Thanks, That2User. May the force be with you.
S1: Purpose and Education
I maintain a view basically of Nihilism: that there is no inherent reason why we live, instead, the reason should be subjective to any individual instead of being fixed, as all established sets of philosophical ideas regarding an objective purpose of "us" can be questioned. Unless Pro proves there to be in fact an objective reason one lives for, the reason for life for everyone is thus treated as subjective, including Star Wars beings, which are as sentient as we are.
That is still a given that we still live for something. Some live for his own gains, other live for the safety of his family, etc. Now, let's look at what the Jedi does.
Jedi: Brainwash
The Jedi Order started training these kids young, usually no older than 5 years old. The Jedi council members track these kids down as early as after birth and take these children away from their parents, as early as the age of 3, as long as they are force sensitive. Then, they are to take the Jedi temple as their home and distilled "peaceful" values to those children, training them. It is like your first summer camp, except infintely long and dangerous. Not only that, you are pretty much discouraged to leave the order and get other jobs.[
1]
There is a reason they are picked so young: so they can make the sacrifice that the order wanted them to have easier[
2][
3]. Essentially, it is brainwashing. The Jedi Order is essentially distilling their own interpretations of how one should live their life. Not only that, they were trained to suppress feelings.
There is no emotion, there is peace.There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.There is no passion, there is serenity.There is no chaos, there is harmony.There is no death, there is the Force.[1]
That is what the Jedi believes and tells young kids they recruited all the time. Essentially, you are supposed to be emotionless, have no attachments, and believe whatever the order tells you if you are in the Jedi Order. Wow, the Jedi not only brainwash kids, but brainwash kids to the entire point that they have nearly nothing to live for. Here, you would be discouraged to show your true self in trade of what the Jedi wants you to be, your self-esteem crushed and rebuilt by strangers, leading to a life more numb than a Sith would.
Not only that, you are not supposed to own anything, nor to have a family in the Jedi rules[
1]. That is literally at odds with probably what many people wants or even lives for. So according to the Jedi, the fact you are sensitive to the force will lead to you living like a monk whether if you like it or not. If you don't like it, you have to like it. There.
Sith: Self-Growth
Now let's look at the Sith's approach.
Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.[4]
In general, not only the Sith does not suppress your self-esteem, they encourage it. Your own passion, if you join the Sith, will be what makes you strong. There is nothing stopping you to live your life: If anything, you alter your lifestyle to make yourself stronger, not because someone says it will be bad for you. You become the motivating factor, you push yourself, and not get pulled by a general set of fixed rule.
It is self-explanatory, well, because the Sith does not at all try to force you to change your mind. You try to change your mind not for a collective sense of honor, but for a less arbitrary reason: You will benefit from it. The Sith essentially channels your emotions, the Hate, the Anger, the Vengeance, which may come in one way or another, and use them, instead of avoid them like how the Jedi teaches you. Look at one example at Darth Vader, he has bottled up so much potential emotion that eventually it erupted and he became a Sith Lord[
5]. There is a reason many great Jedi warriors, for example, Dooku, Anakin, Jacen Solo, Revan, flee to the Sith: Because the Sith accepts a wide range of worldview, whereas the Jedi implant their worldview onto people since they were kids, and their scope is very narrow that it is common for people to not being able to meet it due to how hard it is(keep in mind that kids are brought here forcefully, they don't know what's to come).
Besides, the Sith were allowed to hold other positions, namely Darth Sidious as the Chancellor and later the Emperor, and Tyranus(Dooku) as the head of the separatist confederacy. The Sith ought to be able to use any method they can to achieve their goal, and not restricted to any one way.
S2: Lack of Competition
Well, the Sith may brainwash children, but with the Rule of the Two, it ensures a 1-on-1 tutorship from the beginning, which is better than what Initiate Clans do[
6], which the master teaches from the average of these kids in order to achieve efficiency. No, for the Sith, the training course is unique and custom from the beginning, so it is basically sure that the Sith education of young apprentices are more quality and less brainwashing.
Not only that, since there is only 1 Sith master at a given time, there is nothing to be negotiated between what shall be taught to the kid, and the Sith master can distill information 100% of his own ideology, as opposed to perhaps pieced from many others. You learn from a whole personalized ideology of a wise man, and you add onto that, creating a new and more well-thought-out ideology every generation.
So what you end up is a stream of generation of masters and appretices and the knowledge within for the Sith, and a complicated council-chatting and complicated weave of teachings for the Jedi. Which one is clearer? You choose.
After learning as initiates with the sacrifice of individuality in trade of efficiency, Jedis fight in front of masters in order to be picked as padawans and begin their 1-on-1 tutorship(algorithmically and traditionally, where others of the generation are doing the same thing). This is a process called
Involution where not only the kids have to comply with what they are generally accepted that they should be while sacrificing the self and emotion, but the competition may even drag them away from thinking what they actually want. This could be demonstrated by the Chinese College Entrace Exam[
7]. What do the Jedi Initiates get? 1-on-1 custom training, or what a sith gets from the start. Sure, Jedi has more competition, but is competition better? It is useless here.
[
8]Red lightsabers could overpower other lightsabers.
[
9]Despite having only 2 members, each member of the Sith could, on balance, kill many Jedi. The average sith is considered better than the average Jedi in magnitude.
The dark side is founded upon not channeling the Force, but rather, bending it to your will.[
9]
Well said. You control the power as a Sith, and you don't get to do so as a Jedi.
[
9] also mentions that, well, Sith lords don't hold on to the power for very long. Well, what is the point for holding the power for long? Do you want to not be able to defeat Sith lords anymore than simple disarming for 500 years, or do you want to be strong enough to slaughter Jedi like younglings for 50 years? You choose.
Essentially, the lack of competition of the Sith means they can be exposed to 1-on-1 custom tutoring earlier in life, or as older individuals(such as Dooku and Darth Vader), comply full and well what they are getting into(except Sidious is much more rotten than the average Sith, it should be his fault arguably). For Sith apprentices starting young, they are not brainwashed to Jedi-degree and are generally given a looser and broader possibility of what makes them stronger. In fact, if a Sith lord attempts to join the Jedi after puberty, chances are that he will not be able to join because the "normal" age for Jedi admission is 3-5, arguably for better brainwashing. That is how bad it is. Then look at the Sith who can accept apprentices at any age, their teachings are versatile enough that older individuals are simply accepted in without hesitation.
Catch
There is only 1 apprentice per master, where as there are several initiates per master[
2]. Not only that, there are many masters(more than 12 arguably, since Qui-Gon Jinn's absence on the council still makes the seats filled), where as there is only 1 Sith lord who can arguably overpower most if not all Jedi masters. Being considered by the Sith lord himself is equivalent of being handpicked by Yoda as a padawan at a very early stage, and the likelihood of that is very little unless you are Anakin or Rey level talented and stand out. You will have an easier way of going to the top just due to the lack of competition as a Sith and you will on average have a less powerful Jedi Master if you join the Jedi. Look at the "least" powerful Jedi recorded here. For example, the most remarkable thing Coleman Trebor did was try to kill Dooku[
10], but instead he got shot by Jango Fett straight on the ventral side and died. Being trained by the one and only Sith lord is definitely better for you than...this guy, I suppose.
Sources
- Jedi Code | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Jedi Initiate | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Why Jedi Have To Be Trained So Young (swtorstrategies.com)
- Code of the Sith | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Anakin Skywalker | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Jedi Initiate Clan | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- ‘Gaokao’ 2020: The Rights and Wrongs of China’s Dreaded Exam (sixthtone.com)
- Sith lightsaber | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- https://may4bewithyou.com/are-siths-stronger-than-jedis/
- Coleman Trebor | Wookieepedia | Fandom
Your move.
Sadly, I no longer hold this opinion anymore. I can however put up the same topic with me as Pro and you as Con.
Even when one believes in a might is right philosophy, or that greed or self interest is good for the individual, ought be pursued. . .
Seems to me little reason to 'preach such, or encourage said philosophy in others.
One benefits most by others being altruistic, while oneself is selfish,
Secretly breaking one's own word whenever beneficial, while always trusting others to keep theirs.
Course, that's only 'if said philosophy actually 'is good for oneself,
Are many other arguments that being straight and honest, right by others is good for oneself, 'other than in the sense of the group, but for the individual as well.
Truly unhappy some would argue, are those unable to emphasize or do right.
Like Barry HBO or Homelander (The Boys)
I believe it's fair to say that both the Jedi and the Sith have advantages and disadvantages. Too much emotion from the Sith, and too much repression from the Jedi.
"I fact Darth Maul was an abomination tonthe Sith order."
I don't think so. Maul wasn't technically a Sith until Plagueis died. There can be more than 2 dark side users at a time, it is just only 2 of them are Sith.
Maul was never big on strategy anyway.
I fact Darth Maul was an abomination tonthe Sith order.
Palatine was a Sith Apprentice who had his own apprentice... he had to murder his Sith Lord to take the throne but already had violated the order.
Uh oh, I think I might have set the bound too low. 10,000 won't be enough at this rate.
I'm /in
I would have been a gray Jedi for sure.
"I'm gonna be a Jedi, that's all my eyes can see
Victory is mine, yeah surprisingly
I've been laying, waiting for your next mistake
I put in work, and watch my status escalate"
-Gang Starr ft Big L
Fun topic!
Don't know a lot about the Jensaarai or those other factions, but proving that "you" ought to join any of them (or even the Jedaii) fulfills no one's BoP.
This will be very interesting to read. I actually agree that if this is the era of Jedi that is being talked about that the Sith is better, though I would say joining Jensaarai (or even the Teepo/Gray Paladins) would probably be better than either the Jedi or Sith at this point. I am interested in seeing how Pro (whoever that ends up being) will make their case.