Instigator / Pro
0
1510
rating
2
debates
50.0%
won
Topic

goku would beat superman if they had a hypothetical combat governed by the powers and abilities of both in addition to the rules of dc and dragon ball.

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All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

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2

With 2 votes and 2 points ahead, the winner is ...

RationalMadman
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~ 748 / 5,000

firstly i mean random physical combat, goku is not going to beat superman in a game of chess, secondly i am using post crisis version of superman and akira toriyama version for goku, i am not going Let's talk about pre-crisis superman, superman one million, superman's cosmic armor (which is actually a fusion between superman and ultraman) or superman milk.
The feats that superman achieved in crossovers with marvel are not valid (I don't want to see anyone saying superman > thanos) nor those achieved in alternate universes to prime earth (so you can get rid of all the feats of injustice), neither is any validity goku anti-feat that has happened in the anime, and only those that happened in the manga of toriyama and toyotaro will be valid.

Round 1
Pro
beat: kill or knock out.


god, i'm pretty sure rational madman used a kritik, i'll ban them in my future discussions.
oh well
for the time being, I will limit myself to using a single opening argument.
goku has something called hakai:
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Hakai#Levels_of_destructive_power

hakai can erase beings from reality.
superman is vulnerable to these types of attacks.
(as shown in doosday clock number 12).

therefore, to kill superman goku would only need the speed necessary to attack him with the hakai, which in fact he has, in the tournament of power, goku showed that he can move faster than jiren's ki waves, which could cross the entire "void", which according to los angeles is infinite in size, this means that the speed of jiren's ki is infinite and therefore, that of goku as well.
Con
The way that Hakai works (Pro's own source supports) is that it smites, as in it doesn't negate one's existence, it uses energy and converts it into a beam that can smite, this is primarily provable since weaker Hakais can at best turn opponents to dust. Superman is completely and utterly invulnerable to something like this, in fact because this will use energy similar to a typical sun, this runs the risk of superpowering and over-energising Superman to the absolute apex of his powers.

You see, Superman's raw abilities and the dynamics of how the fight can and will go mean that Goku is completely blueballed all fight long:

  1. Goku's mechanics rely on energy releases that are practically solar and this will directly empower Superman. This means that the faster Goku tries to end the fight, the faster Superman reaches apex power.
  2. Superman is almost god-level in terms of how invulnerable he is, Goku's powers are primarily all offensive, so if Goku tries to avoid problem 1 by dragging the fight out, he is about to realise that Superman can chip him away bit by bit and exhaust him while Superman remains entirely invulnerable and steady in energy levels and temperament. 
I will now explore exactly what I am saying scientifically, in order to counteract whatever Pro can try to come up with against it but first and foremost let's properly shut down the Hakai angle.

Invulnerability is the ability to be immune or highly resistant to one or more forms of physical damage or injury. Kryptonians possess this ability due to their exposure to the effects of a Yellow Sun and on a planet with weaker gravity. They possess a dense molecular structure unlike humans, strengthened by a supercharged bio-electric aura. A natural by-product of this ability for Kryptonians is that they are even invulnerable after death, greatly slowing down decomposition. Aside from them, other Metahumans and Aliens possess varying degrees of this power.

  • Superman - While exposed to Earth's yellow sun at the peak of his abilities, Superman is virtually indestructible. He is immune to damage by blunt-force trauma, high-caliber bullets, piercing weapons, extreme temperature, atmospheric re-entry and exposure to the vacuum of space, extraterrestrial weaponry, falls from great heights and massive explosions. Such things can only manage to push back or stun him, but cannot actually injure him.

So, even if Goku somehow pulled off Hakai and even if Pro can prove that the nature of Goku's Hakai isn't akin to the UV radiation from the (yellow) sun, we must observe that Superman while smited to dust can highly resist further damage and will heal back over time even in that mitigated state, rendering it a non-defeat status and at best meaning the fight is a tie but let me now explain why it wouldn't be.

Apart from the fact that all anime long, the Chi/Qi releases are bright and yellow, like sunlight, there are even moves specifically called 'solar' which strongly imply that the way that Qi releases from Goku is akin to solar energy bursts. It is dubbed 'life force' which on this planet (Earth) would be sunlight, so what precisely is it then if not solar?

Even if Pro were able to cast doubt on the idea that Qi's energy releasing is not specifically solar, we are still left to wonder if it bypasses Superman's invulnerability and only two things do this:

Magic and Red Sun radiation

Well, also 'Kryptonite' which is basically crystals that contain the equivalent of the Red Sun's radiation.

There is no way that Goku is realisitcally going to be argued to enter the fight with Kryptonite at hand and he cannot convert his Qi into the equivalent radiation of Red Sun (in all instances it's been yellow and even then we are talking about a physical radiation from a specific element on a specific planet).

As for 'magic' the type of magic referred to is stuff that either psychologically manipulated Superman or can snare him, alter his actions etc. He is extremely invulnerable to the physical blast style from Goku and the mechanics of Qi releases does not count as anything like Magic in DC universe.

To be clear, Superman doesn't technically have a specific magic vulnerability. He is not MORE vulnerable to magic than other people. It's just that he has no special defenses against magic, and thus, something that would magically affect a typical person would also affect Superman. Sometimes, writers (especially Justice League of America writers) so desperate for something to slow Superman down would often act as if magic was a special problem for Superman. It is not.

Goku does not function like a mage-power user in DC universe, he functions like a physical blaster that happens to be sentient. Everything about his powers is physically strong and dangerous, not mentally so or magically mysterious.

So, now let's explore why Superman will win, not just why he will not lose to Goku.

I am sure that Pro will bring up Goku's ability to become superpowered in a terrifying burst as he gets exhausted. You need to remember a couple of things here though; Superman is going to be flying around, dodging a huge amount of goku's abilities, he isn't just going to be relying on his invulnerability that's just not his fighting style and approach. Superman is known to consistently outplay opponents even though he could just take 'hits' relentlessly. He is elegant, strategic and severely adaptable to the opponent's style of fighting. He also has the equivalent of Goku's blasting power, from his eyes and unlike Goku all he needs to do is aim his head and eyes at you to hit it (Goku needs to charge up, exhaust himself and blast). So play this over and over again, who can keep searing into the other's skin and flesh while the other is consistently dodging them and barely getting scratched? That's right, Superman can.

The Man of Steel is one of the strongest heroes in the DC Universe, but Superman is also one of the fastest - even fast enough to dodge Darkseid’s dreaded Omega Beams. Super speed is one of Superman’s most useful skills, dating back to some of his earliest appearances. And his latest feat proves that he’s much faster than a speeding bullet.

Derived from the Omega Effect, these beams are capable of disintegrating their targets or even sending them back through time, and they’re widely considered the most dangerous weapons in Darkseid’s arsenal. They’re infamous for being incredibly fast and nearly impossible to dodge. Superman is no slowpoke, but Justice League: Last Ride #4 by Chip Zdarksy and Miguel Mendonça puts into context just how quickly the Last Son of Krypton can move.

Superman is not a human being at all, he is an alien that could even be deemed a demigod under different circumstances in terms of just how invulnerable and ferociously fast and adept he is. To think of him as just some guy who flies is to completely understimate his prowess at the art of war in itself. He understands the mental game in fighting very well and would be continually noticing angles Goku likes to fire at as well as dodging habits that Goku himself possesses. Superman has dodged and beaten people who had actual beams capable of doing what Pro pretended Hakai can do to Superman, he never let it hit him one time at all

He is unbelievably rapid, mentally present and precise. Goku has to use charging, screaming and bursting his muscles and mind in a meditative form to keep resurging his Qi blasts, furthermore Goku has to heal back whereas Superman barely gets scratched in the first place. Superman can fly so fast that Goku can't react at times (while he is recharing) and can even risk the blast hurting him a bit if Goku did somehow charge back soon enough. We would be seeing flurries of punches, kicks, grabs, and not last but least... Laser beams. Not to mention Superman can super-accurately throw rocks and such to get hit instead of him.

But perhaps his most visceral vision -- and his most dangerous -- is his heat vision. Capable of blasting concentrated beams of intense heat and light from his eyes, heat vision has proven to be one of Superman's most effective -- and brutal -- abilities over the years.

Perhaps the most useful attribute of Superman's heat vision is its sheer versatility. Superman's heat vision has been used in various ways over the years, ranging from precise cuts -- such as his recent use of it in DCeased: Hope at World's End to sever Black Adam's vocal cords so could no longer summon the power of Shazam --to absolutely overwhelming displays of force, like when he unleashed a blast so powerful in Superman/Batman #10 that it wiped out an entire army of Doomsday clones. The beams are hot enough to melt metal with ease, giving him an easy ability to repair ripped apart structures or cut through tough surfaces. He can also utilize it to reduce an empowered being to average with a specific, and invasive use of the heat vision: a heat vision lobotomy.

In "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?" from Action Comics #775 by Joe Kelly, Doug Mahnke, Lee Bermejo, and Rob Schwager, Superman finds himself confronted with the Elite, a band of new brutal superheroes led by the telekinetic Manchester Black who have no problems executing villains. Despite Superman's pleas, the Elite continue to antagonize him and even try to kill him on the Jovian moon of Io. With no other choice, Superman seemingly kills most of the Elite before using his heat vision and x-ray vision to precisely cut through Manchester Black's brain, giving him a minor lobotomy and removing his access to the lobe that granted him his super-powers.

Round 2
Pro
First, let's shoot down some of my opponent's arguments.
"hakai does not erase reality"
it does, zamasu was essentially erased, every atom of his existence vanished, of course hakai uses energy to do this, which doesn't mean he's not wiping his opponent.

"ki is solar energy" the problem however is that it is not true, according to akira toriyama ki is made up of spirit energy, courage and mental strength.
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Ki

then my opponent argues that superman is invulnerable and therefore goku will not be able to kill him, however, as my opponent's definition dictates, invulnerable does not necessarily mean immune to damage, it can also mean that one is very resistant, in the case of superman this was heavily damaged by planetary power characters (like doomsday)

when Goku achieved ssj god form when he fought Beerus where he nearly destroyed the entire macrocosm (a combination of both universes and other god realms) just with just 3 hits Superman can only dream of doing these kind of feats basically. even ssj red is enough to beat superman without breaking a sweat never mind super powerful ssj blue with kaio ken.
https://ibb.co/Fz7Tdth

let's remember that zamasu was practically immortal, he could regenerate from almost any damage, even so the hakai killed him.

another of my opponent's arguments is that superman can fly and could take advantage of this to dodge goku's attacks, the problem however is that goku can fly just like superman and has infinite speed (as the feat of the void shows), so superman could not dodge goku's attacks.
Con
SM= Superman
G = Goku

G cannot use Hakai nearly well enough to what Pro is describing. This is abuse of the debate framework, as it Pro's definition of 'beat' but what I am going to do is use that definition against Pro. G does not meddle with Hakai beyond weak usage because Hakai is a dark art usage of Qi. G's best usage of Hakai was to weakly utilise it as a smiting ability. This fight is not Beerus vs SM.

Hakai needs to be aimed at the opponent and the user needs to be in either melee range or strike them with the energised beam/ball. Furthermore, only God-level Qi users (Goku is not a god level) can release full Hakai. Pro is trying desperately to use something that only Beerus, who fights so different and has different Qi to Goku, ever did to the level that Pro is suggesting.

In fact if Pro wants to base it entirely on Hakai, I should encourage Pro to waste another Round.
Round 3
Pro
ok, it is clear that my opponent did not understand several of my arguments, hakai is not necessary for the discussion, as I mentioned, goku is capable of annihilating a universe and superman can die against planet level attacks, a good example is darkseid (the darseid typical, not his multiversal form), superman's invulnerability is useless here because goku's destructive power is simply too much, my opponent tried to counter this by saying that goku needs to burst and exhaust himself, sadly this is not true, dragon ball characters they can launch highly destructive attacks without exhausting themselves and in extremely short periods of time.

https://ibb.co/WHHLKvc

to disintegrate superman with one of these attacks goku just needs to land, which he can do, which he can do, since as I said before, post-crisis superman can't dodge an infinite speed guy's attacks.

https://ibb.co/d5n7kyY

when goku was fighting bills he wasn't even using a concentrated energy attack, just weak waves, techniques like galickho show that concentrated ki attacks are more powerful than scattered ones, also, I want to mention that superman's heat vision doesn't is capable of destroying anything bigger than a galaxy, majin boo (who had thousands of times less destructive power than current goku) could do it, in fact, he did, so superman's heat vision is not as powerful as goku's ki attacks, not even close , on the other hand, goku has endured attacks from the aforementioned majin buu, superman's heat vision will not be enough to kill goku, my opponent mentions that only god level beings can use full hakai and that goku is not god level, this information is incomplete, by converting to ultra instinct goku can reach god level, although this technique is circumstantial, goku in this form can probably use a full hakai, of course, hakai does not work with higher ki beings, that's why it was useless against jiren.
over the melee range, goku's speed will allow him to enter this superman range, the protective barrier he uses in combat (and which he deactivated in his fight against frieza) would prevent superman's vision from destroying him.
Con
'infinite confirmed' is a slang jargon in DBZ that if someone says it about a character means they are able to reach infinite overt strength. It does not mean infinite speed (you could not be infinitely fast without going back in time) and Pro is constantly alluding to a Hakai capacity that Goku has not got as part of his skillset.

In fact, the Hakai was so irrelevant to Goku that they never had it in the Anime at all, only in the Manga as a one-off event with him executing a weak Hakai that fundamentally smites. Goku is not a god-level character, no matter what somebody types 'infinity' about him or not

What Pro keeps referring to in one way is that Goku, as he charges, has no true limit on how strong and brutal his moves can be and in another is referring to the fact that a character who isn't Goku at all (Beerus) did this Hakai move to the capacity that Pro is alluding Goku to be able to do mid-fight.

Goku's weaker Hakai is visible energy, which Superman would know about and react to insantaneously. As Pro correctly points out, Superman has been against characters with brutally god-level powers before that could hurt him and yet dodged countless aimed lasers and such at him to an extent almost nobody else in the whole of DC is capable of other than teleporters, other superspeed characters like Flash and mind controllers (who would trick the opponent into missing them or aiming at a fake-them).

Superman is one of the most adept characters at dodging in all of fiction, literally all of fiction not just DC and definitely not Dragon Ball Z which has barely any adept dodgers and just power vs power clashes. 

The thing is that Superman has never had to prove the full extent of his relentless healing because he is just that adept of a fighter that the only people who captured him ever were mind-oriented magicians and the only real weakness and way to get at him is with the red sun's energy either literally or via kryptonite and Goku would have access to neither.

Goku's Hakai works via severe radiation and bursts of energy that are both visisble (emitting from his palm) and at most aimed, thus dodgeable.

Superman has fought people at god level, thus above Goku's normal level and at worst equal to his maximum capacity, yet Superman barely came out with a scratch every time. His laser eyes can literally lobotomise opponents, they would let him sear Goku's body over and over again on top of countless hits, kicks, thrown objects etc. 

Superman can travel 186,000 miles per second, and if needed he can travel at a speed a thousand times higher than that. Superman’s reaction time is less than 1 attosecond, which is 1×10−18 of a second.

To better understand Superman’s speed, let us see how he compares against planes and rockets.

For a rocket to successfully reach the orbit around the Earth, it needs to have a minimum speed of 17,600 miles per hour. 

And if the rocket wants to escape Earth’s gravity it needs to travel at 25,000 miles per hour. That’s equal to running across 440,000 football fields, which has a length of 0.57 miles, per hour. That’s insane. 

Cheetah, the fastest animals on earth, has only a speed of 74.56-67.73 kilometers per hour. So we can save time, by avoiding the debate whether or not any animal from planet Earth can outpace Superman. 

With The New 52, which was a relaunch of all ongoing DC comics back in 2011, we got to see Superman travel faster than the speed of light.  This relaunch came at the end of the Flashpoint crossover storyline. 

In that new storyline, based on a post-crisis universe, we saw Superman fly from Vega to planet Earth within 10-15 minutes.  
Given that the distance between these two planets was over 25 light-years, it leaves us with a rough estimation of Superman’s speed – which is 52 Million times faster than the speed of light.  

Along with flying at almost infinite speed, there is one more important superpower Superman has, and that is to travel at the absence of solar energy. There is a popular belief that Superman uses solar power to recharge himself, which is true.

But if anyone forms the argument that Superman can’t function without solar energy, it’s not a valid statement. We have seen Superman travel through the emptiest of cosmic spaces, where it was completely dark and cold.

Which only proves one thing. Superman is capable of storing enough solar power for later use. He can go without sunlight for years, and yet his superpowers will not dwindle.  
In the 2017 DC movie, Justice League, we have seen how even time stands still for Superman. After Superman is brought back to life, he bursts into the sky as soon as he resurrects. He flies to the city center in front of a tombstone.

At this point, the other members of the Justice League were finding it hard to calm him down. And given that, Cyborg’s defense mechanism fired at Superman, as it identified him as a potential threat, makes things only worse. 

So Flash decided to use his superpowers, which is his speed, to control the situation. But as he approaches Superman, he realizes that Superman is maintaining eye contact with him. As if time was standing still for him.

To others, Flash was invisible, thanks to his speed. But Superman knew where he was, what speed he was traveling at, and where he was headed.

But what makes him so fast. Simple. Superman can increase his powers by recharging him using solar powers. A simple yellow star can help him reach unlimited speeds. We can only imagine how fast he can travel through the universe if he uses solar power from a Blue, White, or a Quasar.

The mental speed and accuracy of Superman mid-fight is unfathomable... It is not about his speed alone it's how fast he perceives and reacts to things. Goku is just super powerful, he isn't going to be dodging like Superman is nor hitting like Superman will be. Superman's eyes are going to let him sear the flesh of Goku over and over and over so that Goku has to constantly use Qi to heal, not to hurt, if he wants to outlast Superman and this will eventually lead to a point where Superman outdoes Goku because Goku doesn't have the sheer Qi to blast back at Superman and keep him away from his body (and Superman's punches are no joke, his skin feels akin to steel).

  • Just How Hard Can Superman Actually Punch, Then?
    YouTube user Vsauce3 did some calculations to try and figure out exactly how hard Superman can punch. He argues that the strength of the punch is determined by the force and the acceleration of his fist as it moves through the air. It is also established that the laws of physics say that it couldn't be moving faster than the speed of light – so the speed of the hand is set at 1% lower than this at 99% the speed of light.

  • Doing the calculation reveals that the punch would have a force of 190 quadrillion joules. To put that into terms that you can get your head around, it is the equivalent of 45 megatons of TNT or almost 3,000 nuclear bombs that could potentially be hitting you right in the kisser.
  • You Wouldn’t Even See The Punch Coming
    What makes a punch from the Man of Steel even scarier is that you would never even see it coming. This is because it takes a certain amount of time for the brain to process any light than enters through the retina. While the common thought has been that it can take up to 100 milliseconds for this to happen, recent research has shown that people are capable of recognizing images after an exposure of just 13 milliseconds.
    That time period is completely insufficient for a person to see something moving in front of them. At 1% the speed of light, Superman’s punch would reach your face in less than 3 nanoseconds. He's operating at 99% of the speed of light. The human victim wouldn’t even be able to tell what had happened before they had already been hit.

  • A Punch That Powerful Would Create A Lot Of Heat
  • The energy transferred from such a powerful force being created would release an unimaginable amount of heat. According to Vsauce3, this figure would be an astonishing 80 trillion Kelvin. Considering that the sun itself is only around 15 to 16 million Kelvin at its core, that makes it a lot hotter than anything else in the solar system. In fact, the punch would create a heat blast that was some 5 million times hotter than the sun. It’s no wonder then that the punch would require the calorific equivalent of 82 billion Big Macs.

  • Everything In The Surrounding Area Would Be Destroyed
  • A full-force punch from Superman would not just be bad for you. It would cause mass devastation to everything and everyone around it. The sheer amount of energy released from the fist moving through the air would cause the particles in the air to fuse together. This nuclear fusion event would release gamma rays and even more energy, causing a huge explosion and shockwave that would flatten anything in its path.

  • If You Didn’t Disintegrate, Superman Would Punch Your Head Straight Off
  • If an unfortunate victim was able to withstand the intense physical forces enough to not break down at the atomic level, Superman would still leave a pretty big mess. Just imagining that he pulled his punches enough not to create a massive nuclear explosion, he would still be powerful enough to punch straight through a skull. The victim’s head would travel so quickly that it would snap off. Meanwhile, the Man of Steel would be pushed into the ground at it crushed beneath him from the recoil.

Pro has tried to define 'beat' in a way that somewhat favours Goku as it lets 'knocking out' or 'knocking unconscious' be a victory. The reason Pro had to resort to this is that Superman's body can regenerate and heal even if Goku's smite-like Hakai were somehow able to hit him and turn him to dust. Superman would knock Goku out anyway.

Round 4
Pro
in this specific case infinity confirmed refers to the fact that goku made an infinite universe tremble, this is only possible if goku's energy travels through an infinite distance in a finite time, which means that its speed is infinite.
"It doesn't mean infinite speed (you couldn't be infinitely fast without going back in time)"
this applies in real life, but not in a world governed by the rules of dc and dragon ball.
hakai is part of goku's abilities, goku has used it, regardless of whether it serves him in combat or not.
"In fact, the Hakai was so irrelevant to Goku that they never had it in the Anime, only in the Manga as a one off event with him executing a weak Hakai that fundamentally hits."
implying that it is part of goku's skill set.
toppo was a candidate to be god of destruction and vegeta was stronger than him, goku in ultra instinct is stronger than vegeta.
"What Pro is still referring to in a sense is that Goku, while charging, has no real limit to how strong and brutal his moves can be."
yes, but i also mean that his movements are infinitely fast, and that he doesn't need to charge to unleash outrageously powerful attacks, attacks capable of annihilating superman in an instant.
I stopped using hakai as a base argument a long time ago, I'm just trying to strengthen it along the way.
"This Hakai moved to the ability Pro is alluding to Goku so he can do it in the middle of the fight?"
in ultra instinct, the hakai probably will.
"As a pro correctly points out, Superman has been up against characters with brutally divine powers"
the problem however is that the word "divine" is very relative, kamisama is a god.
goku is faster than flash.
dragon ball has hundreds of subjects that dodge faster than the speed of light (dyspo exceeded the speed of light) and even characters that dodge time jumpers (like goku)
"The thing is, Superman has never had to demonstrate the full extent of his relentless healing"
I will accept that superman's healing is superior to goku's, however, superman has never recovered (without outside help) from being completely torn to pieces, goku doing this to superman with his weaker attacks.
the problem is that this is relative, as i said, kamisama is god level and is billions of times weaker than goku.
"The thing is, Superman has never had to demonstrate the full extent of his relentless healing"
I will accept that superman's healing is superior to goku's, however superman has never recovered (without outside help) from being completely shattered, goku does this to superman with his weaker attacks.
The problem with the divine is that it is relative, i said, kamisama is god level and is billions of times weaker than goku.
"but Superman barely got away with a scratch each time."
In a matchup against Kamisama, Goku would also come out without a scratch.
"His laser eyes can literally lobotomize opponents, allowing him to singe Goku's body over and over again in addition to countless punches, kicks, thrown objects, etc."
that of course won't work on goku, superman's gaze has never lobotomized an opponent as powerful as goku, goku has endured galactic-scale attacks like those of majin bu, which far exceed superman's laser vision.
"Superman can travel 186,000 miles per second"
this is still less than infinite speed.
"and, if necessary, it can travel at speeds a thousand times greater than that."
even less than infinity.

"Superman's reaction time is less than 1 attosecond, which is 1×10−18 of a second."
reacting to time-jumping opponents is a better display of reaction speed, goku had 0 time to react.
"Superman's mental speed and accuracy in the middle of the fight are unfathomable..."
like goku's.
"It's not just about his speed, but how quickly he perceives and reacts to things."
Reacting to the time-jump punch is more impressive than any of Superman's reaction feats.
"Goku is super powerful, he won't dodge like Superman or punch like Superman."
he has dodge even better than superman, as i already mentioned goku can dodge hit time jump, he can even dodge time transcending beings like jiren.
"Superman's eyes will allow him to burn Goku's flesh over and over again"
impossible since goku has resisted majin buu's attacks
"so Goku has to constantly use Qi to heal himself."
so goku doesn't have master karin's beans?, well, in any case, the ki barrier that goku can form would prevent him from being hurt by superman's heat vision.
"because goku doesn't have the pure qi to shoot superman", superman's heat vision won't be enough to hurt goku.
"and keep it away from your body (and Superman's punches are no joke, his skin feels like steel)."
I don't underestimate superman's blows, the problem is that they don't work against goku's ki barrier.
"So even if Goku somehow repairs Hakai and even if Pro can prove that the nature of Goku's Hakai is not similar to the sun's ultraviolet radiation (yellow), we have to keep in mind that Superman, while turning to dust, it can take a lot more damage. it would be."
if even what my goal says about healing superman were true, we must remember that majin buu had the same ability, goku disintegrated majin buu.
"I'm sure Pro will mention Goku's ability to become super powerful in a terrifying burst when exhausted." that's how it is.
"You have to remember a couple of things here though; superman is going to be flying" many of goku's opponents were flying from frieza to majin buu many have in common that goku killed them.
"dodging many of goku's abilities"
which is not enough, if goku hits only one of his attacks, superman will die like majin buu did.
"Not only is he going to rely on his invulnerability, that's not his fighting style and approach. Superman has been known to consistently outmaneuver his opponents even though he could take 'punches' relentlessly."
I agree with this however sooner or later Goku will manage to land at least one attack at which point Superman will die.
"It's elegant, strategic and very adaptable to the opponent's fighting style." Like Goku, he can learn techniques and skills from his opponents in very short periods of time.
"He also has the equivalent of Goku's explosive power, in his eyes, and unlike Goku, all he needs to do is point his head and eyes at you to hit him."
no, superman's gaze is far below goku's destructive power (he shook an infinite void).
"(Goku needs to charge, exhaust and explode)". Not really, Dragon Ball characters can unleash extremely destructive attacks.
"So play this over and over"
it will not work.
"Who can keep searing the other's skin and flesh while the other constantly dodges and barely scratches? That's right, Superman can."
Superman can't.
"Superman is not a human being at all, he is an alien who could even be considered a demi-god in different circumstances in terms of how invulnerable"
like majin buu
"fiercely fast" less than goku
  "and I kept noticing the angles Goku likes to shoot at"
goku instead would realize that superman is predicting his angles and would change his strategy
"As well as avoiding the habits that Goku himself possesses."
before which, goku would change his habits.
"Superman has dodged and hit people who have real lightning capable of doing what Pro pretended Hakai can do damage to Superman without letting him hit him once."
I agree, but I don't think it happens as fast as goku.
"He's incredibly quick, mentally present and precise."
like goku
"Goku has to charge, scream and pop his muscles and mind in a meditative way to keep resurfacing his Qi blasts" I repeat, this is false, as I showed, ki can be released almost instantly.
"Also, Goku has to recover while Superman barely scratches himself in the first place."
this only applies when virtually infinite amounts of energy are released.
"superman can fly so fast that sometimes goku can't react (while recharging)" goku doesn't need to recharge.
"And he may even risk hurting himself a bit from the blast if Goku somehow charges up early enough."
no, even a sudden attack from goku, can destroy universes nowadays, superman would be shattered.
"We'd be seeing flurries of punches, kicks, grabs" I doubt it, but even if it happens, Superman won't beat Goku.
"And not last but not least... Laser beams."
that won't hurt goku.
"Not to mention that Superman can throw rocks with great precision to take a hit."
the rocks will not hurt goku.
The last argument about the healing factor is insufficient.
sources:
Hit jumps in time:
Goku dodged a blow:
Majin buu can destroy a galaxy:
Goku resists Majin Buu's attacks:
Kamisama is a god:
Majin buu has regeneration:
Dragon ball characters unleash attacks of enormous power without recharging or exhausting:
Goku can destroy the universe with very little effort:
Goku shook an infinite void:
Jiren dodges Goku's attacks and Goku dodges Jiren's attacks.


Con
This is some real gish gallop from Pro.

Just type a ton of points show random moments on a comic to 'prove' something.

You say nonsense that is just untenable. Goku's radiation/energy-based attacks require charging. He needs to charge himself up. It also is what Superman is inherently invulnerable to and can dodge over and over again.
Superman is not an idiot, he'd keep his distance, move rapidly in and out for punches and such and shoot Goku's body at any time he could try to (even if Goku was too fast to see, Superman could outpredict flash during fights due to unbelievably fast perception and prediction).

Superman literally would not lose, Goku would be seared and hurt need to charge to heal over and over and while that drains him, his charging takes more time, leading to Superman winning the war of attrition in the long run (especially if the fight happened during daytime hours on Earth which is a completely natural assumption to be making for this debate as the battleground wasn't stated and that's normal for us).
Round 5
Pro
This is a real gish gallop from Pro."
not really, just contradict what you said before.
"Just write a ton of dots showing random moments in a comic to 'prove' something."
as long as that something is relevant to the discussion, I don't see the problem.
"You say nonsense that is just untenable. Goku's radiation/energy based attacks require charging. He needs to recharge."
charging:
"to move quickly and violently, especially towards something that has caused difficulty or anger"
As I showed before, Dragon Ball characters (including Goku) can release Kin without any difficulty.
"As I showed above
It's also what Superman is inherently invulnerable to."
as you showed being invulnerable only means having a great resistance to it, the problem however is that goku's power is too much even for superman's invulnerability, for example, there are animals that have great resistance to radiation (such as the cockroach ), but if you attack them with too much radiation they die, something similar with superman, he has a great resistance to ki, but with too much ki (the one from goku's single attack) superman dies.
"and can dodge over and over again."
superman can't do this simply because goku's speed is far superior to superman's.
"Superman is not an idiot, he would keep his distance, move quickly in and out to land punches and such"
superman's distance will be useless, ki attacks will reach superman, and kill him sooner or later.
again, this is useless, goku can withstand attacks billions of times higher than superman's punches.
"and would shoot Goku's body any time he could try (even if Goku was too fast to see, Superman could outrun the flash during fights due to incredibly fast perception and prediction)."
which would be useless again, goku has endured galactic and even universal, superman's attacks are planetary.
"Superman Literally Wouldn't Lose"
sooner or later goku will hit at least one ki attack, at that time superman will die.
"Goku would be singed and injured"
it wouldn't be, goku wasn't hurt by various universal bill attacks, it won't be by superman's planetary attacks.
"he would need to charge to heal over and over and while that wears him out"
I wouldn't need it, goku just wouldn't be hurt by any superman attack.
"its loading takes more time"
not really, goku has the kameha (I don't mean kamehameha) that releases energy attacks in almost instantaneous periods of time.
"which leads to Superman winning the war of attrition in the long run (especially if the fight happened during daylight hours on Earth, which is a completely natural assumption for this debate since the battlefield was not mentioned and that's normal for us)."
and here is the heart of the matter, my opponent believes that superman can turn this into a war of attrition (where superman would win), yet goku can unleash (in a very short time) large amounts of attacks, each one is enough to kill superman, if goku lands a single attack, superman will die, since goku is faster than superman, at least one of his attacks will land.
Source:
Charging definition:

Con
Forfeited