Instigator / Pro
15
1480
rating
97
debates
31.96%
won
Topic

seldiora (instigator of this debate) would beat Oromagi in a rap battle

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
3
6
Sources points
6
6
Spelling and grammar points
3
3
Conduct points
3
3

With 3 votes and 3 points ahead, the winner is ...

oromagi
Parameters
More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Miscellaneous
Time for argument
Two days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
5,000
Contender / Con
18
1947
rating
92
debates
100.0%
won
Description
~ 343 / 5,000

rap battle: having a rapping contest against someone else, where most of the lyrics are insults directed at the other rapper which have to rhyme at the same time. Winner is that with better rhythm, flow, wordplay, etc.

Assume that in this theoretical rap battle we have the same amount of line limit and time limit

Burden of proof is shared.

Round 1
Pro
my opponent says in the comment section that just because he is never going to accept an actual rap battle means that I can't prove the title. However, *because* he admits that he has zero rap experience (and will NEVER have any because he says he will never accept a rap battle), I would definitely defeat him in a rap battle. He has only said to take rhetoric classes, which are useful for nonfiction writing, but he has never proved that he knows verse and prose well. Take a look at one of my best rounds, from DDO (edited slightly):

Truth got no good round, all I hear are some terrible sounds
Bein' a howlin' poor hound, his life is in my hands, my powers have limitless bounds
There's only one true man in this town, he's the one who can truly pound you down
Yeah that me, I can embarrass you, make you put on your weddin' gown

Truth's like light precipitation, easily fainted and swayed, gave in little dedication
While I got stormy foundation, no wind can wipe me away, got quick reformation
My insults make his looks like lamentations; he's a village an' I'm a world-wide power nation
His family better prepare for his cremation, search for a haven, a good safe location

But it's useless, there ain't no hidin' from me, it's futile for such resistance
We can tell he was muse-less, no inspirin' words, his rhymes just vanish out of existence
He think he got me murdered, think again, "smart man", I'm not that easily defeated
He can't take no more or go further, I stand a giant over him, mission completed

To even get the slightest chance at me, you need more than just those puny verses
Glancin' at his collapsin' structure gives me glee, I know I cast successful curses
I masterfully manipulate the language, while still managin' to mutilate Seeker
He's peein' his pants over there in anguish, to him I'm a deadly Grim Reaper

This over, Truth's lost his third challenge, that couldn't even be considered a "good try"
I'm still a Ferrari while he's still a rover; I bet from losin' he got a bunch of black eyes

Now, I could analyze this deeply, but let me quickly go over why this is very difficult to beat: I rhymed round, sounds, hounds, bound, town, pound, down, gown, with reference to the sounds from his merely being a hound. Then I say that he is precipitation and little dedication compared to my storm with reformation. I then talk about how he's only a village while I'm a power nation. The next verse is also very tricky, with useless rhyming museless, hidin with inspirin, resistance with existence. The second to last verse is arguably the strongest, with verses rhyming with curses, me and glee, glancin' versus collapsin', and finally rhyming his name Seeker with Reaper. Rapping, rhythm, takes practice, takes a lot of inspiration and rhyming. I've had years of experience with writing poetry (especially with my "A Medieval Tale" from https://www.deviantart.com/sel-diora/art/A-Medieval-Tale-477108579 being a very challenging haiku based challenge with occasional rhyming that Oromagi has not demonstrated), with writing songs (https://www.noteflight.com/profile/ae3207969e43c53cf5fd9c5303e0ca8ae109a346), I know about flow and the way that rap relating things should work. It took me years to get to this level, and even a professional rapper agree it takes time to polish your skills and improve your rapping ability (https://rapgamenow.com/get-good-at-rapping-answer/). 

Unless Oromagi demonstrates he is a genius in terms of musical phrasing such that he can write amazing rap and be able to beat or even draw me, I think he stands no chance with merely a rhetoric class under his belt. Remember, he has to know how to rhyme, how to set up various insults in comparison, simile, or any other way. Through his debates, he has shown power to penetrate arguments and recite sources. But without any strong original wording of his own, it's hard to see how he could possibly beat me in a rap battle.
Con
Thx, seldiora.

THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE

DEFINITONS:

BEAT [transative verb] is "to win against; to defeat or overcome; to do better than, outdo, or excel (someone) in a particular, competitive event."

BATTLE RAP is "a type of rapping that includes bragging, insults and boasting content.  Battling can occur on recorded albums, though rap battles are often recited or freestyled spontaneously in live battles, "where MCs will perform on the same stage to see who has the better verses".

BURDEN of PROOF:

WiKiPEDiA advises:

  • "When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.   This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence." Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion – "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – which is known as the Sagan standard."
    • PRO is the instigator of this debate as well as the maker of extraordinary claims. 
    • The BURDEN of PROOF remains PRO's by any rational understanding of such burden and in spite of PRO's tactical offering that the burden is shared.
  • CON interprets PRO's resolution to mean that CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail as unproven.
PRO1R1:

However, *because* he admits that he has zero rap experience (and will NEVER have any because he says he will never accept a rap battle), I would definitely defeat him in a rap battle.
  • OBJECTION:  CON has made no such concession in the context of this debate and related remark by this debater in other debates or forum postings is entirely inadmissible as evidence in this debate.
PRO2R1:

Unless Oromagi demonstrates he is a genius in terms of musical phrasing such that he can write amazing rap and be able to beat or even draw me, I think he stands no chance with merely a rhetoric class under his belt.
  • This statement is quite false.  CON has no need to demonstrate any lyrical capacity here, only to show that PRO can't prove his thesis.  The less CON offers in terms of relative poetic experience in the context of this debate, the more unproven and unprovable PRO's thesis.
CONCLUSION:

  • PRO has made the fatal mistake of offering speculation about some hypothetical rap battle in the form of a debate as a weak substitute or potential call-out in lieu of an actual rap competition, which contest CON hardily advocates for but considers this debate format a poor venue.  Further, CON argues that non-debate competitions in the DEBATEART venue lessens the quality of debates overall and reflects talents irrelevant to our present mission of high quality debate.
CON looks forward to PRO's R2 argument.

SOURCES


Round 2
Pro
Oromagi has presented no evidence to the contrary and my argument stands. I have shown my best rap from my past battle, I have shown my poem experience and my knowledge of song flow to similarly understand how rap songs or verse should work. He claims that because there is no evidence that he is bad, I cannot prove that I will beat him. But lack of evidence would prove that he has indeed not participated in a rap battle, hence having no experience. He has provided no poems to prove that he at least has a basis to go upon before going into a rap battle. *He has shown no evidence that he is good, to contradict my claims.*

Consider this: If I said Eminem could beat someone who had no sample of rap battles or poems known, you would definitely agree with no indication that this "someone" is a genius. If that someone cannot come up with any sample of rap that has potential, then Eminem holds the grounds as he is an extremely well known rapper with years of experience and countless songs that achieved national recognition.

I am not as nearly as famous or amazing like Eminem, but I have some experience under my belt which would by default defeat someone who has provided no evidence to the contrary. If Oromagi was indeed decent at rapping and could beat me, he could even compose something on the spot to defeat my verses. But by refusing to provide any evidence, he infers that indeed, my suspicions are correct and that he cannot rap as well as me. 

Oromagi's argument doesn't hold up because it doesn't make sense. Imagine it was some other vague skill that I would not truly know his skill within. I took the gambit and guessed that Oromagi did not have time to gain rapping skills, poem skills, et cetera. It is up to Oromagi to throw off my gambit and prove me wrong. If I said I was better at piano than Oromagi and showed myself playing some song, then it would only make sense for Oromagi to play an even more difficult song, rather than stating something like "he does not know how well I can play so he cannot say this piano ability is better than mine". Doesn't this seem like the argument that only someone would lose would say? If he could truly play the piano better than me, why wouldn't he show this? It doesn't make sense. By avoiding challenging the topic, Oromagi implies that he would in fact lose the rap battle (since he is unable to display his rap style or evidence that he may be good at rapping).

Con
Thx, seldiora.

THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE

DEFINITONS:

PRO has made no complaint regarding definitions.  Definitions stand.

BURDEN of PROOF:

By non-response, PRO accepts CON's correction regarding burden of proof.

  • CON interprets PRO's resolution to mean that CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail as unproven.
PRO1R2:

  • OBJECTION:  CON has made no such concession in the context of this debate and related remark by this debater in other debates or forum postings is entirely inadmissible as evidence in this debate.
    • PRO dropped this argument.  CON has never critiqued his own experience in rap.
PRO2R2:

  • This statement is quite false.  CON has no need to demonstrate any lyrical capacity here, only to show that PRO can't prove his thesis.  The less CON offers in terms of relative poetic experience in the context of this debate, the more unproven and unprovable PRO's thesis.
    • PRO dropped this argument.
PRO3R2:

  • Oromagi has presented no evidence to the contrary and my argument stands.
    • On the contrary, CON argued that no evidence is available for PRO to present which is itself evidence, contradiction, and stands refuted by PRO.
      • Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but it is evidence of absence of evidence.
PRO4R2:

  • I have shown my best
    • Prior experience is irrelevant because prior experience is not a VOTER consideration when deciding a subjective preference between two works of art.
    • lack of evidence would prove that he has indeed not participated in a rap battle, hence having no experience
      • A refusal to participate on aesthetic and formal grounds is not evidence of prior experience or lack thereof.
  • Consider this: If I said Eminem could beat someone who had no sample of rap battles or poems known, you would definitely agree with no indication that this "someone" is a genius. If that someone cannot come up with any sample of rap that has potential, then Eminem holds the grounds as he is an extremely well known rapper with years of experience and countless songs that achieved national recognition.
    • If Eminem challenged a stranger to a rap battle and the stranger said "no, thank you" and Eminem went on to declare victory over that stranger in a rap battle that never took place, I would declare Eminem an asshole.

  • But by refusing to provide any evidence, he infers that indeed, my suspicions are correct and that he cannot rap as well as me. 
    • PRO falsely assumes that the only reason one debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle with another debater is lesser talent.  In truth, there are many reason a debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle on debate website.
PRO5R2:

  • Oromagi's argument doesn't hold up because it doesn't make sense. Imagine it was some other vague skill that I would not truly know his skill within.  If I said I was better at piano than Oromagi and showed myself playing some song, then it would only make sense for Oromagi to play an even more difficult song, rather than stating something like "he does not know how well I can play so he cannot say this piano ability is better than mine". Doesn't this seem like the argument that only someone would lose would say? If he could truly play the piano better than me, why wouldn't he show this? It doesn't make sense. By avoiding challenging the topic, Oromagi implies that he would in fact lose the rap battle (since he is unable to display his rap style or evidence that he may be good at rapping).
    • Alright, let's move the analogy to debating.  If PRO challenged CON to a debate and CON refused that debate would PRO be justified in declaring victory in that debate which never took place?  No, of course not.  Each debate depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject, command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc.  Even talented and experienced debater sometime have to forfeit.  One cannot predict the outcome based on prior debate history.

CON1R2:

  • PRO cannot predict the future.  PRO has offered no evidence that PRO has any means of reliably predicting the future and the future is notoriously difficult to predict.
CONSUM2:

  • PRO has made the fatal mistake of offering speculation about some hypothetical rap battle in the form of a debate as a weak substitute or potential call-out in lieu of an actual rap competition, which type of contest CON hardily advocates for but considers this debate specific website a poor venue.  Further, CON argues that non-debate competitions in the DEBATEART venue lessens the quality of debates overall and reflects talents irrelevant to our present mission of high quality debate.
CON looks forward to PRO's final argument.





Round 3
Pro
The core of oromagi's argument comes down to his vague logic that people might refuse a debate for unknown reasons and that " Each debate depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject, command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc.  Even talented and experienced debater sometime have to forfeit. He falsely moves the goal posts into supporting the idea that someone can claim they won, while they have not even had a debate.

The point I am trying to make is that if Eminem tried to see how strong a rapper someone was and they were unwilling to reveal their information, then you can only presume that the rapper with endless experience, countless songs, and rapping ability has won. This is because *it takes time and experience to get good at rapping*. Oromagi has neither proven that he has artistic genius enough to think of rapping that can rival my own ability. Oromagi is merely shrugging off the topic rather than actually proving his side. This would imply that there is no defeat or victory, and that there is no topic any more. 

If Oromagi is proposing a draw for this debate, then I gladly accept, as he seems unwilling to provide any counter-evidence to prove that I can't win a rap battle against him. I have fulfilled my part of the burden of proof in giving plausible evidence why I have enough experience and prose to defeat someone with no experience (as Oromagi has no rap battles anywhere). I counter his "I don't have to show my experience" with my own argument: How can you prove that I *can't* beat you if your experience is unknown?

Case closed. Vote draw (if Oromagi desires) or Pro (if he refuses to give up)
Con
Thx, seldiora

THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE

DEFINITONS:

  Definitions stand

B of P:

PRO does not deny full burden of proof is his despite call for shared burden in description.  Fortunetelling is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary  proof.  CON's burden ends at refraining from any rap battle with PRO

  • CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail as unproven
PRO1R3:

    • PRO claims that CON admitted to zero rap experience.
    • Refuted by CON, PRO dropped this argument
PRO2R3:

  • PRO claims that CON must demonstrate lyrical genius in order to overcome a talent like his. 
  • Refuted by CON, PRO scampered away from this claim.
PRO3R3:

  • PRO claims that CON has not presented evidence when in fact CON has argued that CON's refusal to rap in a debate format is not just evidence but the only piece of evidence with any bearing on PRO's thesis.  CON's evidence renders PRO's argument unprovable.
  • PRO dropped any further claim of "no evidence."
PRO4R3:

CON argued:

  • Prior experience is irrelevant because prior experience is not a VOTER consideration when deciding a subjective preference between two works of art.
    • The point I am trying to make is that if Eminem tried to see how strong a rapper someone was and they were unwilling to reveal their information, then you can only presume that the rapper with endless experience, countless songs, and rapping ability has won
      • PRESUME is defined as "to assume or suggest to be true (without proof); to take for granted, to suppose."
        • By acknowledging that PRO's belief lacks proof, PRO concedes this point.
CON argued:

  • If Eminem challenged a stranger to a rap battle and the stranger said "no, thank you" and Eminem went on to declare victory over that stranger in a rap battle that never took place, I would declare Eminem an asshole.
    • Let's note that PRO is not arguing odds,  that seldiora might likely beat oromagi in a rap battle, PRO is asserting as fact a hypothetical future event.
    • PRO dropped this argument.
CON argued:

  • There are many reason a debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle on a  debate website.   A refusal to participate on aesthetic and formal grounds is not evidence of prior experience or lack thereof.
    • PRO never addressed the legitimacy of rap battling in a forum designed for debates.
    • PRO called CON's argument "vague logic that people might refuse a debate for unknown reason" which either overlooks or deliberately ignores CON's clearly stated reasons.
    • PRO failed to engage PRO's argument on aesthetic grounds.

PRO5R3:

CON argued:

  • If PRO challenged CON to a debate and CON refused that debate would PRO be justified in declaring victory in that debate which never took place?  No, of course not.  Each debate depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject, command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc.  Even talented and experienced debater sometime have to forfeit.  One cannot predict the outcome based on prior debate history.
    • CON counters:
      • He falsely moves the goal posts into supporting the idea that someone can claim they won, while they have not even had a debate
        • Baloney.  Analogies aren't moving the goalpost.  Analogies offer a comparison between two things for the purpose of clarification or explanation.  If we replace the pronouns of this sentence with their relevant proper nouns we get a very fair restatement of PRO's thesis:
          • the idea that [seldiora] can claim [seldiora] won, while [seldiora and oromagi] have not even had a [rap battle]
          • compares quite nicely with THESIS: seldiora WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE
          • Either PRO has forgotten his own thesis statement or is mischaracterizing CON's restatement of thesis as 'moving the goalposts.'
            • PRO dropped CON's analogy in favor of an unreasonable accusation.

CON1R3:

  • PRO cannot predict the future.  PRO has offered no evidence that PRO has any means of reliably predicting the future and the future is notoriously difficult to predict.
    • CON dropped this argument entirely.
CONCLUSION:

    If Oromagi is proposing a draw for this debate, then I gladly accept, as he seems unwilling to provide any counter-evidence to prove that I can't win a rap battle against him
  • PRO just doesn't seem to fathom CON's counter-evidence.  PRO can't win the game because CON wont play the game.  Talent never enters into it.
  • CON counts 7 dropped arguments as well as one concession.
    • PRO's request for a draw is rejected as unwarranted.  PRO barely engaged CON's arguments
  • CON asks VOTERS to find ARGUMENTS in favor of CON
  • Thanks to seldiora for instigating
  • Thanks to all VOTERS for their kind consideration
SOURCES: