Instigator / Pro
Intelligence_06's avatar
7
Intelligence_06
1731
rating
167
debates
73.05%
won
Topic
#2764

The Matrix: On balance, taking the blue pill, as opposed to the red pill, is more beneficial for Neo(Read Description)

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
0
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

Intelligence_06
Tags
Movies
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
12,500
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
gugigor's avatar
2
gugigor
1502
rating
41
debates
35.37%
won
Description

So essentially the story goes like this: It is the future and robots have taken over the world and we humans are enslaved. We lie all day in liquid nitrogen tanks, plugged as a machine program makes you live in the dream world that will make you think it is real, so they can use us as storage for electricity and make sure that almost none of us realize what is going on and rage against the machines. It is just Mandatory VR sessions for life.

Humans are reproduced to be for storage. When one is "born", he/she/they will be plugged so they will start to exist in the dream world. Human growth and the speed of flowing time are consistent in both realms. When one dies in any realm, he/she/they translates to electrical energy and becomes replaced by another baby, who continues the cycle.

Neo is one such person and everything in his life seems normal. Neo is hired as an IT engineer and is also a computer hacker. Someone tells him that the world is virtual and all that machine extravaganza. It is his choice to take the blue or red pill.

The Red pill is a signal that you want to wake up and escape this dream world, and they put a silvery conductive liquid onto you so you could be disrupted and wake up in the machine world where there are robot spiders everywhere.

The Blue pill is a signal that you want to continue living in the dream world instead of waking up in the "real" world. Then they will remove your memory about the "real world" talk and you continue your life, your everyday struggle.

My stance is that taking the Blue pill is more beneficial to Neo as a person, instead of the Red pill. The BoP is shared.

Note that Blue Pill or Blue-pill refers to the pill itself, and bluepill, without a hyphen or space, refers to people that have taken the blue pill and are unaware that they live in a virtual world, Vice versa(Redpill refers to a person who took the red pill and thus cheated the system and has woke up in the real world aware that they have been living in a virtual world). Misusing the terms so they cause considerable misunderstanding would be an S&G loss.

Everything here is hypothetical but nevertheless follows the story and logic of the saga. Saying that taking the red pill is the status quo for Neo is simply an argument fallible enough that it isn't counted towards the end.

Round 1
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#1
Syllogism

  1. A red pill directs you to the "real" world while the blue pill lets you stay in this world, thinking it is as real as the "real" world
  2. The dream world has its benefits
  3. Thus, the Blue pill is to be chosen.

Premise 1 is defined as akin to a truism in the description, as it is what is to be offered to enter this debate.

The benefits of the dream world

Equally as real

Science tells us that what we think is real may not be real[1], as what we think is real is only what our brain tells us. Suppose you are "sitting in a chair", it is because your buttocks and thighs have responses, which are wired to your brain, and you see several planks of carved wood or something like that indicating it is a chair, not a PlayStation 5, nor a dump truck, nor nothing at all. It could all be a simulation, but yet you do not notice because the world you are in right now is as real as it could be.

Neo has never questioned the reality of the "dream world" until Morpheus and Agent Smith tracked him[2]. Without intervention, his life is basically an engineer when the sun is up and a computer hacker when the sun goes to bed. Simple, and all the experiences Neo would have had experienced could simply be brushed off as an inceptional dream(pun intended).

That being said, if Neo is already adjusted to his life in the dream world and found nothing that he could adjust to in the "real" metropolitan mess, and yet both feels as real as each other should one not understand, why to find the "real life"? Especially since you have to endure much more pain?

The machines treat us good

According to Utilitarian methods, taking the red pill is simply not as good as taking the blue pill. 

Let's identify the goal of the robots: Using humans as a power source. They are not trying to have a genocide over us nor are they trying to torture us. We get born and have a mind, and get plugged to a machine which simulates all kinds of a regular human life 200 years ago or even further back. Keep in mind: There are Docbots ensuring that we are peacefully sleeping, and those robots are not trying to torture nor kill us[3]. They ensure that we enjoy what is good for the maximum possible. Making war with humans is a big no-no to the robots as it will just make the powering unit a bit less effective while losing an amount of energy.

The robots literally take care of us and not let us die easily. There is no need to free humans from the matrix as in the dream world, you would possibly achieve whatever you would like to achieve. Unless you are extremely edgy, you would find 0 fun in the real world for the rest of your life.

Unlike Inception, when you die in the dream world, you die in the real world too. For most people, taking the red pill means suffering for the rest of your life, and taking the blue pill means you still have a chance of enjoying the rest of your life. So if you have your entire life living in the dream world, you would still live a complete life as the robots usually won't accidentally kill anyone in the matrix.

Utilitarianly, let us weigh the benefits and losses of the blue and red pills.

The Red pill makes us go to the real world that is as real as the world before is, yet we endure an exponential degree of pain compared to the one before. If we have any degree of success, we would moan and yawn because they perished we have nothing to live for other than cold-hearted clumps of steel that can move on their own. The goods? We arrive to a world as real but they call it "real". The bads? We endure all kinds of punishment and we would live our life even less meaningfully than we did before.

The blue pill keeps all that we have and keeps us in a world that feels 100% real to us. This choice is the same as the red pill solution, except in the blue pill solution, we endure little to no pain. Utilitarian-wise, the Blue pill trumps the red pill. It looked as if humans were being "saved", but from the experiences, the humans are actually being tortured by the machines once they all wake up[3], because some jerk thought it would be more beneficial to "save" them instead of actually keeping themselves the angelic illusion of reality.

TL;DR: Taking the red pill as a normal person, and you would suffer. Taking the red pill as THE ONE, and you would make an entire tower of people suffer instead of enjoying their lives that they have. 

In fact, Agent Smith is like an enderman[5]: You don't trigger him unless you try to break the it. Breaking the matrix, logically, would mean suffering, and since you have got an army of Smiths coming to get you, breaking the matrix as THE ONE also makes the lives inside the matrix suffer as Smiths would just take them and make himself a virus program.

Neo is THE ONE[6]. If Neo takes a red pill, he would go into a world no more real, but enduring more torture, and since that is how powerful he is, THE ONE, he will trigger Smith and make lives inside the matrix endure pain too. Taking the blue pill and everyone stops going after him, and he will forget that he is in a dream world[7], and he will not save towers of people who aren't even supposed to be saved in the first place, and he will not break machines that are just minding their business and making a heaven for humans, and he will not trigger Smith which will make the life in the matrix worse. If Neo takes the Blue pill, both of the realms would be better than if he takes the red pill.

The best case scenario is if Neo keeps his powers to himself and not "save" anyone else. Then his powers will be wasted and his life will be wasted, and there will still be loss compared to if he takes the blue pill.

I rest my case, Con, it is your turn.

gugigor's avatar
gugigor
Con
#2
Pro notes that the world feels just as real and that the people are treated relatively fine: they live their regular life in our known world. So where is the problem? Ironically, the problem lies with the resistance. We have the people who want to be free and somehow accidentally learned that the world was not as it seemed. The question is then: should one man who can change the world, join a rebellion that can free mankind from their unknown slavery?

Pro says that freeing the people would bring a lot of pain. But why? And how? When released, Neo only looked extremely confused, and the only momentary seconds of shouting before he begins his journey. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCZBY7a8kqE&ab_channel=TheMatrixFan314TheMatrixFan314

The more people join the resistance, the more successful they'll be. But why is living in the science fiction future better than the modern day presented in the film? The world seems relatively boring there. The Matrix's world is stuck in 1999 (https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/2199#:~:text=2199%20is%20the%20year%20assumed,set%20in%20the%20year%201999.) while the real world is in 2199. No doubt that the scientific advancements are incredible, especially with regards to health and transportation, but the machines prevent us from experiencing such advancements. They want to keep us in the olden days so that we're bored and we never doubt the Matrix's illusion. Their purpose is to keep us stagnated and prevent human progress, especially with overthrowing the aliens. 

So the real question is, is it worth it to live in a life full of boredom and lack of advancement, or live in the future world, battling against the aliens, and freeing all of humanity? When phrased this way, the obvious choice is the red pill. Though it is difficult for him to achieve victory, he manages to overcome the obstacles in the way. When they are freed, they may choose their own path. Given the advancement of technology, people may choose to continue living their simulation, with informed consent guiding their blue pill decision, or they may choose the red pill, joining the people in the future where science is crazy advanced and we can explore the stars without being enslaved. The Red Pill offers all the benefits of the Blue Pill experience. The only difference is that Neo had to sacrifice his time and energy to train himself and plan together with the others' help to destroy the enemies' Matrix. Pro needs to tell me precisely what we suffer, and why it is so bad. Because we could always construct a more helpful Matrix that doesn't drain you of your life and have your body be in muscle atrophy.
Round 2
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#3
Dropped Points
  • Triggered Agent Smith
  • Machines treated us well
  • Neo, and other people, are adjusted to the dream world behaviorally more than the "real world"
Rebuttal 1: Which world is the fun one, and which is the boring one?

As I have established, ironically, as we become "free", we are enslaved. When we are "enslaved", we are free.

I have presented many pieces of evidence showing that the machines built us a paradise in which we can do anything to succeed there, that it almost felt like it wasn't anything remotely related to slavery. From a redpill's perspective, the machines made us a heaven to escape this harsh dystopia. Moreover, the machines didn't even attempt to strike when our minds in the dream world had guard put down: They have specifically built robots to ensure that we enjoy this paradise as much as we possibly could, they made us appear in the dream world when we are born and they made us die in the real world when we die in the dream world. The robots made us joyful and peaceful for their own benefits, but to think for ourselves and our lives alone, at least our lives are better than if they are in a heartless, bladed dystopia. Why would you want to be in a world in which you are most definitely being haunted by hostile machines all over, suffering for the sole reason that it is as real as the one before?

TL;DR: The robots built us a paradise and to wake up from it is to suffer.

Neo is a superhero, and his powers can still exist in the Matrix. Neo can use his powers to solve all kinds of issues in the world where the value of humans matters. Instead, he is "saving" people in the "real" world that would only feel much pain and lose their values.

Of all the powers Neo have, his powers are relatively selfish[1]. He cannot build facilities in absurd speeds. This means even if he woke up and save all kinds of tons of people, those people will basically have nowhere to live because there are machines rampaging around, and even if he destroys all the machines, the world would still be a dystopia as in the world of and after 2199, where the humans once lived is called "Desert of the real", and the only human inhabited place is Zion, which cannot store billions of people.

The root of heavy industrialism and artificial intelligence have been so deep in the real world that Zion is possibly one of the only places that is possible for humans to thrive without the machines taking over immediately[2]. We can't expect for billions of pod-humans to live in such a jagged world. For the most part, waking up in the real world is suffering.

The machines have a monopoly of electrical supplies and human food can only be found majorly in Zion. If we just free much more people, then we would put on a burden on Zion's economical structure[3]. Don't you know what is going on in India, China and Bangladesh? Yeah that.

TL;DR: Once we wake up from the real world, we are pretty much homeless and hopeless, and we would probably die.

In conclusion, We have established that the dream world is the world where humans still have value and we are all possible to be happy, and it is near impossible for one to build the "real" world to this degree, even with Neo and Zion operatives. The real world, when Neo is given the task, was still a dystopia and it cannot burden masses of humanity, and even Neo would possibly have trouble living there, having to worry about bladed robots attacking his bed EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Most of humanity won't survive in the real world unless construction is extremely rushed and machines are completely unified with humans, then there may be a chance. Right now, the dream world is something the machines built, to let us experience the highs and lows of the life we are supposed to have, instead of experiencing the lows and lows of the life haunted by the machines themselves.

This is adding that if everyone knew there is a real world outside the dream world they regard as real, the dream world, the only realm we yet know to have valued humanity, the productivity of the dream world slows, and eventually it will turn into a dystopia too.

More than that, Smith won't become a virus and the matrix dream world will be more peaceful if Neo stays inside.

2: The resistance

Is the resistance worth it? The answer is no. All the resistance is doing is leading humans into suffering into a world just as real but 1000x less fun. Logically, the resistance are big jerks.

Con says that being free from the matrix only constitutes little pain, however the fact humans can never integrate into this world, and that humans have a HUGE difficulty into even finding his own value in this world would mean that the dream world, which the both can easily be done by any complete human being, is better, and freeing the humans into the real world isn't even needed.

I repeat that in the futuristic dystopia of the real, Humans find a hard time even finding value on its own, and it is INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to live inside the real world beause there is only 1 human settlement. Repeating myself, as I have written over 10000 words disproving Con's main points. The resistance isn't even doing anything useful because it is just accelerating human suffering, as that human lives would been better off being in the dream world. I rest my case and it is Con's turn.

[3]ibid

gugigor's avatar
gugigor
Con
#4
Pro keeps saying the matrix is a paradise but this is absolutely ridiculous. We are bound by physical rules and do not have informed consent. Imagine it was even worse and we were literally slaves in the simulation. Obviously this would be terrible and unacceptable. On the surface the 1999 simulation seems reasonable, but when Ne took red pill he became Kung fu master, flying superhero, and able to dodge bullets. Imagine all the people being bullied when they were really Kung  fu masters. Imagine all the gun violence happening in real life, while in reality you could’ve dodged the bullets. When we see the comparison, it’s clear that the machines are forcing us to die unnecessary deaths. Pro says agent smith intervenes. How bad is this? Is it horrible as the thousands of bullied and depressed children? How about those killed by guns everyday? Even though Smith is a computer virus, Neo was able to perform excellently against him. Pro says that the food supply is severely limited, but clearly the machines have enough nutrients to supply entire mankind, so we wouldn’t necessarily run out of food. Pro claims regular world 1999 is a paradise, but completely drops my point that the 2199 virtual reality is far superior with ability to have superpowers in the simulation. Red pill still defeats blue pill here.
Round 3
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#5
Dropped Points

  • Triggered Agent Smith
  • Machines treated us well
  • Neo, and other people, are adjusted to the dream world behaviorally more than the "real world"
  • People would suffer in the real world

Pro keeps saying the matrix is a paradise but this is absolutely ridiculous. We are bound by physical rules and do not have informed consent. Imagine it was even worse and we were literally slaves in the simulation.
I have use lengthy paragraphs in R1 and perhaps try to read them. The machines have treated us well and our experiences are as perfect as to let billions of people not notice that they are dreaming in a machine.

Con keeps saying the real world is better but this is absolutely ridiculous. We are literally being enslaved by machines in the real world and do not have informed consent. Imagine it was even worse and we are literally slaves in the real world.

Yes, and you have dropped that too. We are not slaves, we are free: when in the matrix, because we can decide our own fate there as long as we can do so. In the real world, no matter how powerful humans are, humans are not to overcome the machines and the agents---Programs that are to keep the matrix stable and not broken.

On the surface the 1999 simulation seems reasonable, but when Ne took red pill he became Kung fu master, flying superhero, and able to dodge bullets. Imagine all the people being bullied when they were really Kung  fu masters. Imagine all the gun violence happening in real life, while in reality you could’ve dodged the bullets.
Neo becomes a superhero and the matrix ensures that there is only one superhero per generation[1].

In other words, nobody would find any fun if Neo "frees" the humans(not to mention the real world is full of harsh machines) due to that the source(pun not intended) states that bluepills, when reaching a certain age, would literally die after exiting the matrix[2].

Let's say that Neo isn't a hot-headed dumbass and decided to keep the world for himself, then basically his powers will be of waste because attacking the machines that has given a believable good life will be enraged and cause unnecessary deaths(more than that, according to the nature of Smith, he will cause destruction INSIDE the matrix).

In short, Either Neo use his powers outside the matrix and make both realms hell, or Neo doesn't use his powers and that is no fun at all. Neo could actually live a lifestyle he wanted and fulfill his dreams in the dream world instead of having a conflict with robots that are actually trying to keep us alive and let us at least think we live in a vivid paradise instead of a harsh machine world.

The personalities of Neo and the architect would ensure that Neo does not go into the Source and "save" the world[3](And if we are arguing about the personality of Neo and whether he should go inside the door, that is another story). What does that mean? Even if he got out, there is little chance that he is able to save the world.

How bad is this? Is it horrible as the thousands of bullied and depressed children? How about those killed by guns everyday?
Considering Smith clogged the streets of a main city[4], I don't know how bad it is. Maybe he is capable of destroying the world?

Even though Smith is a computer virus, Neo was able to perform excellently against him.
What is better? To have Smith never attacking the world whatsoever; or to kill him after he had made the dream world, the supposed paradise, hellish? If you think the former is better, then choose Blue Pill.

Pro says that the food supply is severely limited, but clearly the machines have enough nutrients to supply entire mankind, so we wouldn’t necessarily run out of food.
But we can only sustain nutrients when we are INSIDE THE POD. Have fun eating electricity or liquid nitrogen for the rest of your life.

As powerful Neo is, Neo would still need to eat food, and borderline, the lack of human food would at least make him depressed and his mental health worsen, making that he will be at least less happy than when he is inside the matrix where Mcdonalds probably still exists.

Pro claims regular world 1999 is a paradise, but completely drops my point that the 2199 virtual reality is far superior with ability to have superpowers in the simulation.
If you got superpowers in the real world, you got superpowers inside the matrix[5]. Now let's conclude by weighing how good the 1999 dream world is.
  • Equally as real(if you take the blue pill)
  • Better chance to be happy in life and less chance to die right after you get out of the matrix
  • No bug robots to attack you when you aren't careful
  • No virus-humans that will take your life
  • Can STILL have superpowers and use them to better extents(Considering you aren't just pulling people out for unnecessary deaths)
  • Have machines taking care of us 24/7
  • Is not hostile to humans
The 1999 world is basically a paradise, and staying here is better. My opponent dropped a lot of points. I rest my case and it is Con's turn.

gugigor's avatar
gugigor
Con
#6
Pro has also dropped my points, and I extend them.

To repeat: Pro has not proved that The Matrix is a paradise. He claims it makes us maximally satisfactory, while this is the opposite.

The people are living in a mundane, boring world with no exciting change. When Neo went against the law, Agent Smith still intervened, threatening him with a torture scene. So you are still kept in line and encouraged to do nothing that would remotely resemble a rebellion. In contrast, if everyone took the Red Pill, they would overwhelm the alien forces, allowing them to make the true decision. Knowing the real world existing, they may now choose to continue flying and kung fu battles in the simulation. That is the true paradise. They may also choose to be in a more realistic situation, yet still in the future, with vastly improved medicine and transportation methods. After humanity combines together to defeat the aliens, they will unite as one, stopping all forms of racism and inequality that may exist in the Matrix. (Keep in mind everyone has the 1999's mindset, which is still in the works and backwards relative to the 2199 standards. 

Pro has not proved how much people actually suffer if they choose Red Pill. Neo had difficulties but it was definitely than being bullied while secretly knowing kung fu, or being shot unfairly while being able to dodge bullets. The unnecessary deaths far outweigh Neo's sacrifices.
Round 4
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#7
Everything Con has made in the previous round is already refuted by one, if not several of my previous argument. I will use previous arguments and sources to disprove everything Pro has.

But first, let's count the unsupported points Pro has.
  • The future dystopia is better than the matrix paradise
  • Neo's abilities can be equated to the average human being
  • The matrix is mundane
  • The future world has better technology for the humans to use
The only two sources Pro has are:
  • One video to show how "little" pain the literal strongest human being would experience once being unplugged, even though I have proof that normal human beings would suffer an extreme trauma[a] as well as that Neo IS the strongest human being[b]
  • Another shows when the "real" world take place, which adds nothing since even if the matrix takes place in the distant past but has advanced technology, it is still the same scenario

Rebuttals 

The people are living in a mundane, boring world with no exciting change.
The blue pill keeps all that we have and keeps us in a world that feels 100% real to us. This choice is the same as the red pill solution, except in the blue pill solution, we endure little to no pain. Utilitarian-wise, the Blue pill trumps the red pill. It looked as if humans were being "saved", but from the experiences, the humans are actually being tortured by the machines once they all wake up[1], because some jerk thought it would be more beneficial to "save" them instead of actually keeping themselves the angelic illusion of reality.(r1)

I have presented many pieces of evidence showing that the machines built us a paradise in which we can do anything to succeed there, that it almost felt like it wasn't anything remotely related to slavery. From a redpill's perspective, the machines made us a heaven to escape this harsh dystopia. Moreover, the machines didn't even attempt to strike when our minds in the dream world had guard put down: They have specifically built robots to ensure that we enjoy this paradise as much as we possibly could, they made us appear in the dream world when we are born and they made us die in the real world when we die in the dream world. The robots made us joyful and peaceful for their own benefits, but to think for ourselves and our lives alone, at least our lives are better than if they are in a heartless, bladed dystopia. Why would you want to be in a world in which you are most definitely being haunted by hostile machines all over, suffering for the sole reason that it is as real as the one before?(r2)

Con keeps saying the real world is better but this is absolutely ridiculous. We are literally being enslaved by machines in the real world and do not have informed consent. Imagine it was even worse and we are literally slaves in the real world.(r3)

When Neo went against the law, Agent Smith still intervened, threatening him with a torture scene. So you are still kept in line and encouraged to do nothing that would remotely resemble a rebellion.
Taking the blue pill and everyone stops going after him, and he will forget that he is in a dream world[2].(r1)

In contrast, if everyone took the Red Pill, they would overwhelm the alien forces, allowing them to make the true decision. Knowing the real world existing, they may now choose to continue flying and kung fu battles in the simulation. That is the true paradise.
Neo becomes a superhero and the matrix ensures that there is only one superhero per generation[3].(r3)

In other words, nobody would find any fun if Neo "frees" the humans(not to mention the real world is full of harsh machines) due to that the source(pun not intended) states that bluepills, when reaching a certain age, would literally die after exiting the matrix[4].(r3)

(the two sentences after isn't even supported to any extent, and I have no idea how he got those ideas)

Pro has not proved how much people actually suffer if they choose Red Pill. Neo had difficulties but it was definitely than being bullied while secretly knowing kung fu, or being shot unfairly while being able to dodge bullets. The unnecessary deaths far outweigh Neo's sacrifices.
In other words, nobody would find any fun if Neo "frees" the humans(not to mention the real world is full of harsh machines) due to that the source(pun not intended) states that bluepills, when reaching a certain age, would literally die after exiting the matrix[4].(r3)

---end---

Essentially everything Con has made has been already refuted, and I conclude with all the points still stand like stonehenge.
  • The future is a dystopia and being controlled by machines is no fun
  • The machines ensure us that we have a good life inside a matrix, and that is good
  • The matrix is as real as the "real" world if you take the blue pill
  • Red pill = real world = more pain, and that is bad within the utilitarian model
  • Exiting the matrix triggers Smith, and that is bad
  • Neo is more used to the dream world
  • Either Neo "saves" people and let the majority of them die of trauma and pain, or he doesn't use it meaningfully which is no fun
  • Staying inside the dream world is better
  • Taking the blue pill is better
  • Vote Pro!
On a short note, if Pro makes any other new points after this, then conduct will be taken from him.


I rest my case.
gugigor's avatar
gugigor
Con
#8
Pro insists that somehow the single moment of trauma overwhelms the possibility of bullied while being a master of Kung fu or shot to death while being able to dodge bullets. It’s heavily implied that anyone can be a superhero. Every other resistance member was able to do it. As such, red pill is just a temporary sacrifice to let people truly make the decision between red and blue. Otherwise humanity makes nearly no progress and is doomed to become robot food. Vote con.