"Clock Boy" Ahmed Mohamed was not discriminated against.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 3 votes and with 13 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Number of rounds
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
On September 14, 2015, Ahmed Mohamed brought a device to his public school, MacArthur High School in Irving, Texas. Ahmed claims that the device is a "clock" which he "built" because he considers himself to be an "inventor" outside of school. Ahmed was removed from school and briefly arrested by the police before being released back into his parents custody. He did not face any official charges for a specified crime, although the police and his teachers contend that his "clock" looked like a bomb.
Ahmed became an instant media sensation, going on a whirlwind tour of Hollywood and Washington D.C., with visits to the White House and appearances on numerous talk shows. Ahmed and the Mohamed family were represented by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and several lawyers, who alleged that Ahmed had been "discriminated against" by the police and the school. The overwhelming majority of the media and political figures supported the Mohamed family, implying that "Islamophobia" was to blame for the event. Many people also inferred a scientific issue was involved in the debate, and that Ahmed (who often appears wearing a 'NASA' t-shirt) should have been encouraged for bringing his device to school, and that his critics are also opponents of science itself. Even government agencies like NASA supported the viewpoint that Ahmed was just a smart little kid who was interested in science;
The Mohamed family subsequently brought several lawsuits in regards to this matter. All lawsuits were dismissed and the Mohamed family was forced to pay all associated costs. In spite of this, Wikipedia still describes criticism of Ahmed as "conspiracy theories" on their page dedicated to the incident;
As 'Pro' for this debate, I allege that Ahmed Mohamed was not a victim of "discrimination" or "Islamophobia" in this incident, and that reports of the in incident were wildly exaggerated by the media before all the facts were known. I also deny the media perspectives that "Islamophobia" was to blame or that Ahmed deserves to be defended on the grounds of scientific advancement.
I expect that 'Con' will argue in favor of Ahmed Mohamed's case, including the claims of "Islamophobia" and a connection to science.
I'm not going to attempt to tack on any crazy rules to this debate. I would prefer that we not waste a lot of time quibbling over semantics or citing dictionary definitions. Otherwise, lets get straight to it; Three rounds and let the observers vote for the winner.
So I turned to eBay, searching for vintage alarm clocks. It only took a minute to locate Ahmed’s clock. See this eBay listing, up at the time of this writing. Amhed’s clock was invented, and built, by Micronta, a Radio Shack subsidiary. Catalog number 63 765.
By now he could have invented something new — not just a clock that only took him a few minutes to put together from parts in his family’s garage, which was full of ’90s-era electronics from when his uncle ran a chain called Beeper Warehouse.
In a series of posts in Twitter, Richard Dawkins suggested that Mohamed and his family might have staged a hoax. Dawkins noted that the clock components were not a new invention...
Based upon previous reports, he showed his supposed invention to an engineering teacher in the morning. Who subsequently warned him that the device looked suspicious and not to show it to anybody else. Apparently rather than heed his warning, according to reports, he then showed his invention to teachers in the next six classes who voiced similar concerns to him. In the sixth period he apparently, without the English teachers knowledge plugged the device into the wall with the intent to set off the timer on the device.
The Dallas Morning News described Mohamed as having “racked up weeks of suspension” and pranking the “classroom projector.”Kubiak admits a fondness for Mohamed yet dubbed him a “weird little kid” who could either wind up the CEO of a company or “head of a gang.”
The sister of the boy who brought a suspected hoax-bomb to his Texas high school said she was suspended from a school in a prior bomb scare. Her suspension occurred in 2009 while she was attending middle school in the same district.
Now a college student, Jamali acknowledged she did not know first-hand what occurred at MacArthur with Ahmed, then underscored, “…Mac is a place where there is no or very little prejudice.”
Muslim leaders in Texas, meanwhile, doubted his claims to religious and scholarly leadership. “This so-called leader, we have never heard of this person,” Imam Zia ul Haque Sheikh, head of the Islamic Center of Irving, told the Seattle Times. “I believe the whole thing is made up.”
In his eyes, the more Ahmed is seen, the better. It’s good for the family, he says. Twice in his life he has run for president of Sudan. He plans to run again in 2020. The more people who know him, the better his chances.
Troubling statements in this Facebook post further the ideology of 9/11 conspiracy theories. The translation suggests that the 9/11 terror attacks were bogus, an inside-job, reading: “That the war against terror is nothing more than an illusion made in America—as al-Qa`ida was made in America, as well as what is happening now in the Arab East at the hands of the West.” The post also alleges that the United States created 9/11 to manufacture the “war on terror.”
Last week, Mohamed removed the National Reform page, perhaps in response to Western media sifting through the content.
We talked about science, but while I’m talking to him on the phone, as I ask him a question, ‘Tell me what happened,’ because I’m curious, right? His sister, over his shoulder, you could hear, listening to the question, giving him the answer.Source.
He captured Ahmed’s metered responses with “eyes drifting off camera” that appeared to look offside “for approval” from someone before answering questions.Source.
On March 13, 2018 a federal lawsuit filed by Ahmed Mohamed's father against the Irving Independent School District, the city of Irving, and several specific individuals, was dismissed with prejudice with the court ordering Mohamed's family to bear all the costs of the lawsuit.
an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
Please start reading everything twice if it is going through your head. A lot of people retain 50% of material one one reading and 80% after 2 readings.
As 'Pro' for this debate, I allege that Ahmed Mohamed was not a victim of "discrimination" or "Islamophobia" in this incident, and that reports of the in incident were wildly exaggerated by the media before all the facts were known. I also deny the media perspectives that "Islamophobia" was to blame or that Ahmed deserves to be defended on the grounds of scientific advancement.I expect that 'Con' will argue in favor of Ahmed Mohamed's case, including the claims of "Islamophobia" and a connection to science.
my opponent has already acknowledged ahmed mohomad was treated differently, most kids don't have the cops called on them while at school.
The site was down yesterday... I'd like him to agree that the debate go unvoted on.
I have won anyway...
...he is trying to say Ahmed was not discriminated against because the school had good reasons to discriminatensure [???] against him.
Con must argue;1. That Ahmed was the victim of "Islamophobia" resulting in him being discriminated against unfairly.2. That Ahmed was accurately represented in the media and deserving of the positive benefits of that representation.3. That Ahmed was deserving of being defended on the "scientific" merits of his "invention" of the clock.If Con plans to toss all of that out the window and argue only for a generic "discrimination" case, then he will have effectively ignored the vast majority of the topics which were actually intended to be debated and thus will surely lose this debate.
- Ahmed lied and committed plagiarism by claiming to have "invented" a clock which was actually left over from his Uncle's failed business.
- Ahmed had a long history of bad behavior and prior pranks at school.
- Ahmed's sister had also been involved in a similar incident at a school in the same district.
- The valedictorian of Ahmed's school was also a Muslim and denied that there was any bias against Muslim's present in the school.
- The media ignored Ahmed's lies and prior bad behavior, promoting him as a champion of STEM education by giving him multiple talk-show appearances, a photo-op with President Obama and a large quantity of free stuff.
- Ahmed's own father openly admitted that the family had both political and financial motives for pursuing a claim of "Islamophobia" in Ahmed's case.
- Although Ahmed's family filed multiple lawsuits against multiple parties alleging that Ahmed had been "discriminated" against in some way, every single one of those lawsuits resulted in an embarrassing defeat for Ahmed, often requiring the Muhammad family to bear all the legal costs associated with the lawsuit.
It's an interesting idea. It might punish people who forum post a lot who mean no harm, though.
Thanks for the vote!
I'm not sure if I've seen the debate you mention in the RFD. I'll have to look it up again to see if that was one I read.
Second loss not first ** for my RFD
I'm starting to consider a mathematical equation to determine who should be blocked. X = (number of forum posts). Y = (number of debates participated in multiplied by 100). If X is greater than Y, I add you to my block list. Math is a fair way to make decisions, right?
Yeah I just wanted to understand because i thought you were mad or something lol I guess not.
I've unblocked you!
It was recently explained to me that blocking people is a form of "punishment" on this site... apparently...?
And after giving it some consideration, I feel I need to reserve my "punishments" for those who are truly deserving. And nothing you have ever done in your life is anywhere nearly as bad as the guy I just recently "punished" by adding him to my block list.
So as a matter of principle, I feel I must unblock you. Congrats.
Thanks for the feedback!
Armoredcat, I'm trying to answer your question, but I'm also trying not to be too blunt/direct about it, because (unlike another user who is neither you or I) I make my best effort to follow the code of conduct and I want the moderators (who have told me that they intend to deal with this shortly) to understand that I'm not the instigator of the situation, nor am I trying to retaliate against anyone.
The reason I'm telling you about this other user is because you have already seen his activity on this page, and I want you to understand that I block people when I feel it is in my own best interest to minimize my contact with them. I cannot elaborate further than that, at this time.
If you don't feel that you did anything wrong, then it is entirely possible that you didn't. I would suggest just leaving it at that.
"Armoredcat, I didn't say you insulted me. But just a quick look at some of the other comments here would easily reveal the person that I am talking about."
Ok idk why you're telling me this then.
"Regardless, if someone blocks you, the logical conclusion is because they don't want to talk to you. So why chase after that person and follow them around demanding answers? If someone has you blocked, leave them be. It isn't like it harms you at all."
I want to know what I did wrong is all. But you keep dodging the question.
No biggie. I think this debate kinda got derailed by all the drama in the comments anyway.
Armoredcat, I didn't say you insulted me. But just a quick look at some of the other comments here would easily reveal the person that I am talking about.
Regardless, if someone blocks you, the logical conclusion is because they don't want to talk to you. So why chase after that person and follow them around demanding answers? If someone has you blocked, leave them be. It isn't like it harms you at all.
Thought I had more time. Sorry about that
"Armoredcat, ask yourself this; How did you even know someone blocked you, unless you tried to send them a message that failed to go through?"
Yeah, I did. Why else would I ask? You most certainly blocked me, and you're still dodging me as to why.
"So obviously, you must have done a little more than what you say..."
WHEN THOUGH? WHEN? You blocked me well before your response here.
"and when you follow someone around demanding to know why they blocked you (or insulting them for blocking you) that really should be an explanation in itself for why they blocked you."
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I genuinely want to know why you blocked me though, because if I'm doing something wrong you could just let me know. That's why. I literally had no animosity towards you before I found out you blocked me. I was actually going to message you because I wanted to see your Tumblr blog that you talk about in your profile. And also, I never insulted you.
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm glad you spotted the Dawkins citation in particular. One criticism I've received on this argument in the past is that a lot of the sources are "conservative" in nature, but I actually do strive to show that people on many sides of the political spectrum had legitimate criticism of the way Ahmed's case was handled. It isn't a one sided issue.
Armoredcat, ask yourself this; How did you even know someone blocked you, unless you tried to send them a message that failed to go through? So obviously, you must have done a little more than what you say... and when you follow someone around demanding to know why they blocked you (or insulting them for blocking you) that really should be an explanation in itself for why they blocked you.
Yeah, he is part of the group of dishonest tumors on this site who seek to cheapen the voting by posting contrarian votes, i.e. it's way obvious who actually won, but they want to see what ridiculous votes they can get by the moderation, and when they do this, they have to block you or their dashboard will be constantly flooded with dissension from you and all of the other debaters they've wronged.
They hit and run because they're cowards and they know they're wrong.
Raltar's just really obvious about it all; he has zero integrity.
I've literally objected to one vote on his debate, which the mods agreed was insufficient. I can't believe that he would be so mad that I disagreed with a vote he made that he would permanently block me. Like, seriously. This is a professional debate site.
I hope it's not because of my political leanings, but...
lol hes just not going to explain at all ok
And as I told Con in our other debate, I treat things that happen in a debate as things which were said with the explicit goal of winning. I don't plan to hold any grudges for anything said during a debate. But if Con feels like I was being a jerk and wants to bitch me out for it, he is more than welcome to contact me via a PM and I'll likely offer an apology. I would just prefer to avoid further discussion in the comments, due to the aforementioned "haunting" I'm currently dealing with...
Not sure what time zones everyone else is in, but for me the period when the site was down was around 9pm at night, and the deadline for Con to post his argument was at approximately 9am the next morning. There there was at least a 12 hour break in between when the site was down and when he needed to post.
Plus, he didn't actually miss the deadline. He responded in time and got his post up.
And you are right, being tired, busy or otherwise distracted in real life are valid excuses. But that brings us back to the fact that he was actually posting on other parts of this site, not busy elsewhere.
If he had contacted me and politely said, "Hey, I'm out of time and I don't think I can post a good argument, can you cut me some slack?" I would have been open to that for sure.
But he insisted that he won... sooo... eh? *shrug*
You don't know how busy those three days were for him irl or how tired he was etc, it actually was lucky for me as I often intentionally leave debates to the last hour for an adrenaline rush (it actually increases your iq when you have it as long as you haven't had one in the past 12 hours or so as it will fizzle your brain out if you have too many).
If the cut-out had happened in that period for me, even if a few hours were left and I'd just gone 'meh I'll do this in the last 2 hours' I'd be exactly like him even if I then had time to reply with like 20 mins left to post. This is how it looks to me.
Agreed. But still, 2 or 3 hours shouldn't have been a prolonged enough time to justify not responding when the argument period was 72 hours long.
The site was actually down for like 2-3 hours.
The only reason it was brought up was because he claimed that he was unable to respond because the site was down.
So my question became; If the site was down, how was he still able to post on other parts of the site?
There was no other reason to bring it up aside from that.
However, as you can see, issues from other parts of this site "haunt" me on a regular basis.
Oh my bad.
Commenting on the debate, not the comments section.
The person asked why he blocked him and the answer was that he's a coward...that's it.
Bringing up that your opponent has participated in other areas of the website seems pretty unnecessary and kind of weird. He basically forfeited two rounds, stalking him around the site is a bit unusual and unnecessary.
Raltar is one of the members of this site who is hellbent on being dishonest with his approach to debating in, interacting during, and voting on debates, to the extent he has to use a very cowardly maneuver called a "hit and run."
Cowards who use "hit and run" will lie about something to hurt your standing or argument and, when encountered about their dishonesty, block your interaction with them so they can digitally run away because they're not adult or brave enough to defend their obvious lies...by the way Raltar runs funny when he's running from defending an obvious lie.
That's why he blocked you.
yes but can you please explain why you blocked me
Bias in three different courts? Alright, man, if that is what you want to run with... yeah, I guess there is an immeasurably small possibility that an entire school district, an entire police department and the federal court system (including judges appointed by democrats) are all so heavily biased against Muslims, yet so simaltaniously short sighted, that they engaged in a massive conspiracy to get one Muslim kid with a plagiarized clock kicked out of his high school. Obama was probably in on the whole thing too. It was an inside job, just like 9/11 and the Roswell landing..... or maybe a bad kid got kicked out of school for lying about a clock. I'm sure it is whichever of those possibilities is less absurd.
why did you block me lol raltar can you explain
You also haven't ruled out possible court room bias.
I'm not drawing conclusions, merely presenting hypotheticals in an attempt to highlight the salient variables.
If a Muslim can become the valedictorian of the school, it becomes extremely unlikely that there is a bias against Muslims in the school. You also have to consider the other evidence alongside this. Ahmed had a known history of bad behavior and lied about the clock. His father has political and financial motives. In court, his lawyers were unable to produce even the tiniest amount of evidence and all of their cases were thrown out. Each of these is a small stone on it's own, but taken together they become a mountain of evidence against Ahmed. On the other side of the argument we have... nothing.
A single self report from another student does not prove discrimination or Islamophobia is conclusively not a factor in Ahmed's case.
So, even if Ahmed is the only student in history who has ever had the police called after misbehaving in class (an unlikely possibility), we still have to evaluate the motive for why that took place. Con refuses to discuss motive, but the facts I have cited prove that Islamophobia was not to blame. And as Con is unable to provide any other explanation, there is a serious logical disconnect in his claims.
I'm not drawing conclusions, merely presenting hypotheticals in an attempt to highlight the salient variables.
Plus, I cited the school valedictorian who is also a Muslim woman and she stated that there was no bias against Muslims in the school. So if there was any bias at all, it was not Islamophobia.
Except, we don't know or have any statistics available (as Con was unable to provide any sources) regarding how many disciplinary incidents result in police involvement. Plus, even if "discrimination" (based on a very broad and generic definition) may have taken place, it hasn't been established if it was caused by any bias against Ahmed, because Con refuses to discuss that. Lastly, if there was "discrimination" then why were Ahmed's lawyers unable to produce any evidence of such in any of the lawsuits?
(IFF) the police are called for every classroom disturbance (THEN) Ahmed was not discriminated (or islamaphobed) against.
(IFF) the police are called for a very few classroom disturbances (AND) the distribution of those cases is representative of the population of the school (THEN) Ahmed was not discriminated (or islamaphobed) against.
(IFF) the police were only called for Ahmed's classroom disturbance and not for any other classroom disturbance (THEN) Ahmed was discriminated (or islamaphobed) against.