as "living" is bad, even though giving birth to too many, is good.

I now revert to the second part of my post in round 1.

I originally said it was just to fill in blank space. That was because i felt it innapropriate given how little my opponent had originally expanded and elaborated. But now he has, i shall copy and paste it, as part of my main argument, to end with
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let us see of the wikipedia community agrees with my argument?

Overpopulation occurs when a speciespopulation exceeds the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. It can result from an increase in births (fertility rate),
So we see the Wikipedia community agrees with me.
The very first cause, wikipedia mentioned, was "Births".

I am not sure i personally agree with Wikipedia on theiir list of other causes, and i think they are all "indirect", and come "after" the main cause, of "Births".

a decline in the mortality rate

Sure, we can blame mortality rates. But if education and contraception had been performed in the first instance, there would be no requirement for forminng suicide pacts.

 increase in immigration
Again, if education and contraception had been practised, there would be no requirement for what the left wing would deem racist measures.

Now i do believe that this one above, could be considered a little more "direct". In the event of a natural disaster, a Famine or a Drought could lead to unsustainability due to resource depletion, and in this event there would likely be a war over the remaining resources so the over population crisis would sort itself out this way anyway, and in the event of reduced medical supplies, there would not be much hospitals can do about it anyway, as Hospitals also require certain resources, and without those, they will be less effective. So quite simply, a Hospital cannot perform very well anyway in an over-populated world. By the fact that Hospitals still have resources to treat people with, is evidence of the degree the world is overpopulated.
In Britain the NHS is feeling the punch. But the Hospitals do still have resources. And there are probably still political options left open for politicians to improve the NHS. It is perhaps not all a resource based issue. And just as much a financial management issue. 

But this shows, that Hospitals cannot be blamed for over population, as hospitals will "suffer" in the event of over-population.
So Hopsitals are not the cause of over-population.
But their ability to provide adequate service in the event of over-population, could see them become a "victim" of over population.

Also what constitutes over population also depends on geographical area.
How much renewable resource an area has, versus non renewable.

London for example, is able to sustain up to 12 million people by day.

But in the Sahara, where there is a serious risk of starvation, Londoners would not be able to survive in the Sahara for very long, and their numbers would reduce "rapidly". War and disease would break out. And they would begin starving. And any hospital that tried to treat those individuals, quite simply would not have the resources to do so. The number of humans that could survive, would deplete all the way down to a very small number, that are actually able to forge a living out of what little resource the Sahara has to offer.

an increase in immigration, or an unsustainable biome and depletion of resources. It is possible for very sparsely populated areas to be overpopulated if the area has a meagre or non-existent capability to sustain life (e.g. a desert). Advocates of population moderation cite issues like quality of lifecarrying capacity and risk of starvation as a basis to argue against continuing high human population growth and for population decline.
I provided some links and sources.
However it was mostly common sense. Were not really required.

But no.
Hospitals are a very "indirect cause". Or, no cause at-all.

Hospitals can only provide adequate treatment when the world is not over-populated.
And whilst they are able to provide adequate treatment, of course, they should.
People tend to love their loved ones. And do not want to see them die.

Contraception and Education are the defining root factors.
And perhaps responsibility.