Instigator / Pro
14
1604
rating
6
debates
100.0%
won
Topic
#3005

Spanking/paddling should be allowed as a form of punishment in American public schools.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
0
Better sources
4
2
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2

After 2 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...

coal
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
6
1706
rating
562
debates
68.06%
won
Description

It turns out that some people struggle with the concept of what counts for "reasonable corporal punishment."

So, we'll simplify the topic: "Spanking/paddling should be allowed as a form of punishment in American public schools. "

Spanking/paddling as we're talking about is ONLY that which the law would permit a parent to do in the United States and nothing more.

Structure:

Round 1: affirmative cases (absent any specific refutation of arguments made by the opposing side).

Round 2: rebuttals (and may introduce new evidence in support of such rebuttals).

Round 3: conclusions/voting issues (nothing new that wasn't in Rounds 1 & 2).

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Arguments: Pro
See review below. Basically pro has a ton of harms inflicted by the removal of a system, and proposes a careful reintroduction of an option to be carefully utilized. Con largely alternates between pure assertion and source bombing without proper analysis, even concluding that teachers are evil and will target minorities more (without first bothering to disprove the benefits, leaving it implicitly unfair to non-minorities to not get those spankings).

Sources: Pro.
This is a landslide. See review below.

...

Doing this in two sections, R1 pro -> R2 con, -> R3 pro, and vice versa.

---Pro’s case, counters, and defense---
Pro makes a well sourced case that the current system does not work as it leads to massive harms throughout life, beginning with hard to grades and related matters, and later criminal activity. So we should (in a controlled manner) resume the old method of paddling, which apparently has no lasting harm.

Con counters that the status quo is still an improvement, and source dumps with minimal offered analysis (there’s literally a warning about this in the voting policy: “An argument composed of more than 50% of quotes is not assured to cross this line but is in clear danger of it.”). On this I really need to spell something out to anyone reading: using something as obviously one sided as nospank.net as a source is a poor showing, it’s about like using abortionismurder.com in an abortion debate. This would be less of a problem were the other side not using a ton of respectable .edu and .gov sources
Con does offer three key conclusions from his source dump: if spankings are allowed, students will embrace violence; students will not be able to stay sane or even focus on schoolwork due to being terrified; and troublemakers will drop out even faster. … My preference on sourcing really would have been those as contentions, with links to sources at the end of each one.
Con ends R2 with a source to say it’s a human rights abuse (for this, the source was left to do all the talking).

In R3 pro almost immediately points to his sources being unrefuted (at this point it is earned to call that out). Pro source steals the one about Asia (a source on those academics to support the source stealing would have been nice), before dialing it back by saying those places go to far. He counters the increased targeting of minorities with the current system doing likewise, and a callback to the seemingly worse harms of it. He wisely catches some of con’s counter evidence clustering in other forms of abuse, which sets such outside the scope.

---Con’s case, counters, and defense---
Con argues they will not remember why they were punished, they might turn into sexual deviants due to having that in their formative years, and students with disabilities are slightly more likely to be punished in a school setting. Plus there are issues of taxpayer consent to how their money is spent.

Pro largely defends citing con’s lack of evidence for claims; and even offering counter evidence, such as in current practice they are indeed told both verbally and in writing why, in addition to having a prohibition on application against disabled students. Pro does however get a bit out of line by jumping to “unrefuted” evidence, since the setup he established forbids R1 rebuttals.

Con repeats, ignoring evidence based challenges, adds that the teachers who do it are doing it are clearly just doing it out of rage (or at least students believe that is why the punishments occur), to commit physical and emotional abuse wholly separate from any misdeeds…

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

In R1, Pro argues that spanking/paddling should be permitted because (1) status quo discipline sucks, and (2) it's a “reasonable alternative” that “works.” Con argues that spanking/paddling sucks because (1) it shifts focus away from "why," (2) it encourages masochists & sadists, (3) it hurts vulnerable students, and (4) it lacks consent.

In R2, Pro rebuts (1) implementation solves most of Con's concerns, and (2) empirical literature shows that students benefit from spanking/paddling. Con rebuts (1) past was worse than status quo, and (2) spanking harms outweigh effectiveness (this isn't Con's language, but the most charitable reading of his argument that I could come up with).

In R3, Pro concludes that spanking/paddling should be allowed because it benefits students in some cases, at least compared with status quo. Con concludes that spanking/paddling sucks because it causes bad memories, normalizes violence, hurts the vulnerable, and lacks taxpayer consent.

Con never disputes (1) the status quo sucks, (2) spanking/paddling "works," or (3) better discipline leads to better outcomes. Instead, Con focuses on proving harms. But proving harm doesn't show that a future with spanking/paddling is worse than the status quo. Comparison matters. Con didn't offer any alternative to the status quo, so he needed to show that spanking/paddling makes matters worse than they already are.

Con briefly asserts that a past with spanking/paddling was worse than status quo. But Con didn't offer any evidentiary support or analytic development on this point, leaving only his baseless assertion. I was left with a clear sense at the end of this debate that spanking/paddling could improve the status quo in some cases, and therefore that it should be allowed. Thus, Pro wins.