Islam does not oppress women

Seems like you never read the debate, let me enlighten you. Respond to the offer and make a debate.

"Islam does not oppress women"
Quran 4:34 might want to talk to you.

Yes, I agree with that. But if we are playing that game then I will play it. US and UK killing 3 million of my brothers and sisters. Hitler killing 6 million of my fellow humanity. Christchurch, right winged Christian, killing of my brothers in a mosque in new Zealand. Indian authorities killing my brothers and sisters in Kashmir. Israel authorities killing my brothers and sisters in Palestine. The LRA in Uganda, killing many of my fellow humanity. The Crusaders declaring war on Muslims and Jews motivated by Christianity and taking over Jerusalem. Threats posted to Muslim households in the UK threatening to kill Muslims and nuke Mecca on April 3rd. I can go all day. I can play this gutter game all day.

your nation of UK actually participated as well and it was Blair's investigator that fabricated the signs of nuclear warheads in Iraq.

Now you are really ignorant. I cannot debate with you on comments. Lets see what the people think. If you really want to debate then please do, make a debate and I will accept. If not then do not waste my time

You can cherry-pick one majority Islamic nation. There's been way more female prime minsters and leaders in western nations. Mother Mary would never be respected as a leader of people like Muhammad or Jesus no matter what her personality, because she's a woman. A woman could never lead the church, just like a woman cannot lead Islam in any similar sense.

Lol, Khadijah, one of the greatest women who led an army.
Maryam, mother of Jesus, highly respected figure
Aisha, highly respected figure
Paradise is at a mothers feet
Indonesia, the largest Muslim country has had 2 female prime ministers
USA has had 0

But you do you

I dont worship anyone rayhan. Im unsure why an infinite power would need or want to be worshipped if he's infinite like it adds anything too him.

Yes, its sexist if the reason is done because they view women as too pathetic to be a threat. It would be a nice thing to do, if it was done for a nice reason and not because they're simply not a threat to Islam through their womanhood, its an insult.

So women do not have to pay money to the country and that is seen as sexist? Wow, what has the world come to.

Women are exempt of all financial liabilities. Is that sexist? Is that oppressive? If you think that is then wow, go back to school.

You don't like Christianity yet you follow Jesus as God and worship him. Wow, another big claim. Christians will call you a heretic.

Also you do realise that Muslims pay tax as well, Zakat. Who are you to decide if Jizya tax is more or less? Zakat is 2.5% of a mans wealth. The man could have 1 billion in his account, this means 2.5 million will go to charity.

This is the thing Ehyeh. I am going to be really honest with you. Realistically you don't care what I say, if you think what I am saying is bad, then that is your choice. Islam is the most highly converted to religion, women and men are converting and Islam is a low converted back religion.

You do you bro, have a good time in life.

I am not going to respond to any more messages, not because I am scared but because I just cannot be asked talking to someone that always assumes bad about Islam.

In a previous debate, you said I made good points, and now you are opposing those points. So have a good day, if you want to debate, then please make the debate, if not then thanks for your time.

What has this got to to with Islam oppressing women? Also the US killed 3 million of my brothers and sisters. So I am going to say it is the US that is to blame, not only for the killing and genocide of 3 million people, but also the killing and genocide of the native Americans, something which the US has not taken blame over. Yet you want to say that my religion supports terrorism, look at your own country first you mong

I'm well aware only non muslim men pay jizya, and that's because Islam is sexist and doesn't seem women as a threat to its existence. It sees women as by nature and legally under the mans authority. They're easier to control, so are the sick and elderly. This is why they don't pay Jizya, not because of any righteous reason. The jizya tax was usually much more than the zakat tax on top of that, being exempt from military service for paying jizya, its simply an excuse to make it look like it wasn't a badge of humiliation. As is self admitted in the Quran, in the quran its seen as a righteous and great honor to die for Islam.

I'm also not a christian, rayhan. Whataboutism doesnt work. I dont like christianity.

"The Muslims do not fight anyone until they have told them about the religion of Allaah and given them the choice between two things, either accepting Islam or, if they refuse Islam and keep their own religions, paying the Jizyah (tax) to the Muslims in return for protection. If they refuse both of these choices, then they are to be fought.
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid"

These are very easy interpretations to be had, rayhan.

What's scary to think is that Hussein's Iraq was one of the most liberal Sharia nations in existence at the time, no that is not a cap/joke.

You know what jizya is? Women don't pay it. Old people do not pay it. Children do not pay it. You know what tax is? Tax is everywhere in every country. Muslims pay zakat which is giving money to charity 2.5% of their wealth each year. And Jizya is tax for non Muslims. And Muslims pay jizya too, if they are called up for the army then Muslims can pay jizya and be exempt from the army. Jizya is fair for everyone.

In Islam we have gender roles. Why can't women talk in church? They have to be silent correct? It says in the Bible. It is called gender roles, maybe look it up. Women have rights and roles. Men have rights and roles. Children too. Nothing not fair about this.

That's just sexist, even if you believe its the natural order of things, its still oppressive. Women don't spread Islam or teach their children too?

This is very concerning for non Muslims "Islam should not ever let non Muslims have any authority over Muslims"

That sounds....dodgy. I've never brought it up in any of our discussions, and i dropped it when you brought it up but the jizya tax is rather discriminatory. It makes people second class citizens. People who paid jizya tax paid much more than people who paid zakat tax.

Yet again, you are falling for the same misconceptions. Muslim men are the providers. They are the people that pay everything. They are the people that pay a woman's dowry. You know what that is?

Muslim men are also the people who carry on the religion of Islam for generations. They take their children to the mosque, they are the people who educate their children on Islam.

"Hence, it is impermissible for a non-Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman. If non-Muslim men were allowed to marry Muslim women, they will have a legal authority over them and God never allows non-Muslims to have authority over Muslims. Unlike food, it is allowed to exchange food with non-Muslims since there are no legal restrictions on it in Islamic law"

I just read it and he says the reason muslim women cannot marry non muslim men is because then the non muslim man would have legal authority over her. His second argument is because a muslim man will respect a non muslim womans faith but a non muslim man wont respect a muslim womans faith and try to change it?? how hypocritical.

Clearly the Quran is patriachial if muslim women cannot marry non muslim men if it means they have legal power over them and only muslim men should have that.

First of all because you both think the same about this issue
Secondly, your answer is at the bottom

Why did you @me? i see no response to my question.

You clearly are misunderstood about how Islam teaches to respect women. Let me enlighten you.

The reason why I brought the US into it, was because I thought this was a terrorism debate, it is not, yet my point still stands.

The point I was trying to make, you have to look at the scripture to judge what Islam actually teaches. I could be a firm believer and a few other people as well could be believers of Buddhism. I could disrespect my wife and hit her, and then blame the religion. This causes a domino effect on the rest of the people including the unbelievers pf Buddhism. They will all believe that hitting women is advocated in Islam. Both you 2 and people that hit wives think the same. That Islam is the reason for it, when that is clearly not the case.

Islam dominated countries so women are mistreated because of Islam? How did you reach that conclusion? The religion itself does not teach to mistreat women, it is the men who have a brain, who have the ability to know right and wrong, and pick wrong. Muslim men honour women for example, Islam teaches that paradise is under your mothers feet. Women are entitled to work, to vote, to be educated, to divorce, for a dowry which I doubt you know what it is, inheritance rights, exempt from all financial liabilities and many more rights. Is this the religion of Islam teaching Muslim men that you should be hitting and disgracing women? Or is it that the men of these times take matters into their own hands and choose their free will over the righteous actions. You do realise that there are domestic abuse cases in the US, the UK, all of Europe, all of Africa etc. It is not mutually exclusive to Muslim countries. Even the Bible teaches women should be silent in church, but no one speaks about that because Christianity has changed to become more integrative for this society. Yet when this society changes to a different one, Christianity will change again, making the religion weak and the people that change the religion want people to accept them so they change the laws. This is what you want?

Then we can move onto the striking. Muslims cannot cause pain to the woman, Muslims cannot leave a mark, so how are they supposed to strike the women till bleeding? This does not make sense. So think about what I said and take it in. Muslims are not allowed to hit women. Why do some do it anyway? Because they have a brain and know between right and wrong, and pick wrong. Nothing new here.

Then we can move onto child marriage. Prohibited. Muslims cannot marry children. The reason why the Prophet married a 9 year old is because Allah commanded him to. Read more about the marriage on this- https://www.islamicfinder.org/knowledge/biography/story-of-aisha-bint-abi-bakr/

Then we move to polygamy. Men are told to marry up to 4 wives and if they cannot provide for all the wives then only marry 1. Women cannot marry more than 1 husband because first of all, DNA testing. I have said this so many times to Ehyeh. DNA testing was not discovered for 1400 years. Why would Muslims change the religion of Islam now that DNA testing is discovered? Changing a religion to meet societal standards is weak. Then another reason is the women will have sex with more than 1 man. Increased chance of STD's. Increased chance of abuse. Increased chance of fights, arguments and stress. Increased chance of depression. The women would get tired, looking after kids with different fathers.

https://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewFatwa.aspx?ID=6167- Answer to the Muslim man marrying Christian or Jew women, and not the other way round.

Why can Muslim men marry non Muslim women but not Muslim women being able to marry non Muslim men?

You should debate rayhan on one of these topics. If you ever find time or find it interesting enough.

> Its the people not the religion
So the religion doesn't have a meaningful existence?

> Plus the US killed 3 million of my fellow Muslims for no reason.
Let's walk through your logic there...
Premise: US = Bad.
Conclusion: Therefore, Islam doesn't oppress women.

Prove the premise until the the heat death of the universe, and it still doesn't relate to the conclusion. This is why whataboutisms should not be used.

Whereas,
In Islam dominated countries, women are frequently mistreated.
Therefore, Islam oppresses women.

Do you see the difference? The second example connects the logic of the premise into the conclusion.
Granted, that premise alone would not be enough to prove the conclusion, it only implies it. Better evidence is seen in our previous conversation about how it commands men to act towards women (and your own agreement that striking them is /occasionally/ harmful), and how it sexually represses them (men are allowed 4 wives for sexual variety, but no matter how successful the woman she is allowed only 1... And the women are getting married off at 6! Which you say it's because they're so mature at that age, but I find that highly dubious).

I thought this was a terrorism debate but My point still stands. Its the people not the religion

Full forfeit

And Jesus called a woman a dog?

Christ warns against being a drunkard, or drinking to the point of intoxication. But Jesus did drink wine on occasions but never shown to be more than a cup of wine or more than a few sips at Passover.

and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.- Galatations 5:21
How many Christians nowadays are drunk? Many, many, and many more.

"A woman may want more than 1 husband, it is her choice. No one is stopping her. But we look at the domestic cases and even with 1 husband, the abuse is much. After the Euros 2020, when England lost to Italy on pens, the domestic issues were through the roof. That is with 1 husband as well. Plus, sure, that woman may feel like she can handle it. She can have 4 husbands. However these 4 husbands will 99% not be Muslim, as they will be going against their own religion. She sins if she has more than 1 husband, it is as simple as that."

Its still exceptionally individual. Creating moral maxims such as this laid upon all people just are not practical, they deny human individuality and our unique natures.

Drinking alcohol is barely a sin in Christianity, i don't know where you get that from. Jesus is painted multiple times as drinking alcohol or offering it to others all throughout the bible. If anything all they advocate is moderation.

You are right. The same thing will happen to Islam. This is a prophecy. This is to show that it is one of the last days on earth. People will sin, there are many other prophecies and miracles which have actually come true. This prophecy will signify the end. Then the day of judgement will arrive. However, if a religion changes overtime to meet the expectations of society, then it is a flawed religion. People are not following the religion itself, just the society who tells the religion to be a certain way. Doesn't that make the religion weak? It surely does. We have a preserved Quran, one that has not changed and will never change. The 1.8 billion of us, a quarter of humanity will not change our religion. In the future however, as sad as it is, it will be.

Islam has to change otherwise people will only follow Islam in name and culture. Just like has been happening to Christianity. Christianity is the most "followed" religion in name, yet most people who say they're Christians half of them don't even believe in God nor go to church, its simply culture. The same thing will happen to Islam. People stopped following Christianity due to increases in education and scientific progress. We now know there is not really much philosophical moral groundwork for laws such as, "kill all gay people" proclaimed in the old testament. Its simply outdated for modern living.

This is where you are going wrong. You are taking the societal expectations of today and forcing it onto religion. My religion is not going to change for you. My religion will not change for society. There are 1.8 Billion Muslims on this earth, they will say the same. Religions do not die if they do not meet the change in the times, if they do change such as that Christianity has changed, then the religion itself, the meaning and the influence is all over the place. No one would take a religion seriously if it changes just to meet standards. This is why Christianity is not taken seriously, even the pope has changed the value of the religion.

Anyway lets address your points.

'its still her choice, a man runs a heightened risk of having domestic troubles with more than 1 wife too. Maybe this is heightened more for a woman but its still a double standard. We have laws in place to protect these women from domestic abuse, as we do men.'

A woman may want more than 1 husband, it is her choice. No one is stopping her. But we look at the domestic cases and even with 1 husband, the abuse is much. After the Euros 2020, when England lost to Italy on pens, the domestic issues were through the roof. That is with 1 husband as well. Plus, sure, that woman may feel like she can handle it. She can have 4 husbands. However these 4 husbands will 99% not be Muslim, as they will be going against their own religion. She sins if she has more than 1 husband, it is as simple as that.

'why does she need to have 2 children from each father? didnt prophet Muhammad take on baron women? Women handle kids better than men do, on average.'

Because the father would normally want 2 or more kids right? And if the father wants 3 kids then its 3. If the father wants 0 kids, then he is just in it for the sex right according to your logic?

not all men are primitive.

Most. I am generalizing as I am talking about the vast majority.

'if all of them work they can pay a babysitter. All of these arguments you made just make it more of an inconvenience for a woman to have more than 1 husband. But its also more of an inconvenience for a man to have more than 1 wife. Even if we grant its more of an issue for women, its still definitely doable, and why shouldn't she if she wanted? all the issues you pose aren't major problems which cannot be overcome in the modern day.

I am not saying that a woman cannot do it. She can, however she is not following Islam. It is the same with Christianity. It teaches to not drink alcohol, yet it is now normalised. The religion is weak because it changed to fit the standards of society. Islam has not changed, will not change. I know you do not agree with many things in Islam however it is a double standard in your religion. Did a certain Prophet in Christianity not keep slaves? Yes this is another point, but you need to stop dismissing your own religion.

Now, I do not find this disgusting. I find this empowering for women. They have rights, they are treated with respect. Why do you want to change my religion to fit your standards of how society should be? If you were born 50 years ago, you would not say these things.

Please do not infuse double standards in this conversation as I am not changing my religion to fit a few Christians narratives of how it should be.

Good day

Just admit there is no reason, you just find it disgusting.

Religions have to change to the times, or they simply die. Once they lose their practical value for self development, why keep it around?
"-Men can be more abusive to a vulnerable wife when there is 4 of them and 1 of her"

its still her choice, a man runs a heightened risk of having domestic troubles with more than 1 wife too. Maybe this is heightened more for a woman but its still a double standard. We have laws in place to protect these women from domestic abuse, as we do men.

-Women are more emotional in biology so they would not cope with 8 children (2 from each father) plus sex every week and 8 children to give birth to, could be more

why does she need to have 2 children from each father? didnt prophet Muhammad take on baron women? Women handle kids better than men do, on average.

"The men are naturally more stronger, more dominant so there will be fights which would pressure the woman."

not all men are primitive.

"-Women need to work too to look after her children, if you ask why can't the fathers do it, who will look after the kids?"

if all of them work they can pay a babysitter. All of these arguments you made just make it more of an inconvenience for a woman to have more than 1 husband. But its also more of an inconvenience for a man to have more than 1 wife. Even if we grant its more of an issue for women, its still definitely doable, and why shouldn't she if she wanted? all the issues you pose aren't major problems which cannot be overcome in the modern day.

I do refute your arguments.

Genetic testing. Why do we have to change a religion and the rules of a religion to make it fit into modern society? There are rules for a reason. I will give more reasons to why women cannot have more than 1 husband. And I am going to copy it from my other comment. Not just genetic testing but also

-Men can be more abusive to a vulnerable wife when there is 4 of them and 1 of her
-Women are more emotional in biology so they would not cope with 8 children (2 from each father) plus sex every week and 8 children to give birth to, could be more
-Women need to work too to look after her children, if you ask why can't the fathers do it, who will look after the kids?
-The men are naturally more stronger, more dominant so there will be fights which would pressure the woman.

you never actually refute my arguments. You just start talking about something else and saying "google more" I'm very well aware of Aisha's life and the mental gymnastics people do to try and make her appear older than 9 when Muhammad slept with her. I've said it before and ill say it again. If women cant have more than 1 husband so we know who the father is, that doesn't apply to the modern day. We have genetic testing........I've brought this up too you and you just ignore it you have no argument against it. You just essentially say "its different" without explaining why. When you cannot answer these questions head on but pretend they don't exist, its obvious why people are thinking you're a bit inflexible in your thinking.

No, women are not allowed, many reasons, all explained in this debate, first argument. I will reiterate it for you

-For 1400 years, there has been no DNA testing, how would you know who the father is?
-Men can be more abusive to a vulnerable wife when there is 4 of them and 1 of her
-Women are more emotional in biology so they would not cope with 8 children (2 from each father) plus sex every week and 8 children to give birth to, could be more
-Women need to work too to look after her children, if you ask why can't the fathers do it, who will look after the kids?
-The men are naturally more stronger, more dominant so there will be fights which would pressure the woman.

Many reasons,

Secondly, how many women are Prophets. Interesting question.

Why does a woman need to be a Prophet to show equality? A Prophet is one that receives a message from God and spreads it. God picks the Prophets. Mary is a mother to a Prophet, 13 women are wives to a very important prophet. Also if a woman wants to spread Islam and share the message, she would have gotten ridiculed back in those times. Being a Prophet was a dangerous job. The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) endured so much abuse. He had so much abuse it is hard to imagine, yet he still carried on. A woman being more emotional, more chance of abuse, it would simply not work out. Plus it is God's choice. Was there any Prophets that were women in the Bible or the Torah? Nope.

Are women in Islam each allowed to marry 4 husbands at the same time?

Further, how many women are prophets?

The Prophet was an exception. As I already stated, God told the Prophet to marry 12/13 of these wives. Men now, cannot marry more than 4. As it states marry women of your choice, 2, 3 or 4, however if you cannot cope then only marry 1.

The reason why the Prophet (PBUH) married more than 4 wives was because nearly all were widows. The Prophet also married a woman who was 20 years older than him.

Are women in Islam allowed 13 husbands? If not, you’re admitting their treatment is anything but equal.

She was not groomed, the Prophet had 13 wives. Treated each one equal. Never forced anything upon anyone. He was not in the marriage for sex. God commanded for him to marry 12/13 wives as nearly all of them were widows as their husbands fought wars and got killed. Then the Prophet married all of them, not for sex or being a pedo, but to look after them and give them a way better life than before. Some even say she was 19 years old, not 9. We do not know exactly the age, people ponder. She was accused of adultery and the punishment for that is death. However she denied these accusations and the Prophet believed her and he backed her. So why would he do this if he was a pedo? You may say for sex, however he was not in it for the sex. It is so much more than that. And he would have killed her if he was in it for the sex because he still had 12 wives right?

Really, search up the marriage and his intentions, you would know a lot better

I don't care what she thought of her marriage nor Muhammad. I'm not saying he couldn't be a good husband, she was a victim of her times. So its understandable she may of even liked her marriage. That still doesn't mean she could consent. She was still by definition, groomed. That's all i want to talk about, i don't care if she LOVED her marriage. That still doesn't mean she could consent or wasn't groomed.

It is clear that you have no evidence for your claims, that her father wanted political power etc. I suggest you read an autobiography on her life, I suggest you watch videos on her marriage and her life. You can then see if the Prophet was a paedophile or not, shame on you for even thinking that. He provided for her, he never shouted at her, he never hit her, he never abused her, he never raped her, he took care of her, he never used her for power nor for sex. This is a misconception to say the least. Watch a few unbiased videos on the marriage.

Her father wanted his daughter to marry him for his own political power and influence.

You think really think a 6 year old can consent to marry a 40 year old man? i don't think any 6 year old is smart enough to consent to marriage. Not even a 200 IQ 6 year old. What was she, an alien with a galaxy brain? if you had a 6 year old daughter and she said she wants to marry some old guy she seen on TV would you take it serious? no, you would laugh.

Physical tests, mental tests etc. She was very mature for her age, she gave consent to marriage, she was a known for her intellectual capacity. And girls did menstruate then as well at age 9, which is why she got married.

What "tests" do they do in Islam? In Islam they don't check mental maturity, simply if they can procreate or not. As far as im aware. Even by ancient standards prophet Muhammad would of been considered a pedophile. Girls menstruate earlier than ever these days, during those times the average age was 15. Now its around 12 for most girls (we think its mostly to do with diet). So Aisha getting it at 9 is exceptionally unusual. Any child psychologist or professional who studies with SCIENCE these vectors, would say this stuff is wrong and is grooming. I don't really care if it was normal during those days, that simply displays that the Quran nor its teachings are necessarily infallible or timeless.