Instigator / Pro
0
1687
rating
555
debates
68.11%
won
Topic
#2986

If we fully deny that biological sex is attached to gender, as well as deny that there are 2 of them (as opposed to 0 or infinite), we cannot properly uphold the cause of Feminism.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
0
0

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
0
1706
rating
33
debates
80.3%
won
Description

Full self-identification as male or female (or one of these genderfluid variants) doesn't take away from the fact that being born female-sex puts you at a societal and statistical disadvantage.

You cannot fight patriarchy if you deny there are two sexes (which link to gender-based oppression that affects girls from a very young age but don't affect males the same way).

Also, the struggle of trans people is a separate, unique kind of suffering that has different 'beef' and issues with the patriarchy and bigotry, than cis-females have (for different reasons, this applies both to childhood, adolescence and adulthood).

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@Theweakeredge

Sorry for not voting dude, I would have if I saw this debate. Very well done, even if I don't necessarily agree.

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@Theweakeredge

Not sure how I missed this one. I would have voted…

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@Nyxified

High praise, thanks, I just try to do my best- though admittedly, I have barely any time nowadays cuz' of summer semester college classes.

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@Theweakeredge

This isn't the first debate you've been in with regards to trans people I've read. You're doing wonderfully! Better than I would sometimes, even, haha

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@RationalMadman

I would personally disagree, but I understand your position. I'd be happy to have a discussion or debate about if you'd ever like to!

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@RationalMadman

Ya know, this is a tad sad RMM, this is entirely your debate that I agreed to debate with you - and you still gave up - another one in a long trend.

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@Nyxified

Thank you for the compliment! I hope I could accurately represent trans-identity, being cis, I try to do as much research and interview prior, but there are definitely cases where I've missed things.

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@Nyxified

You are trans and still are the biological sex you were born as no matter what gender you TRANSfer to.

Society should adapt to care for your feelings regarding gender, not to denying your biological sex. Once we're at a stage where admitting or discussing the latter is taboo, we are at a stage where wrong medicine can be administered to someone and wrongly earned medals in female-sex sports are given to a biological male-sex female-gender individual.

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@RationalMadman
@Theweakeredge

Hoo boy. Being trans, I have a lot to say on this topic, but rather than do that, I just wanted to say that this a great debate from both of you. It was very interesting to read!

RMM

Transwomen go through sexism... arguably more than cis-women - furthermore - again -it is an unempirical claim to say that "trans-women steal trophies", please refer to the evidence I've posted in my round to that claim, and in the Gender Dysphoria forum

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@Theweakeredge

I'm specifically referring to sports and affirmative action quotas. Those are the two primary clashes.

-RMM
Wrong to all - trans-women, typically, do not rob anything from cis-women - you're just empirically wrong there bud.

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@Theweakeredge

So, norm or not, do you agree or disagree with denying that trans-female athlete the eight to rob cis females of their medals? Yes or no.

In an official form that asks for your sex, some want an 'other' or 'prefer not to say' option, while others will lie.

It is considered transphobic to count a trans male as female sex in an affirmative action stat and vice versa with trans females.

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@Theweakeredge

Trans people are outliers, among some within them, it's becoming more the norm as things become more dictated by an agenda that involves denying gender even exists, let alone biological sex.

RMM

Your anecdotes and outliers literally mean nothing to me - I have already proven empirically that this is not usually the case. You can go on and on about it, but ultimately it only reveals your bias.

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@Theweakeredge

one of many growing conflicts between feminism and 'full-on trans acceptance' that do occur.

I must reiterate, I am not transphobic, I am just not afraid to make a trans person admit what their biological sex is for OFFICIAL things that separate and study the statistics of people based on that, while absolutely respecting their pronouns.

When a Male-to-female can rob cis females of their medals (or even the FtM, because the opposite usually prefer to stay in the female sports, though exceptions to occur) it's an unfair advantage because of the undeniable DNA advantage (for trans females) and testosterone muscle-hardness etc advantage of trans males who still want to compete as females.

The problem is that sports isn't the only place it happens, it's just where it's most blatant. When trans females become counted as females for official affirmative action quotas, there is absolutely 100% an undeniable conflict. When a trans woman can enter a female washroom/bathroom, it defeats the core basis and purpose of such female-only safe zones, however I do understand why a trans female would feel uncomfortable entering a male-only bathroom/washroom and I am open to the idea of intersex bathrooms/washrooms becoming more commonplace to render it moot, however again this is only one blatant example. Let's say a group of women start a book club intended to not just be to discuss books but also a safe zone for the women to gossip (you cannot deny this happens, it's not sexist generalising it's a genuine thing females do), suddenly a trans female turns up and they reject her. They do not want to be branded as transphobic (and in no shape or form does this mean they are, since if they reject males from the book club or even another cis female, it doesn't mean they hate that person's gender identity), the problem is at what stage is society allowed and not allowed to blackmail those females to artificially need to feign social acceptance of someone to avoid being branded as something that can destroy their careers and livelihood.

This is happening already in certain places, namely in the UK with people such as JK Rowling who is very vocal of her stance. The issue here is that sexism is about sex, not gender. It used to be the two (sex and gender) were fairly identical so 'feminism' covered both at once, I agree to the idea that the term has to be more specifically defined as anti-sexism, not anti-genderism because it is indeed anti-sexism. Egalitarians include mens rights activists (which should be called masculists but that would maybe trigger some people as seeming offensive).

RMM

The purpose of said clip?

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@Theweakeredge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ-bO2GFJdg

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@Theweakeredge

Nicely done. I was inclined to also take con (in a different debate) due to not seeing the connection in premise, but pro tends to make a ton of very long dense arguments that are difficult to reduce logically.

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@RationalMadman

I know it's not the best example of your strategy. It's just one that I was familiar with because I took the time to read and vote on it.

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@SirAnonymous

That is hardly a good example of my strategy in debates. I have a much stronger case in this debate but it depends how Con comes at me, in terms of how I structure each point and rebuttal.

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@Theweakeredge

It was this debate if you're curious.
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1710-resolved-individuals-have-a-moral-obligation-to-assist-people-in-need

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@Theweakeredge

RM is the guy who went into a debate on moral obligation with a first round that was an appeal to emotion in which he explicitly stated "No, seriously, I know I am appealing to your emotion." If what RM says in a debate is pure rhetoric, it's a fair bet that he knows it's rhetoric and there's a strategy behind it.

In a 5-Round debate, you don't put all your proof and strong pieces of information and preemptive rebuttal in Round 1, or at least I don't.

This is just... raw, unadulterated rhetoric, no proof, no substantiation - just some opinion peace and good ole' fashioned rhetoric. I'll have a blast taking this one apart- not actually -it kinda upsets me that you want me to take you seriously while you present an opinion peace as your substantiation here.

I made the same errors both times I said 'born as' but it isn't essential to the point I was making. I'll correct it in Round 2.

" to deny she is a female and that her birth sex was male "

I meant female for the second one, not male.

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@RationalMadman

I'm currently doing this and a debate with Athias, plus IRL stuff, so I'll try - but understand that might, probably, wont' happen

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@Theweakeredge

Okay I changed it but please try for a week (just because it gets boring and frustrating if both sides fully drag out the two week thing)

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@RationalMadman

I'd prefer the argument time to be two weeks - aside from that I'd be up for this

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@RationalMadman

I'll give it a look over

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@Theweakeredge

This is a genuine attempt to write a fair debate topic for us to properly hash out our disagreement on the matter.