Instigator / Pro

Mall

1492

rating

333

debates

40.69%

won

Topic

#2683

There is no general financial freedom.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 4 votes and with 11 points ahead, the winner is...

Mall

Tags

Economics

Parameters

Publication date: 12.18.2020 10:46PM
Last updated date: 02.25.2021 05:42PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 30,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Rishi_D

1464

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Description

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

******The first round will be an expanded version of the debate description. Much information has to be explained more in detail than what the description field will allow.******

This notion of economic freedom/financial freedom is phony.
A previous debate I was in gave me an idea for this topic. I think the person was attempting to demonstrate their "slave free" life while being incognizant of their bondage to monetary currency.

Yes we are in a currency prison system folks. It is made up of what you can call monetary supremacy. It is the supreme ruler of the world and we are subjected to it.

To be continued................

For questions and clarity, please comment, send a message.

Round 1

Mall

12.25.2020 04:12PM

Pro

This notion of economic freedom/financial freedom is phony.

A previous debate I was in gave me an idea for this topic. I think the person was attempting to demonstrate their "slave free" life while being incognizant of their bondage to monetary currency.

Yes we are in a currency prison system folks. It is made up of what you can call monetary supremacy. It is the supreme ruler of the world and we are subjected to it.

Just sit back and observe. Everything we do , no matter what it is, is by in some way , form or fashion connected to currency.

Being in bondage means you're obligated to what you're bonded to. We're obligated to do what? What is necessary to meet the condition of whatever it is we seek to do.

True financial freedom is to be free from finance. If I was financially free, it would mean I no longer have to meet a standard or condition other than what is necessary.

An old friend and I discussed some time ago about this. This was a person that can also see and observe truth . One person that if to be multiplied into a host of individuals on this site, it would shift the popular opinion and voting pool. On to the point and that is we can see that at one time, all there was , was just resources. That's all we've ever needed to obtain the essentials to self sustenance and life balance.

So as time progresses, we think we're solving problems by inventing systems. But the cycle of issues continue and which the result comes that we have today in the big world of commerce. Yes that big financial issue known as debt. They say we have no real money in this country , the U.S. of A.

We're obligated through many means to include the punching in and out of the workplace. The workforce that dictates your schedule, your work life balance in order to keep you submitting to your obligation, that is to what you owe.

It's what you will always owe as long as this system is in place. Unless you're one of those bravehearts. Some have come up with a solution for themselves to break the chains of rent, taxes and so forth by heading towards nature, the forest or a place possibly conducive for cabin shelter.

Now you can try to witness how abrasive it will be to try and maintain your life outside the system that has been maintaining you.

The survival rate for doing so could be dictated by wild life, natural disaster , etc.

Then even with that , just think, in some way, the system was used to provide for you in perhaps transporting to , maintaining in, securing the stabliity of yourself in a nature like environment. Let's think of tools, supplies, industrial products and so forth that will have to be used , prepared , obtained on the journey to true financial freedom. It may be free for you but no purge of the system. The system stills maintains the wild park authority rangers that mostly will be your safety net. I understand much land thought to be not owned can be private areas unbeknownst to you. There's that factor of trespass of a territory. You must have a plan, knowing what you're in for going to a moneyless lifestyle.

Aside from that least likely route of existence for anyone, the dollar is supreme in your life.

That financial condition has to be met in some kind of way just to save your life.

I understand when people say they're financially free, they have a prolific source of monetary funds. You're still beholden to meet your bills. You have greater room and choices of purchases and so you say you have freedom. You have a greater scale to decide the exchange of goods and services that makes it more likely to fit your wants. Enough room to get your needs presumably so now to take care of your wants.

Unlike the person that has a small income, they have less room , less freedom to buy what they desire. So this has them more obligated, more restrained in what they can do. Sometimes the restraint is so tight, some needs will be cut or sacrificed.

But both parties are in the prison system. Some prisoners have more space, a bigger cell, with privilege or much more privilege than others.

Understand you're imprisoned to what you do to get what it is to get. So a condition to meet via some sort of labor to get a wage that meets another condition to get what it is to get. An all around enslavement cycle.

As said, both parties in the prison system are obligated under that system that maintains and provides for them. Although one party has more privilege or more freedom within, they're still within. One side has a larger capacity of things to freely choose of while all of it dictated inside the prison. That dictation is still that obligation or subjection to meeting monetary condition.

This speaks to another debate topic that was in reference to the business owner. There are many business owners in prison. They run all kinds of businesses dealing with contraband and legal services dealing with virtually knick knack items such as ramen noodles, postage stamps, etc. to hire a staff of inmates for cleaning , "housekeeping"/laundry type services.

So the business owners are beholden to the system and market as the business owner on the outside is .

True freedom or economic freedom is free from any obligation of the economic system. Just being free to have a wider variety of purchasing power under obligation while still being obligated in the things you do to participate and live in the system is imprisonment.

Now this topic is by far the greatest arena that has to take much observation. If you think or argue that there is no imprisonment other than the penal system, there's nothing beyond freedom than it in the world of economic commerce, you're not attentive or observant to the world around you.

Rishi_D

01.01.2021 04:25AM

Con

To begin, I'd first like to thank Pro for creating this debate and I am looking forward to a fruitful discussion.

I will be arguing that there is a such thing as financial freedom and that it is possible to be financially free. Firstly, the definition of Financial Freedom as per the Economic Times of India is "To have money in the bank to allocate as one desires, and to make all the decisions associated with that earning is a financial freedom to savour."(https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/plan/what-is-financial-freedom-it-means-different-things-for-different-people/articleshow/79095130.cms)

Financial freedom as defined above is clearly achievable and many people do feel as if they are financially free. In fact in 2019 CNBC found that 29% of Americans reported to be financially healthy. (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/15/29-percent-of-americans-are-financially-healthy.html) Although it is indeed a small percentage of the American population, it does show that it is not impossible to be financially free.

Furthermore, Pro has argued that we are somehow bound to currency and that it is impossible to achieve financial freedom even with prolific amounts of money. However what they fail to realize is that although we are indeed bound to currency that does not mean that we cannot achieve financial freedom.

To provide an example, we are humans who have the freedom to express religious thought. However we are bound within the constraints of the law within which we can express our religious beliefs. For example, one cannot express their so-called religious freedom by committing an act of terror. So, in conclusion, although we have the freedom to express our religious ideas we cannot go beyond the limits of the law.

So, to put this in the context of this topic, we can achieve financial freedom but also at the same time be bound to paying off loans, taxes, essential goods, etc.

Pro's entire argument as to why there is no such thing as financial freedom rests upon the false premise that if we are bound to something we cannot, at the same time, be free. However, as I have explained above that is just not true.

In conclusion, financial freedom is possible through limited spending and smart saving. Thus if financial freedom can be achieved then it must exist as an existing entity.

Round 2

Mall

01.06.2021 04:33PM

Pro

"Financial freedom as defined above is clearly achievable and many people do feel as if they are financially free."

I feel I'm free but yet am still a slave. What I feel is not necessarily reality.

"However what they fail to realize is that although we are indeed bound to currency that does not mean that we cannot achieve financial freedom."

Financially free to do what? Is it anything?

Go over my prison and business owner illustration again. It's not freedom, its a vast amount of more privileges one can have. But one is still bound in some way.

Is a free person bound in some form or fashion ?

As stated in an outlier situation, one that is financially free, free from finances,free from actions served to collect or earn funds to maintain finances is not bonded to any of that.

Otherwise the measure of freedom is just too arbitrary. I'm more free than you in this prison because I have more freedom to do what it is I do. We're both still prisoners. This is where you have to do cognitive thinking about reality and things being said.

"To provide an example, we are humans who have the freedom to express religious thought. However we are bound within the constraints of the law within which we can express our religious beliefs."

By this illustration, are we free or in bondage?

"For example, one cannot express their so-called religious freedom by committing an act of terror.So, in conclusion, although we have the freedom to express our religious ideas we cannot go beyond the limits of the law."

Bonded to the law, exactly right.

"So, to put this in the context of this topic, we can achieve financial freedom but also at the same time be bound to paying off loans, taxes, essential goods, etc."

Whether you realize it or not, this speaks to the illustration of the "big bosses" as prisoners of the penal prison system.

Buy the way I want you to think about some words you used , "paying off". It's like saying you're finally free, no more debt, no more obligation. As long as you live on this planet, you'll be in somebody's debt obligation. Why? You're still integrated into a currency system. In order to buy, you have to trade services. You're obligated to participate somehow in this so called monopoly.

Back to the point of the prison illustration, you're not more and more free getting closer to the level of an outsider or non-inmate. Paying things off as you say doesn't cancel paying bills. It just frees up a reserve of funds that was going towards one bill but now goes towards another. You are never free from this obligation, financial obligation generally as the debate title puts it.

The more privileged prisoners have the luxury and capital to possibly afford more privileges. But also be bound to obligations within that prison.

Same way with business owners bound to the market.

You're saying free and bonded at the same time. I'm saying we're nothing but bonded with some having more room to move around with a looser bond .

"Pro's entire argument as to why there is no such thing as financial freedom rests upon the false premise that if we are bound to something we cannot, at the same time, be free. However, as I have explained above that is just not true."

How can someone be a slave and free at once?

By this logic the slaves on the plantation prior to 1865 were free . Those that received more leniency to do as they wished within some parameters were free to do so but still bound by the parameters. So we're they slaves or not?

See the measuring stick for this is questionable. Going back to an earlier point, how much financial freedom do I have compared to you?

If someone has more of it than me, I guess I'm less free. What is freedom? Does it just come in increments or is it something that's the opposite of bondage?

We're all at different levels like a prison system. Each one of us has a different level because we're not exactly free from the system , free from finances. This is why the phrase "economically free" , "financially free" is questionable.

"In conclusion, financial freedom is possible through limited spending and smart saving. Thus if financial freedom can be achieved then it must exist as an existing entity."

It doesn't exist in general like the title says. This means it can be achieved in an outlier situation where you are free of finance period, just directly utilizing resources without implementing monetary value and monetary conditions or obligations.

Limited spending isn't financial freedom or a way to it. It would be the opposite way as it is a restraint on what you can buy that makes a restraint on what you could be free to do.

Rishi_D

01.11.2021 03:24AM

Con

To start off my argument for this round I'd like to cite the definition of freedom from the Merriam Webster Dictionary as "the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action." According to this definition of freedom I believe that it is possible to be free financially.

Whether you realize it or not, this speaks to the illustration of the "big bosses" as prisoners of the penal prison system.
Buy the way I want you to think about some words you used , "paying off". It's like saying you're finally free, no more debt, no more obligation. As long as you live on this planet, you'll be in somebody's debt obligation. Why? You're still integrated into a currency system. In order to buy, you have to trade services. You're obligated to participate somehow in this so called monopoly.

To be able to participate in the global economic market one has to recognize that they will have to share ties to currency or be bound to certain transactions just like in the other scenario where one who is expressing their religious freedom is able to express their freedom within the law. Furthermore, I believe it is possible to be financially free as you choose what you spend your money on and how you spend your money. And although you still have to pay taxes and pay off debts there is a certain point where you have enough money to not worry about those things and spend money on luxuries and non-essential items. These purchases and transactions give us financial freedom.

Paying things off as you say doesn't cancel paying bills. It just frees up a reserve of funds that was going towards one bill but now goes towards another.

Yes I agree you are obligated to use your money to pay off certain bills and transactions. However, if you have reserve funds that are used for luxurious purchases then you have all the freedom in the world to do whatever you want with the money in those funds. No one is forcing you or making you buy certain things. Rather it's up to your decision outside of the scope of taxes.

We're all at different levels like a prison system. Each one of us has a different level because we're not exactly free from the system , free from finances. This is why the phrase "economically free" , "financially free" is questionable.

This is not true because it is possible to be financially free as I have explained above. Further there are people who live outside of the prison who are not trapped in debt and payments. These people have reached a phase in their lives where they have enough money to spend however they'd like on whatever' they'd like.

Round 3

Mall

01.17.2021 12:39PM

Pro

"Furthermore, I believe it is possible to be financially free as you choose what you spend your money on and how you spend your money. And although you still have to pay taxes and pay off debts there is a certain point where you have enough money to not worry about those things and spend money on luxuries and non-essential items. These purchases and transactions give us financial freedom."

In other words, a prisoner with more or less room of privileges.

The field slave would have less luxury than the house slave , is that right ?

Myself having more money to be able to buy what I want is freedom of choice within the system of finance which I'm am not free of.

I'm calling myself financially free from a system of finance I'm not free of. We have to get rid of this illusion of financial freedom.

Not only am I "binded" to this so called monopolistic world, I'm bounded in my time and energy used to earn credit to continue being active in the world of finance.

Otherwise I'll find myself on the street, actually free from finance as a destitute, homeless individual that has compromised living arrangements. In this system, you find yourself held to participate or your life compromised.

"No one is forcing you or making you buy certain things. Rather it's up to your decision outside of the scope of taxes."

Well the slave probably always had a choice to escape and you can imagine the remainder of that story.

I don't have a choice to have these "luxuries" or "non-luxuries" without being obligated to something without ramification. This is basically the way to understand this. You're either free or you're not. That means no obligation what so ever other than what's natural based on the laws of nature. I can't be free with some bondage. The only way that coexists is with being bonded with some allotted privileges.

"This is not true because it is possible to be financially free as I have explained above. Further there are people who live outside of the prison who are not trapped in debt and payments. "

You have to explain how you can be free and bonded at the same time and call yourself a free person. Many people that think financial freedom is real have not thought about the words that were thrown together that don't make a lot of sense.

It feels good to say. I think you said folks with more monopoly credit have more financial freedom so called.

This begs the question again as it looks it wasn't addressed.

Are we determining financial freedom as one single state of condition with no levels or is it a difference on the scale based on somebody's "net worth"?

Now , someone that has higher capital than me has more so called financial freedom because they're more free to buy things according to their choice.

So in turn logically and naturally, I have less freedom. The person that has less funds that me is more what? Is more bonded and we can deduce and keep going back and back . I'm sure we can find a person that is only free to buy two things of their choice a week. Maybe not even what they want but what they need so the level of freedom is minimalized even there.

Is the person that builds a higher and higher capital have freedom or is he having more and more restrictions removed to eventually get it?

People that live outside the prison, depending on what you mean by prison, those people are not trapped in debt you say.

I think I made the statement already that as long as you're in the system of monetary supremacy, you're always in debt. Why? You're in the system of it. That's why there's always a monetary obligation to meet to do or obtain anything requiring to meet the obligation or debt.

You think because you have a zero balance right now, you'll free and clear with a permanent zero balance . No , the moment you need food or water, say for instance the water company, they send out a recurring, revolving bill. You consistently use the water so you consistently receive a bill. As long as you use that water, you will never be free from a bill. So you paid off the water bill. That's not a payoff for life. You have to keep paying just like you continue to pay towards a revolving credit card balance if you owe that as well.

Looking at the larger picture , dismissing illusion, it is a cyclic world of monetary flow. You are never free from it generally as the title puts it.

"These people have reached a phase in their lives where they have enough money to spend however they'd like on whatever' they'd like."

So I guess this is saying that these folks have reached the capacity where they can purchase things making them free to do anything.

There's absolutely no bondage, is that right?

Well they're bonded to spending money. They're not free from not doing that. The money that they're spending had to be obtained by meeting some sort of obligation directly or indirectly.

It's like this because of us calling ourselves problem solvers so called. It started with just the basic obligation of trading. That decision to start doing that employed obligation, then continues on the bartering on to currency.

Rishi_D

01.24.2021 12:39PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 4

Mall

01.29.2021 02:08PM

Pro

I won't add much more as there is still a whole entire round to respond to.

But I like you to think of what "financial freedom " is supposed to mean in context of this world.

Being financially free as it is called, you are free with your finances to do what? Whatever your finances allow. So you're free while being leashed, chained, bonded in which those conditions aren't what makes things free but restrained.

What makes the terms "financial freedom" not oxymoronic is the doing away with finances. No obligation, confinement, bondage whatsoever.

Rishi_D

02.05.2021 02:08PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 5

Mall

02.11.2021 05:42PM

Pro

A great challenge to refute or explain being financially free and bonded at the same time.

People have this pseudo, illusionary view of having an abundance of money makes you free or financially free.

It is free or ***more free***? Being more free is a wider range of room to dwell in while being chained and attached to finances.

You're not free of finances, no not generally. You're tied to finances. You're obligated to meet a financial condition in order to do what you want. Now want you what is up to you. You have a freedom of choice but that freedom of choice is subject to you're finances and amount of monetary value.

Your freedom so called is as only as good as money can buy. Now you tell me , what's the difference between someone who can do a lot of what they want with their money versus one that has no limit to what they do?

One with no limit is free, actually free from finances . They're free outside that system of currency. Just that system, not the system of nature and so forth or what else that makes a needed constitution. The other can do many things under restraint..like a slave or prisoner still in the shackle and prison system but has extraordinary allowance.

A slave may not be able to do one thing . Just one single thing. Until they single stipulation is lifted, they remain a slave. Where else can we draw the line?

Someone that is more wealthy than me makes me less free than they are among things to do that money allows to be so . That's how money makes the world go around for people. Without it, a tough time you will have existing experiencing the world rotate night and day.

I can be loaded with power as a multi 500 corporation. An industry larger is more free and I'm less than. We're both bonded because I said more free not free period.

You think about a person that just has an all out wherewithal . There's nothing it seems their money won't buy. That person is free period, correct....no, incorrect.

Not only is this person not free from finances and paying bills , big and small, but what are they obligated to do to have the type of bank account they have?

Whatever the market says for whatever they're in business of the market for.

Whether it's not or is a passion of the person, they're are in bondage to it. To be free to occupy my passion for instance, to participate in it anywhere and how I want doesn't maintain my well being like a penal prison system maintains a prisoner.

Like the stipulations to follow of a prison or suffer the consequences to my living conditions , the same to match with what the ordinances are, supply and demand of the product market to my exclusive business or suffer a loss in business and the worst is to come from there.

So all this was to really think about the words we choose to use. Thinking about them in essence, in singular form , then combining them, oxymorons are created.

When you really think about the two words "financial " and "freedom", I guess it's best to ask whoever you're talking to what is meant by that person using the terms.

I understand on television these words are used as they describe some sort of favorable condition for a person going into some purported lucrative business venture by making an investment.

Experience financial freedom or obtain it by making a lucrative, abundant profit in selling or trading whatever the product is. So getting freedom as it is I guess is not available at the present time before a person gets involved with the product .

Free finances , free of finances or free to do with finances according to individual volition, either way is insensible. Having freedom with finances is absolutely true for people without this get rich quick scheme or whatever you see advertised.

Take a person that is a performer . They travel, they tour and visit different places to perform and receive compensation for what they love to do.

No matter how much they love it, at the same time, no matter how tiring it can be to travel, even though they would like to spend time with family, they're held to their contract, to their obligation.

We're completely in a monetary prison. Everything acts and moves on currency unless one tries to take that outlier scenario as mentioned way back in the debate. Away from that, the bondage to meet a financial requirement or service to obtain a financial credit will be fulfilled to be inside legal capacity to do what is sought.

This is the nature for money to exist. If it were not so, then that means a gray area, a loophole, a weak point, an opening, a leeway, the slack, a "free lunch " can be expanded and exploited to the point where the whole prison system fails, crumbles, falls apart and gets torn down.

Why? If there's one exception of no obligation in the system of obligation, the line drawn has started to be removed so messing with that starts the process to get to the state of no line drawn.

Rishi_D

02.18.2021 05:42PM

Con

#10

Forfeited

Intelligence_06

01.01.2021 04:52AM

Finally Mall is expanding a whole lot from the description. A great improvement indeed.

Mall

12.19.2020 02:16PM

Perhaps not all as I discuss what you can call exceptions to the rule in the extended breakdown.

seldiora

12.19.2020 03:20AM

-->

@Mall

so you're saying we're all bound to money? An interesting idea.

Sum1hugme

12.18.2020 11:35PM

Very tempting, too bad my hands are full

ILikePie5

02.24.2021 04:24AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Conduct to Pro because Con forfeited multiple rounds. S/G tied because grammar did not divert from arguments. Sources tied because both sides used reasonable sources to support their arguments. Arguments to Pro because Con never refuted them due to the forfeit and as a result Pro extended them.

RationalMadman

02.23.2021 06:04AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Majority forfeits by Con.

fauxlaw

02.23.2021 05:28AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

This was, unfortunately, a flawed debate by Con by full forfeiture after the 2nd round. Had Con continued the argument rounds my estimation was that Con would have taken the argument points for a more sound argument of potential attainment of financial freedom in that, although a financially free individual still has financial obligations, even if only monthly utilities, mortgage, etc, the available finances on hand are more than capable of covering those revolving debts. Financial freedom is not freedom from debt, Con successfully argued, but freedom to cover them with funds left over. Pro tried constantly to equate slavery or penal system imprisonment as comparable to lack of financial freedom, but in Pro's model, no one is truly outside the slavery/imprisonment model when, clearly there are people who are not so "enslaved." So, by demand of forfeiture, the best Con can achieve is a tie in argument.

I'll pass on Sourcing as a true vote, although as a voter, I have no choice to pass. A tie is the best that can be achieved since Pro had no sourcing whatsoever, but wins the debate by default of forfeiture by Con.

Also by forfeiture, however, Pro wins both Legibility and Conduct.

gugigor

02.21.2021 01:26PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

One of mall’s best debates. He shows people are shackled to money one way or another (Though more clarification in the description would certainly help). The opponent forfeited half the rounds do conduct to mall.