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Which were worse, the BLM protests/riots or the January 6th capitol protests/riots? [@Oromagi]

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With 1 vote and 3 points ahead, the winner is ...

oromagi
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Resolution Which were worse the BLM protests/riots or the January 6th capital protests/riots?

PRO = BLM protests/riots were worse
CON = Jan 6 protests/riots were worse

BLM protests/riots: The George Floyd protests were a series of protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism that began in Minneapolis, Minnesota on May 26, 2020, and largely took place during 2020.[7][8] The civil unrest and protests began as part of international reactions to the murder of George Floyd, a 46-year-old African American man who was murdered during an arrest after Derek Chauvin, a Minneapolis Police Department officer, knelt on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds[9] as three other officers looked on and prevented passers-by from intervening.

Jan 6th protests/riots: On January 6, 2021, a mob of 2,000–2,500 supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump attacked the Capitol Building in Washington, D.C.[a][28][29] They sought to overturn his defeat in the 2020 presidential election[30] by disrupting the joint session of Congress assembled to count electoral votes that would formalize President-elect Joe Biden's victory.[3][31]

BOP is shared.
Both sides must justify their respective positions of the resolution. The debate shall be judged on who is best able to show that one event was worse than another.

Additional rules:
Only Oromagi may accept.

Round 1
Pro
Resolved: Which were worse the BLM protests/riots or the January 6th capital protests/riots?

Framework
  • Our framework has been set largely by the description of the debate. The BLM protests/riots as typically defined, were the large array of protests, turmoil, and civil unrest that took place mostly throughout 2020 in response to the killing of George Floyd by former police officer Derek Chauvin. The January 6th protests and riots were the events of January 6th, 2021, at the US capitol in response to the election of current US President Joe Biden. Both descriptions are fully stated in the debate's description. 
Additional reference terms: 
  • Worse 
    • Of poorer quality or lower standard; less good or desirable. 
    • A more serious or unpleasant event or situation.
Overview
  • I want to challenge what appears to be a popular but unjustified belief. By essentially every relevant metric evaluating harms and damages, the black lives matter riots were significantly more destructive, deadly, and had overall worse impacts than the US capitol protests/riots.
  • The case of pro is this: anyone should acknowledge that the capitol riots were terrible events, but the black lives matter protests/riots were much, much worse. Put simply, these events created some of the most tragic and devastating periods of violence in American history and my heart grieves for the lives taken, and communities ravaged by them. 

[A] Destruction and Damage
  • It must be emphasized the BLM riots were some of the most destructive if not the most destructive series of riots in American history. 
  • According to a September 2020 estimate, "arson, vandalism, and looting caused about $1–2 billion in insured damage between May 26 and June 8, making this initial phase of the George Floyd protests the civil disorder event with the highest recorded damage in United States history" [2]. 
  • Examining this, this extreme mass destruction only occurred in the "initial phase" of the protests and riots, only between 13 days (between May 26 and June 8). The true amount and scale of the damage is undoubtedly significantly worse if this multi-billion dollar figure only accounts for a mere two week period indicating that in just under two weeks, the black lives matter protests and riots had done more damage than many hurricanes.  

I - Homes, Businesses, and Property 
  • "More than 1,000 buildings were burned or damaged in Minneapolis in the days after George Floyd's murder. Criminal charges have been filed in connection with 11 of them" [6]. These waves of mass destruction occurred in just one city alone (Minneapolis) in a period of mere days
  • As a result of these BLM protests and riots "thousands of businesses and propertiesmany minority-owned, were looted, torched, or otherwise vandalized." [1]. 
  • Given that so many black communities, homes, and businesses were destroyed in the BLM riots, it seems like a paradox that the very movement that claims to uphold the doctrine that "black lives matter" would lead to the mass destruction of black homes, black churches, black schools, and thus, black communities. 
  • Livelihoods, most egregiously African American livelihoods were ruined by these protests. 

II - Broader and Lasting Harm to families 
  • Consider the many American families that own small businesses.
  • Now, consider the many American families that rely on their small businesses as their source of income. What would happen if it was burned to the ground? 
  • Imagine an innocent family that has a home, whether that be a house or an apartment. What would happen if they suddenly lost the home to barbaric rioters who decided to burn it down? 
  • This sadly was the reality for many American families. As a result of the BLM riots, they lost their homes and sources of income many of them burned to the ground, destroyed, and/or looted beyond recognition. This alone is significant enough for anyone to acknowledge how much worse these riots were in relation to the capital riots, but their implications are strong enough to affect generations of people. 

III - Broader and Lasting Harm to neighborhoods and communities
  • In Minneapolis, the heart of the BLM riots, an Apartment building was set ablaze during George Floyd's protest after a protester deliberately set it on fire on East Lake Street." [3]. The complex was under construction and would have provided homes to hundreds if not thousands of people. 
  • The key here was that the building was under construction. The black lives matter riots as established, have done considerable damage to infrastructure in communities. The consequences of this are all the more devastating and nuanced. 
      1. Developers of this infrastructure leave these communities in reaction to the violence and the destruction of their projects. 
      2. Businesses leave these communities which harms their local economy and contributes to their poverty. This was very common during the active months of the BLM protests [12]. 
      3. The rampant violence and damages reduce the property values of the community also contributing to its poverty and stagnation. 
      4. Less people are willing to serve in public institutions in areas rampant with violence. This leads to fewer teachers, fewer doctors, etc. This directly harms the education of many innocent children and sets them up on a shaky foundation. Their crime? Living and breathing in areas decimated by "black lives matter." 
  • It is no secret how badly riots affect property value [10]. In 2020, destructive black lives matter riots raged across the country reducing the property values of homes and neighborhoods across countries and states. 
  • As a result of this, the BLM protests and riots contribute to and perpetuate a continual generational cycle of poverty and disadvantaged communities. 

[B] Killings, casualties, and injuries 
  • The New York Times reports that "At least six people have been killed in violence connected to the protests that started after Mr. Floyd died in police custody" [13]. Other organizations identified the casualties to be up to 19 (in two weeks). Ultimately, even just one death is horrific and unjustified and in this section, I will show you how the BLM riots led to a widespread nationwide increase in homicides, killing many more innocent people. 

I - Police Injuries
  • NBC reports that "Nearly 400 NYPD Cops Hurt During NYC's Two Weeks of Protest Over George Floyd's Death" [5]. These injuries are within the first two weeks of these protests and riots alone and are solely injuries from the New York Police Department. 
  • Looking Nationwide, "More than 2,000 law enforcement officers were injured in the first weeks of protests over the summer following the in-custody death of George Floyd" [7]. Once again, in just the first few weeks.
  • We must agree that Police officers are necessary to maintain peace and protect communities across our country. The injury and abuse of these very police officers make these communities more unsafe, vulnerable, and susceptible to crime. 

II - Crime
  • Radical increases in crime arising during and as a result of the black lives matter protests and riots are very well documented, and we have undoubtedly seen the large-scale result of a mass injury and devastation to the police force. 
  • According to a serious 20-plus page report from the Commission on COVID-19 and Criminal Justice (CCCJ), “homicides, aggravated assaults, and gun assaults rose significantly beginning in late May and June of 2020" [8]. 
  • Ph.D. candidate at the University of Massachusetts, Travis Campbell, further found in his analytical research that "murder rates soar dramatically in cities after BLM protests with up to 6,000 extra deaths nationwide - massively outweighing the decline in police killings, researcher finds" [9]. 
  • While police killings declined slightly (most likely a result of mass injuries leaving them understaffed) the murder rate intensified to tragic heights, all a result of the black lives matter unrest. 

Comparative analysis
  • Damages:
    • The US department of justice states that the capitol riots cost $1.5 million worth of damage to the U.S. Capitol building [11]. As we have shown that BLM riots did up to 2 billion dollars in damage in just two weeks [2]. This means that the BLM riots were 1333 TIMES MORE DESTRUCTIVE than the capitol riots.
  • In round 2, I shall move on to rebut my opponent's case and expand on this comparative analysis.  
Sources
  1. https://fee.org/articles/george-floyd-riots-caused-record-setting-2-billion-in-damage-new-report-says-here-s-why-the-true-cost-is-even-higher/
  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932022_United_States_racial_unrest
  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp88QaUm92Q
  4. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fire-building-mn/fact-check-minneapolis-building-on-fire-is-apartment-complex-not-police-precinct-idUSKBN23537D
  5. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nearly-400-nypd-officers-hurt-during-nycs-two-weeks-of-protest-over-george-floyds-death/2455285/
  6. https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/05/27/one-year-later-few-charges-for-the-arson-and-destruction/
  7. https://www.policemag.com/585160/more-than-2-000-officers-injured-in-summers-protests-and-riots
  8. https://quillette.com/2021/01/27/did-the-blm-protests-against-the-police-lead-to-the-2020-spike-in-homicides/
  9. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9500789/Murder-rates-dramatically-cities-BLM-protests-researcher-finds.html
  10. https://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2010/12/22/how-riots-can-influence-an-economy/?sh=73ddd61c6335
  11. https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-year-jan-6-attack-capitol
  12. https://www.florida-edc.org/blog/june-2020/businesses-leaving-riot-torn-cities-is-a-man-made
  13. https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-protests-timeline.html



Con
Thx, Novice_II-

WHICH [was] WORSE: the BLM protests/riots or the January 6th Capitol  protests/riots?

DEFINITIONS:

OBJECTION: (moving goalposts)  PRO defined BLM protests as "protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism" but then redefines that term in R1 (after CON has accepted the debate) as  "the large array of protests, turmoil, and civil unrest that took place mostly throughout 2020."   Now PRO has widened the circle of CON's subject to include
  • acts of violence by police, some justified, some less so,
  • acts of violence in opposition to BLM, and
  • opportunistic acts of violence and vandalism by people with no particular political motive
    • (which represents the majority of the claims PRO lists here).  
VOTERS will note that PRO has the responsibility to stick to his original definition and  separate the acts done in protest against police brutality and racism from the acts done by police, counter-protesters, and opportunistic criminals.  PRO has failed to make any such attempt in R1, lumping wheat and chaff  all together.  If PRO continues to fail to stick to his original definition in future rounds, VOTERS are asked to view all of PRO's statistics as overgeneralized, inflated, and unfairly prejudicing.

PRO also defined our provable condition, WORSE, after acceptance.  PRO failed to define WORSE according to any particular standard so VOTERS should feel free to evaluate quality according to any applicable standard, not just by injuries and damage amounts.

BURDEN of PROOF:

Wikipedia advises:

"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo. This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence."

As the instigator of this debate, PRO bears the entire burden of proof for this debate.  PRO must show that the BLM protests (and only the BLM protests) were WORSE by any applicable standard than the attack on our US Capitol.  If CON can show that Jan. 6th was worse by some standards, PRO's argument must fail.

STANDARD1: FIGHTING for a LIE is WORSE than FIGHTING for the TRUTH

  • Stop the Steal falsely claimed that Donald Trump was denied victory by widespread election fraud.  The falsity of this claim was well established and well publicized long before January 6th.
  • BLM honestly claimed that George Floyd was unjustifiably murdered  by police and demanded a national accounting of systemic racism and police policy.
  • If VOTERS agree that promoting a lie is WORSE than promoting the truth, then PRO's case stands disproved.
STANDARD2:  CIRCUMVENTING the US CONSTITUTION is WORSE than DEMANDING ENFORCEMENT of the US CONSTITUTION

  • Stop the Steal sought to illegally overturn Trump's defeat by disrupting the Constitutionally mandated joint session of Congress assembled to count electoral votes that would formalize President-elect Joe Biden's victory.
  • BLM  demanded equal protection under that law as guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment.
  • If VOTERS agree that Americans undermining the US Constitution is WORSE than Americans upholding the Constitution, then PRO's case stands disproved.
STANDARD3:  DEMOCRACY
  • Stop the Steal sought to violently impose the falsified and unpopular political will of a minority in power over the properly expressed majority intent. 
    • "More than 1,000 Americans in positions of public trust acted as accomplices in Donald Trump’s attempt to overturn the 2020 election result, participating in the violent insurrection at the US Capitol on 6 January or spreading the “big lie” that the vote count had been rigged."
  • By contrast, the BLM protests were single greatest political protest in US history.
    • "By the end of June, more than 4,700 demonstrations had occurred in the United States—a daily average of 140—with an estimate of 15 million and 26 million total participants.  Protests had occurred in over 40% of the counties in the United States.  Protests in the aftermath of Floyd's murder were then considered the largest in United States history."
  • If we can agree that 26 million Americans,(across the political spectrum but many disenfranchised minorities) seeking to reform the existing political structure is more democratic than a few thousand seeking to pervert existing political structures and impose their poltical will, then VOTERS should agree that anti-democratic protests are worse than democratic protests and so PRO's case stands disproved.
COUNTERARGUMENTS:

  • Pro's claims critically depend on a conflation of protests organized by BLM with the general civil unrest of 2020. 
    • PRO has neglected  separate our subject  BLM "protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism"  from damages inflicted by people who were clearly not participating in BLM protests against racism, including the actions of police and counterprotesters as well as mere anarchists, radical opportunists and right-wing extremists exploiting the overextension of police protection.
      • For example, according to Minneapolis police arson investigators, George Floyd protests had been relatively peaceful until instigated by the "Umbrella Man," who was recorded smashing out windows with a sledgehammer and spray painting "free shit for everyone zone" near the 3rd Police Precinct. " who police link to a local white supremacist group, 
        • According to one police affidavit:  "This was the first fire that set off a string of fires and looting throughout the precinct and the rest of the city, until the actions of the person your affiant has been calling 'Umbrella Man,' the protests had been relatively peaceful."
      • For example, White supremacist Ivan Harrison Hunter, conceded that on May 28 he drove to Minneapolis from San Antonio, TX to incite violence and at least fired 13 rounds from an assault rifle into an evacuated Minneapolis police precinct station as other rioters looted it and lit it on fire.
      • For example, PRO attributes  19 deaths to BLM protests during the first two weeks but none of those deaths were really part of "protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism."
        • We can eliminate the four police shootings as protests against police brutality and racism
        • We can eliminate the five people shot by store owners as protests against police brutality and racism 
        • We can eliminate the cop murdered by White supremacists
        • We can eliminate the two people run over by cars
        • We can eliminate the guy who killed himself trying to bomb an ATM
        • We can eliminate the guy who died unnoticed in a pawn shop fire
        • We can eliminate the two cases police later said were unrelated to protests
        • One case a white guy shot a black kid after being shoved.  He was exonerated in court as self-defense.  Neither party had attended any BLM protests but were touring the riot scene late at night.
        • We're left with one black retired police who responded to a break-in at a pawn shop far from any BLM protest site where he worked security.  Neither assailant had attended any BLM protests.  Both were black.
          • Only a handful of these deaths attended any BLM event
          • Not one death was attributed to protests against police violence or racism
          • And yet all 19 are tagged as BLM protest deaths, why?
      • A Washington Post/Harvard study reviewed 7,305 protests associated with BLM during the summer of 2020 and found:
        • The overall levels of violence and property destruction were low, and most of the violence that did take place was, in fact, directed against the BLM protesters.   
        • Protesters or bystanders were reported injured in 1.6 percent of the protests. In total, at least three Black Lives Matter protesters and one other person were killed while protesting in Omaha, Austin and Kenosha, Wis. One anti-fascist protester killed a far-right group member during a confrontation in Portland, Ore.; law enforcement killed the alleged assailant several days later.
        • Police were reported injured in 1 percent of the protests. A law enforcement officer killed in California was allegedly shot by supporters of the far-right “boogaloo” movement, not anti-racism protesters. The killings in the line of duty of other law enforcement officers during this period were not related to the protests.

  • We've established that PRO has credited 19 homicides to BLM protestors by lumping in violence by police, violence by right wing extremists, violence by non-political opportunists, when in fact zero homicides were committed by BLM protestors during those two weeks. PRO's data is shown to be corrupt: he is attributing casualty numbers and damage estimates to BLM when in fact a very diverse array of groups and motivations must be factored into any honest assessment. Until PRO separates out all the irrelevant and false casualty and damage claims, we have no realistic sense of what BLM is actually responsible for and what is merely lazy journalism.
    • So, for example, How many of those 400 NYPD Cops injured during protests were injured by BLM protestors at BLM protests?  How many by rioters?  How many by White supremacists?  Does anybody really know?
    • When PRO credits all increased crime and economic impacts to BLM protests is he likewise forgetting the diversity of groups contributing to disruptions and  the impacts and of the COVID-19 pandemic on police enforcement, school attendance, increased stress at home, etc?  PRO mentions hurricanes but gives little consideration to the scale or impact of natural disasters in his economic assessments, in spite of the record $95 billion in damages Americans suffered in 2020.
  • VOTERS should discard PRO's whole argument as lazy attribution and Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
SOURCES in comments.


Round 2
Pro
  • Con has stated his sources in the comments outside of the debate, and an obvious tactic to save character space. Nowhere in the rules did I say this is allowed, and nowhere was this previously agreed upon. As con has extended his round 1 by posting additional content outside of it, I ask the voters to deduct conduct points from my opponent as this should warrant such. 

"Moving the goalposts"
  • Con's accusation of moving the goalposts is false. The debate is over the BLM protests/riots vs the January 6th capitol protests/riots. This means we are debating both protests and riots (both have shown differing levels of devastation) pertaining to both events. 

Burden of proof
  • Con misguidedly theorizes that I secretly have the full burden of proof. 
  • The debate description clearly states: "BOP is shared. Both sides must justify their respective positions of the resolution. The debate shall be judged on who is best able to show that one event was worse than another." 
  • Not only is the burden of proof shared, but this is also has been established and agreed upon by con's acceptance. 
  • My opponent has broken the rules of the debate by attempting to shift the burden of proof. I ask the voters to consider conduct points for this. 

Standard 1
  • Con makes his first contention based on this argument that:
    1. Supporting the truth is better than supporting a lie
    2. The black lives matter riots and protests were primarily based on truth (being the death of George Floyd).
    3. Therefore the black lives matter riots were better than the capitol riots. 
  • While only one of the premises needs to be disproved to refute this, the argument is a non sequitur. Fighting can be fundamentally based on truth (such as specifically the killing of George Floyd) and still ultimately deal more destruction, harm more innocent people, and have more devastating results. All this was true for the black lives matter unrest. 
  • Was the Us invasion of Afghanistan based on truth? Most definitely. 
  • "On October 7, 2001, the US invaded Afghanistan to avenge the al-Qaida-orchestrated September 11 terrorist attacks" [1b]. 
  • The 9/11 terror attacks and the rise of terrorist activity were a real phenomenon in the middle east and America. However, the Afghanistan war led to millions of more deaths, caused horrific levels of destruction, and extrapolated harm that is not justified by the truth of its origin. 
  • Con's argument would have you believe that the January 6th riots were somehow worse than the Afghanistan war. This is of course, unreasonable. 

Standard 2
  • CON argues that BLM protestors were simply demanding enforcement of the constitution and therefore the capitol riots are worse. However, rioting, looting, and burning down houses is not demanding the enforcement of the constitution. There is no section of the constitution that allows such rabid violence and I appeal to con to show one that does. The BLM riots inherently circumvent the constitutional principles of peaceful protest outlined in the first amendment [6b].

Con's third standard
  • Con argues that the black lives matter protests and riots were the "greatest political protest in American history." Frankly speaking, this is irrelevant regardless of whether it is true or not. We are debating which was worse the black lives matter protests and riots or the capital ones. 
  • The fact we must consider is just as I cited in round one: "arson, vandalism, and looting caused about $1–2 billion in insured damage between May 26 and June 8, making this initial phase of the George Floyd protests the civil disorder event with the highest recorded damage in United States history." 
  • As we can surely all agree, arson is not democratic. Rioting is not democratic. Burning down the homes and businesses of marginalized communities, and facilitating the radical increase in crime within them is anti-democratic because it places affected communities at a disadvantage. 
  • Violence is not democratic. Peaceful protesting is democratic. In the capitol riots, most people were doing just that. Only 800 out of a projected up to 80,000 people stormed the capitol [4b] [5b]. This means up to 99.99% of capitol protestors were simply peaceful protestors. 
  • We are ultimately comparing two protests that made use of undemocratic means. Naturally, the one that led to greater harm, destruction, and harm to innocent people was the worst of the two. As we have shown the BLM protests were 1333 times more destructive so by any metric they were worse. 

"BLM violence was not caused by BLM"
  • CON argues that black lives matter violence was secretly caused by white supremacist groups and argues that we don't actually know how much they are responsible for. We can EASILY disprove this claim. 
  • Research by the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) shows that 88% of black lives matter riots were involved BLM activists [3b] and "BLM activists were involved in 95 percent of the riots for which there is information about the perpetrators’ affiliation." 
  • We have therefore established that BLM is responsible for the overwhelming amount of damage, burning of homes, and violence that caused harm to communities most egregiously minority communities. 

Deaths/homicides
  • As I previously stated in round one, deaths and casualties from the black lives matter protests and riots are estimated from different sources to be from 6 to 19 (and likely more due to the figures coming from 2 weeks of activity). 
  • Con says "we can eliminate the four police shootings as protests against police brutality and racism," However, this statement makes the assumption that these shootings were not justified by the police in response to black lives matter violence. If BLM violence forced police officers into a situation in which they had no choice but to kill rogue protestors or rioters, this is a casualty of the black lives matter protests. 
  • Con also says We can eliminate the five people shot by store owners. However, store owners were defending themselves against BLM protestors and rioters. These are again unfortunate casualties of the BLM riots because they are protest encounters that forced these innocent store owners to defend themselves. These are again, casualties attributed to the BLM protests and riots
  • Con says we can eliminate the two people run over by cars. The question is, why were these people run over by cars? Well, one man was "struck by a vehicle while marching between California Avenue and Oak Street." An unfortunate death from the fact that BLM protests occupied roads and were often conducted in unsafe ways, again, these are protest casualties. 
  • Con's source also introduces many new deaths but based on this interplay we have established and confirmed between 6 and 19 deaths just as stated in round one. 
The case of pro 
  • My argument is explicit and remains evident. Remember that over 2000 police officers were injured by BLM riots [7]. 
  • Harm to police officers leads to an increase in crime. We have seen the radical soaring in crime that came as a result of BLM riots and protests. As shown in round one: 
    • Ph.D. candidate at the University of Massachusetts, Travis Campbell, further found in his analytical research that "murder rates soar dramatically in cities after BLM protests with up to 6,000 extra deaths nationwide - massively outweighing the decline in police killings, researcher finds" [9]. 
  • BLM violence directly causes radical increases in chaos and crime
  • Violent protests and riots lead to property damage, which leads to lower property values. This makes communities poorer and more largely affects minority communities and it is a fact of socioeconomics that "if crime levels rise, there will be less money for other services such as education and healthcare" [7b]. 
  • Violence in communities leads to the mass departure of businesses from these communities. As shown in round one this was very common during the active months of the BLM protests [12]. This makes communities poorer and harms their local economies.
  • Violence in areas leads to fewer people being willing to work in these areas. This leads to fewer teachers and fewer doctors etc. This harms the development of these communities and reduces their quality of education as well as any service. 
  • Violence and destruction of property devastates infrastructure. This is seen for example when a protestor deliberately set fire to a large apartment complex that would have given homes to thousands [3]. This makes developers unwilling to start projects in these communities leading to their stagnation. 
  • During the BLM protests, it was very common for BLM rioters to burn down homes and businesses and as shown in round one many of these buildings burned down are the homes and businesses of BLACK PEOPLE and other minorities [1]. For millions of families, homes and businesses are their livelihoods. Imagine having to go temporarily homeless because your home was destroyed. Imagine being unable to provide for your family because your business was looted and destroyed. Black lives matter riots cause lasting and permanent harm to families. 
  • My argument is that the BLM riots perpetuate a generational cycle of misfortune, disadvantaged communities, and disadvantaged families. 
Conclusion
  • CON has shown no evidence that even suggests that the capitol riots were worse in any capacity.
  • I have fully proven the opposite. 
Sources
  1. b. https://www.dw.com/en/
  2. b  https://www.usatoday.com/story/
  3. https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/16/
  4. https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2021/02/
  5. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/
  6. https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  7. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zbhpgwx/revision/2
  • Any source without a letter (ex. [5]) indicates the same source used from round one. 



Con
Thx, Novice_II-

RE: SOURCES in COMMENTS

OBJECTION:  PRO continues to make new rules as our debate proceeds.  CON will  ignore all new definitions and new rules posted after the debate was agreed.
VOTERS will note that all citations are linked in context for their convenience.

RE: "Moving the goalposts"
Con's accusation of moving the goalposts is false. The debate is over the BLM protests/riots vs the January 6th capitol protests/riots. This means we are debating both protests and riots (both have shown differing levels of devastation) pertaining to both events. 
My OBJECTION stands unaddressed.   CON accepted this debate in the good faith expectation that we were comparing the relative value of BLM protests to the Jan 6th  insurrection.  But PRO makes no attempt to separate BLM "protests and civil unrest against racism" from other violence, including racist white supremacist violence.  That's like blaming the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee for Bloody Sunday and the Murder of James Reeb. Since CON is dishonestly attributing  the harms of non-BLM protestors- white supremacists, police, non-political rioters, anarchists, etc.  to BLM, actually blaming the victims in some cases, VOTERS are asked to view all of PRO's claims as tainted:  overgeneralized, inflated, and unfairly prejudicing.

BURDEN of PROOF:

The dynamic of BoP  is not merely invoked, it must be earned.  "Fallacious shifting of the burden of proof occurs if someone makes a claim that needs justification, then demands that the opponent justify the opposite of the claim. The opponent has no such burden until evidence is presented for the claim."    PRO has unwisely argued that one protest is WORSE than another by any standard but then only applies the standards of  blood and money and falsely gives BLM all the blame without a single justification.  Until PRO is prepared to limit his claims of harm to "BLM protests against police brutality and racism," and not credit all the riots and violence of the Summer of 2020 to one loose organization dedicated to ending violence, CON can't acknowledge any of PRO's claim as worth crediting.

Standard 1: Truth

Fighting can be fundamentally based on truth (such as specifically the killing of George Floyd) and still ultimately deal more destruction, harm more innocent people, and have more devastating results.
  • But we aren't arguing which event harmed more people and property.  We are arguing which even was WORSE by any standard.
Con's argument would have you believe that the January 6th riots were somehow worse than the Afghanistan war. This is of course, unreasonable. 
  • Rather than compare apples to oranges, I would have VOTERS agree that the Iraq War was WORSE for America than World War II, even though more American soldiers died in the latter because the Iraq War was based on government manufactured lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction and Iraqi terrorism. 
  • PRO seems to concede that BLM intentions were honest.
    • PRO conceded Trump's defeat in DEFINITIONS: "They sought to overturn his defeat"
  • PRO makes no defense of the Jan 6th attacks as an honest enterprise.
    • By the excellent standard of truth-telling, the Jan 6th attacks were WORSE for America than the BLM protests.
Standard 2: Constitutionality

rioting, looting, and burning down houses is not demanding the enforcement of the constitution.
  • PRO has not documented any of these activities at BLM protests against police brutality and racism.
  • PRO seems to concede that the Jan 6th Insurrection was unconstitutional.
    • By the excellent standard of constitutionality, the Jan 6th attacks were WORSE for America than the BLM protests.
Standard3:  Democracy

Violence is not democratic.
  • Tell that to the Founding Fathers
    • "what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."  -Thomas Jefferson
Only 800 out of a projected up to 80,000 people stormed the capitol. This means up to 99.99% of capitol protestors were simply peaceful protestors. 
OBJECTION: We have agreed to define the Jan 6th riots as "a mob of 2,000–2,500 supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump attacked the Capitol Building in Washington, D.C.  They sought to overturn his defeat."  Now PRO says it was only 800.  We can falsify that number easily enough since the FBI has already arrested  and charged more than 800 individuals and is seeking hundreds more, but VOTERS should also note that PRO is again shifting his own facts to suit a different argument.

  • Even disproved, let's note that PRO's math is off by two orders of magnitude.
he one that led to greater harm, destruction, and harm to innocent people was the worst of the two. As we have shown the BLM protests were 1333 times more destructive so by any metric they were worse. 

  • Using PRO's original definition,  842 arrests equals 33-42% of protestors charged with crimes of violence and property damage.
    • Using PRO's new definition 842 arrests out of 800 equal 105% of protestors charged with such crimes.
      • Let's compare either level of criminality to the Washington Post/Harvard study of  7,305 BLM protests which only found any property damage at 3.7% of events and any violence at only 2.3% of events.  That's strong evidence that the Jan 6th riot was far more intense/severe in terms of  harms, and therefore 10 to 50 times WORSE than the BLM protests when taken as a whole.
We are ultimately comparing two protests that made use of undemocratic means.
[Most] violence was not caused by BLM

Research by the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) shows that 88% of black lives matter riots were involved BLM activists and "BLM activists were involved in 95 percent of the riots for which there is information about the perpetrators’ affiliation."
OBJECTION: (fake news)  PRO uses an unreliable source to deceptively mischaracterize ACLED's findings.

  •  The Federalist is an unreliable source of propaganda.  Media Bias / Fact Check ranks the site as untrustworthy:
    • "Overall, we rate The Federalist Questionable and far-Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that always favor the right and promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks."
  • If PRO had consulted the actual ACLED data, PRO would have discovered that the source he cites strongly refutes PRO's case.
    • "The vast majority of demonstration events associated with the BLM movement are non-violent. In more than 93% of all demonstrations connected to the movement, demonstrators have not engaged in violence or destructive activity. "
    • "Despite the media focus on looting and vandalism, however, there is little evidence to suggest that demonstrators have engaged in widespread violence. In some cases where demonstrations did turn violent, there are reports of agents provocateurs — or infiltrators — instigating the violence. "
    • Despite the fact that demonstrations associated with the BLM movement have been overwhelmingly peaceful, more than 9% — or nearly one in 10 — have been met with government intervention, compared to 3% of all other demonstrations
      • "heavy-handed police response appears to have inflamed tensions and increased the risk of violent escalation"
      • Government forces are the primary perpetrators of [journalist] attacks, from beatings and assaults to violent arrests. Since May, ACLED records over 100 separate incidents of government violence against journalists in at least 31 states and Washington, DC during demonstrations associated with the BLM movement.
        • Why is PRO crediting police assault on journalists as BLM?
      • "Since 24 May, over 1,000 pandemic-related demonstrations have been reported in 47 states...... In early August, demonstrations connected to the pandemic surpassed demonstrations associated with the BLM movement ."
        • Why is PRO crediting BLM with thousands of pandemic demonstrations?
      • "Between 24 May and 22 August, over 360 counter-protests were recorded around the country, accounting for nearly 5% of all demonstrations. Of these, 43 — nearly 12% — turned violent, with clashes between pro-police demonstrators and demonstrators associated with the BLM movement."
        • That is, protests against BLM were about four times as likely to be violent as BLM protests.  Why is PRO crediting BLM with violence by people protesting BLM?
Homicides

If BLM violence forced police officers into a situation in which they had no choice but to kill rogue protestors or rioters, this is a casualty of the black lives matter protests
[etc.]

  • Unless PRO can show how a police shooting qualifies as "protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism,"  PRO may not credit that violence to BLM protests.
    • The same dynamic must apply to all of PRO's claims of harm.  PRO's own sources say that police, white supremacists, non-political opportunists, protestors against the pandemic and many other causes all contributed substantially to the violence.  To call all of it "BLM Protest/Riots" is to promote a popular, racist overgeneralization without respect for the truth.
SOURCES in COMMENTS

Round 3
Pro

  • Con stated his sources outside of the debate, an obvious tactic to save character space. Nowhere in the rules is this allowed or previously agreed upon. 
  • Con has extended his round 1 & 2 by posting additional content outside of it. I ask voters to deduct conduct points as this should warrant such. 
  • In response, con claims I am making new rules. Weirdly, this is not a new rule at all. As a default, all content must be within the debate otherwise, why not simply continue your argument in the comments? We can say either
    1. All con's claims are effectively unsourced as references do not count outside of the debate. 
    2. Voters must deduct conduct points from con for extending his round.

Bop
  • I remind the voters that the description of the debate, clearly states: "BOP is shared. Both sides must justify their respective positions of the resolution. The debate shall be judged on who is best able to show that one event was worse an another," and that con agreed to the rules of the debate by accepting it. 
  • Shifting the burden of proof in this manner should be documented as a conduct violation. 
  • As I am the only one that has currently upheld my burden of proof I will restate that I have proven "the black lives matter riots were significantly more destructive, deadly, and had overall worse impacts than the US capitol protests/riots."
  • For con to uphold his burden he must prove that the capitol riots were worse than the BLM riots. Con has failed to do so. 

"Moving the goalposts"
  • I remind the voters that the resolution is "which were worse the BLM protests/riots or the January 6th capital protests/riots?" In both movements, there were peaceful protestors and rioters and we are debating the combination of protests and riots for each respectively. No goalposts have been moved in any way. 
  • I agree that we should not attribute white supremacist violence to BLM but irrespective of that, 95% of violent riots during the period of BLM protests were violent BLM demonstrations [3b]. 
[A] "Most violence not caused by BLM"
  • This is a major point that needs to be emphasized. Con continues to insist that BLM riots were not caused by BLM protesters and activists. Put simply, the overwhelming majority of violence and riots of the period (up to 95%) were violent demonstrations of BLM. Yes, BLM caused these riots. Con will try to lie about/deny this in a few ways and I will show you how his attempts are invalid. 
  • The claim in question is this:
    • "BLM activists were involved in 95 percent of the riots for which there is information about the perpetrators’ affiliation."
  • Con makes two claims:
      1. We cannot trust the direct reporting of research because it is on a right-wing source, but this is simply the genetic fallacy. The origin of the source does not invalidate the scientific and empirical data it cites. 
      2. The Federalist did not use actual ACLED data. This is false. I will illustrate how the ACLED data fully backs up the FACT that 95% of riots over the period were violent demonstrations of BLM.
  • Con argues that BLM protests were mostly peaceful. This is true in the same way that 99.7% of capitol protestors were peaceful protestors, however, it is irrelevant to the extreme amount of damage the riots and violence caused while still being the minority of BLM demonstrations. 
  • According to the ACLED definition: "riots are a violent demonstration, often involving a spontaneous action by unorganized, unaffiliated members of society."
  • ACLED data documents up to 570 violent BLM demonstrations from just May 24th to August 22, 200 [1c]. Applying the same window of time to the ACLED US crisis monitor that reports on riots caused by all groups including the white supremacist groups my opponent refers to, only 603 riots occurred nationwide between that time frame. Calculating a rate of 570/603, we find that BLM violent demonstrations made up 94.5% of riots (approximately 95%). 
  • This is EXACTLY what the Federalist reports: "up To 95 Percent Of 2020 U.S. Riots Are Linked To Black Lives Matter" [3b]. This shows that they claim 100% correct. Con does not even respond to it by assessing his data otherwise he would have seen likewise.
  • The rest of what con posts include other cherrypicked quotes and irrelevant statistics. Voters let me put this into perspective. It does not matter if most of the BLM protests were peaceful. If the percentage of their protests that were violent did 1-2 billion dollars in damage [2]. 

Standard 1
  • Con says "but we aren't arguing which event harmed more people and property." This is incorrect. The description states this debate is to be evaluated by "who is best able to show that one event was worse than another. 
  • How do we best show if an event of destruction was worse than another event of destruction? What makes an event worse? Most reasonably, it is the event that did more damage, took more lives, and caused more harm to poor people, families, communities, and innocent people. The event that ravaged poor and minority communities, the event that burned down homes and businesses. These are the BLM protests and riots. 
  • I refuted con's argument by showing that it that the Afghanistan war was worse than the capitol riots. Con does not dispute this false and responds by making an irrelevant comparison to the war. 
  • Con admits that his argument (based on truth) shows that the 20-year Afghanistan war that killed 168,000 was somehow better than the capital riots and this makes his standard unreasonable. 
  • Con complains this is comparing apples to oranges, admitting that his own argument leads to an unreasonable comparison. 

Standard 2
  • Con agrees that rioting, looting, and arson are not demanding the enforcement of the constitution but says I have not shown this was done by BLM protests and riots. This is patently false, but also an admission that this would refute his argument. 
  • We have established above that up to 95% of riots were just violent BLM demonstrations [1c + 2c].
  • We have established that in these BLM riots "Dozens of people were killed or injured in the violent unrest, and thousands of businesses and propertiesmany minority-owned, were looted, torched, or otherwise vandalized" [1]. In addition, we pointed to a specific example of a BLM protestor who specifically burned down a large apartment building in round one [3].
  • By the extent of con's own standard constitutionality, it is the BLM riots that are worse. 
  • Ultimately there was constitutionality in both movements (peaceful protesting) and unconstitutional elements of both protests (violent destructive riots that caused harm to people). So the movement that led to more deaths, more violence, more destruction, and more harm to innocent people is the worst movement. This is the BLM protests/riots as we have now established as a fact. 

Standard 3
  • Con says "pro concedes Jan 6th protest undemocratic here." Nowhere have I done this. 
  • Both the capitol protests and the BLM protests made use of anti-democratic means, (violent riots) but that does not mean the capitol protests in themselves were anti-democratic in the same way an election having incidents of voter fraud but that does not make the election anti-democratic.  
  • We have already established that 99.7% of capital protestors are simply peaceful protestors. We must all agree that peaceful protest is democratic. By this standard, the anti-democratic BLM riots were 1333 times more destructive than the capitol riots were worse

  • Con argues that more than 800 people have been arrested for capital-related offenses. That doesn't prove that they are ALL guilty, but to save further obfuscation we can go by the definition I cited from Wikipedia although evidence shows that the number was in reality much less, around 800.
  • Con concedes that a projected up to 80,000 people were protesting at the capitol [5b]. Even with the slight adjustment in the number of people who stormed the building for the sake of highlighting its irrelevance, if we assume that 2500 out of a projected 80,000 people stormed the capitol that shows that 99.7% of capitol protestors were simply peaceful protestors, less than half of a percent difference from 99.99%. 

Homicides
  • 6-19 deaths were caused by the BLM riots [10, 13]
  • Con drops all other killings except for the police shootings [10, 13]. These are deaths as a result of BLM rioting because they forced the police to kill. Regardless, with all the new deaths con's own link introduced we are still well within the range of 6-19. This claim remains proven.

Analysis
  • Con says "[the capitol riots were] 10 to 50 times WORSE than the BLM protests when taken as a whole."
  • This claim is false. If we take up to 2 billion dollars [1] done by BLM riots and make a rate with respect to the 1.5 million [11] done by the capitol riots, the BLM riots were up to 1333 times more destructive.
  • As a whole, surely we must evaluate all the damages done totally, no? 

Pro's case, my address
  • Con does not challenge the majority of my constructive argument. I have shown irrefutably that BLM riots have done harm to people. 
  • Remember that as per the rules,"[this] debate shall be judged on who is best able to show that one event was worse than another."
  • My argument is that the BLM protests and riots did much more damage, caused much more harm, lead to the deaths of more people, and ruined the lives of families by destroying their homes and livelihoods. They aid a generational cycle of poor and disadvantaged communities. They have led to drastic increases in homicide rates [8], causing mass injury to police officers [5], which led to even more unsafe communities. 

Sources
  1. https://acleddata.com/
  2. https://acleddata.com/special-projects/us-crisis-monitor/
  • Previous sources reused


Con
RE: SOURCES in COMMENTS

CON will  ignore all new definitions and new rules posted after the debate was agreed.
VOTERS will note that all citations are linked in context for their convenience.

RE: "Moving the goalposts"

No goalposts have been moved in any way. 
  • PRO redefined BLM PROTESTS from "BLM protests and civil unrest against police brutality and racism" to "the large array of protests, turmoil, and civil unrest that took place mostly throughout 2020."  That is, including non-BLM protests, street rioting, etc.   All of PRO's impacts depend one big lie that mixes together the civil unrest by many diverse interests, (most far away from BLM protests sites, and/or most after curfews when BLM protesters had gone home for the night) with BLM protests.  Relying on the same Wikipedia article PRO used to define BLM PROTESTS, we have this description:
"An analysis of state and federal criminal charges of demonstrators in the Minneapolis area found that disorganized crowds had no single goal or affiliation, many opportunist crowds amassed spontaneously during periods of lawlessness, and that people causing destruction had contradictory motives for their actions.  Other analysis found that persons involved in visible crimes such as arson or property damage were not ideologically organized"
  • If we trust PRO's source, then we can't correctly or fairly attribute much of that $1-2 billion in damage to any ideology, including BLM.  PRO's whole case hinges on labeling all of that harm BLM harm but PRO's own sources tell us that's a lie.   VOTERS must find that PRO failed to stick to his original definition and relied on a far more expansive, non-ideological definition of BLM protests to establish all of his claims of harm.
  • PRO also redefined Jan 6th protests from a mob of 2,000–2,500 supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump to 800 supporters.
BoP:

I have proven "the black lives matter riots were significantly more destructive, deadly, and had overall worse impacts than the US capitol protests/riots."
    • Let's note that PRO now claims his burden was to show BLM protests more destructive, deadly, and worse.  In fact, we are just debating which was worse by any standard.  Destructive and deadly are not standards we need apply and given PRO's lack of BLM specific statistics, PRO never even established the degree of harm according to those standards.
    • Extend arguments from R2.
Standard 1: TRUTH

  • VOTERS will note PRO made no effort to defend the Jan 6th attack as ideologically honest.  Every leader and most followers knew Trump's claim was bullshit but attempted to force a lie on to Americans at the expense of Democracy.
  • By comparison, the simple, honest assertion that Black Lives are created equal "precipitated a worldwide debate on policing and racial injustice that has led to numerous legislative proposals on federal, state, and municipal levels in the U.S. intended to combat police misconduct, systemic racism, qualified immunity and police brutality.  The protests led to a wave of monument removals and name changes throughout the world and occurred during the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and amid the 2020 U.S. presidential election season."
    • Arguably, Biden's choice of a black woman for Vice President was a direct response to BLM protests.
  • Using truth as one standard, Jan 6th was much WORSE than BLM protests.
Standard 2: CONSTITUTIONALITY

Con agrees that rioting, looting, and arson are not demanding the enforcement of the constitution
  • That's false.  VOTERS will find that I agreed to no such statement.
We have established above that up to 95% of riots were just violent BLM demonstrations [1c + 2c].
  • PRO deliberately falsifies ACLED data.  ACLED says nothing of the kind
    •  In more than 93% of all demonstrations connected to the movement, demonstrators have not engaged in violence or destructive activity.
    • Despite the media focus on looting and vandalism, however, there is little evidence to suggest that demonstrators have engaged in widespread violence.
    •  despite data indicating that demonstrations associated with the BLM movement are overwhelmingly peaceful, one recent poll suggested that 42% of respondents believe “most protesters [associated with the BLM movement] are trying to incite violence or destroy property”
      • Research from the University of Washington indicates that this disparity stems from political orientation and biased media framing 
 In addition, we pointed to a specific example of a BLM protestor who specifically burned down a large apartment building in round one 
  • PRO's one specific claim is just a YouTube video of a building burning.  Nothing about the video suggests blame for any political ideology.
    • PRO has still  not documented even one specific act of rioting, looting, or arson at any BLM protest.
    • PRO conceded Jan 6th was unconstitutional in R2. 
    • CON extends R1 14th Amendment  argument which PRO has not addressed.
  • In terms of respect for the US Constitution, Jan 6th was much WORSE than BLM protests.
Standard3:  DEMOCRACY

Con says "pro concedes Jan 6th protest undemocratic here." Nowhere have I done this. 
ROUND2&3:  "We are ultimately comparing two protests that made use of undemocratic means."  

We have already established that 99.7% of capital protestors are simply peaceful protestors.  Con concedes that a projected up to 80,000 people were protesting at the capitol
  • FALSE. 
  • To the extent that a hyper-criminal mob of a couple of thousand trying to overturn  the presidential election is manifestly less democratic than 26 million protestors demanding reforms to the existing institution,  CON has shown that the BLM protests were more democratic.
  • In terms of respect for Democracy, Jan 6th was much WORSE than BLM protests.
[Most] VIOLENCE was not CAUSED by BLM

[CON claims] We cannot trust the direct reporting of research because it is on a right-wing source....
  • False.  We cannot trust The Federalist because it reports that ACLED said the opposite what ACLED actually reported.
ACLED data documents up to 570 violent BLM demonstrations from just May 24th to August 22, 200
  • FALSE again.  ACLED documents "fewer than 570 involve demonstrators engaging in violence."
    • Not BLM demonstrations. 
    • ACLED never assigns a numeric value to violence by BLM but does specifically lay much of the blame for violence on non-BLM demonstrators-
      • " It is not meant to suggest all associated events are directly affiliated with the national BLM organization."
      • "demonstrations have erupted en masse around the country, andthey are increasingly met with violence by state actors, non-state actors, andcounter-demonstrators alike"
      • Overall, ACLED data indicate that government forces soon took a heavy-handed approach to thegrowing protest movement.  In demonstrations where authorities are present, they use forcemore often than not. Data show that they have disproportionately used force whileintervening in demonstrations associated with the BLM movement

HOMICIDES

These are deaths as a result of BLM rioting because they forced the police to kill.
  • PRO has failed to justify this remark.  In fact, Jorge Gomez had committed no crimes and was running away from the police when they shot him in the back.  Sean Monterrosa was kneeling in an empty parking lot with his hands on his waist when police shot him in the back of the head.  His shooting was ruled "not objectively reasonable" even after police conspired to destroy the evidence.  Why does PRO blame BLM for these deaths?
  • PRO credits all of the death, violence, police injuries to BLM when no responsible journalism backs this claim. 
    • When we look at PRO's "19 deaths in 2 weeks" claim, we discover that not one BLM protester stands accused of any of these deaths, much less convicted.  To what extent are other acts of violence similarly miscredited?  PRO makes no effort to ascertain the facts.
CONCLUSION

PRO insists that BLM protests were WORSE than the Jan 6th Capitol attacks because BLM protestors inflicted more damage and violence than Jan 6th protestors but makes little effort to honestly document the claim and refutes any other standard by which to judge WORSE.  BY PRO's standard,  the 1,006,451 US deaths from COVID-19 make that pandemic 339 times WORSE than the Sept. 11th attacks...but is that true of the American experience?  By PRO's standard,  the 702 deaths and $195+ billion in damage caused by the 2021 Texas Power Crisis make that event billions of times WORSE than the 21 dead and minor property damage from the Uvalde School Massacre, but is that so?

Beyond the futility of assigning absolute values to suffering, CON has shown that at least George Floyd united much of the nation in outrage and some symbolic and systemic sources of oppression addressed.  Certainly, the majority of Americans affirmed that black lives do matter and deserve the same constitutional protections as any other American.

But is there one positive, pro-American advantage arising from the Republican attack our Capitol, beyond, of course, the vanity of one fat and treacherous would-be king?

SOURCES in COMMENTS

Thx, Novice_II and VOTERS!
Pls. VOTE CON!