We ought to live by the maxim that the ends justify the means.
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After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
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- 4
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- Open
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
This is open season, free for all, equal opportunity.
Come on with it.
- We must be aware that pro holds the entire burden of proof in this debate, and the resolution as a typical baseline, defaults to the position of con if the affirmative debater fails to sufficiently uphold such burden and thus, the resolution.
- We also must observe that the resolution holds no specification that limits the scope of our deliberation, or outlines specifications within the topic of discussion. In light of such, pro must argue that in the examination of any situation pertaining to the individual, and society at large, we ought to live by the maxim "the ends justify the means."
- Pro has also not properly defined what "the ends justify the means," entails.
- Pro is proposing that we ought to live according to this maxim proposed by Niccolo Machiavelli. In order to argue the notion, we require from pro first, a moral framework that establishes a coherent range of moral importance as well as an argument indicating the validity and soundness of said moral framework.
- Pro has proposed neither, and conclusively, his entire case of round one can be effectively discarded.
We ought to and already do live in this manner.
- First, just because we already do something, does that mean we ought to do so? Many people commit murder and rape, but that does not entail we ought to do these things. Mall has not made an argument for what we ought to do. We can subsequently observe this with examples:
a. A person running a red light to avoid a rear collision.b. A person undergoing bodily amputation to save their life.
- These are things people can do certainly, but what makes it true that we ought to act in such a manner? Maybe it is the case that people do these things to achieve ends that are subjectively desirable to them, but just because something is the case, why does that mean that it ought to be that way? This is, of course, the is-ought gap in manifestation.
- The maxim of our debate is undoubtedly an application of consequentialism.
- Either acceptable ends are objective, individual, or societal.
- Mall has not proven the former, and his examples seem to suggest the mode of individual relativism as opposed to cultural or societal relativism. This stipulates the case where the individual can supersede the regulations of society if their conception of desirable ends meaningfully differs, take the example of a woman murdering her husband because the end of wishing her husband dead justifies the means of achieving such. In essence, Mall argues that people ought to act in ways that deter from civility and order or social interactions and entails a state in which we lack the discretion to act coordinatively.
- Pro is making an ought statement, and must functionally bridge the is-ought gap divide.
- Pro is making a moral claim and must posit a framework of moral acceptability.
- Lastly, an absence of 1 and 2 default us to cultural relativism. Pro in this case must show how the actualization of individual conceptions of desirable ends will create a society that is desirable to inhabit, and as I have shown, this is far from the case.
The is-ought problem, as articulated by the Scottish philosopher and historian David Hume, arises when one makes claims about what ought to be that are based solely on statements about what is. Hume found that there seems to be a significant difference between positive statements (about what is) and prescriptive or normative statements (about what ought to be) and that it is not obvious how one can coherently move from descriptive statements to prescriptive ones. Hume's law or Hume's guillotine
- Pro continues to state things people can do, or things people do, however, he does not attempt to bridge the is-ought gap and explain why we ought to act in such ways as the resolution stipulates. His incoherent rambling should be considered at best and discarded subsequently.
We should live and do live by doing what is to be done to get the results necessary.
- What makes it true that we ought to live by the maxim the end justifies the means? No argument was made for this, and I certainly hope pro does not make an argument for such in order to make an easy voter decision.
- None provided, extend. Pro denies he must do this but holding the full burden of proof, he is making an ought claim, however, philosopher David Hume has shown us that "you cannot deduce moral conclusions, featuring moral words such as ‘ought’, from non-moral premises, that is premises from which the moral words are absent."
- I suspect I will win on this point alone, so I will continue to extend it upon being dropped by the instigator.
- Dropped, Extend.
- Either acceptable ends are objective, individual, or societal.
- Pro has not affirmed anyone in specific but has made notions towards the individual, suggesting that people ought to subvert any form of order society has for their own personal conceptions of subjective value and pleasure, thus, the example of the woman murdering her husband because the end of wishing her husband dead justifies the means of achieving such within her values. Pro must hold a sufficient counter for ethical subjectivism in his claim that we ought to live by the ends justify the means, and without an ethical framework which he denies he must provide, his position entails the degradation of society.
- Pro holds the burden of proof for the claim and proposition "we ought to live by the maxim that the ends justify the means." Pro continues to state things people do, but this is not an argument that people ought to do these things. If pro fails to bridge over Hume's guillotine this point continues to be extended. The voting decisions seem simple from here.
- None provided, extend (see z.1 from round two as well as z from round one)
- Dropped. Extend (see I. from rounds 1 & 2).
- Dropped/Extend.
- Extend (see z.1 from round two as well as z from round one)
- Dropped. Extend (see I. from rounds 1 & 2).
- Pro cannot make a moral ought claim without bridging the is-ought divide, so a voting decision for this debate must necessarily go towards con. Pro has not made a valid argument that upholds the resolution and has dropped all of con's arguments.
z. Is-ought problem
Dropped/Extend.
z.1 Moral framework
Extend (see z.1 from round two as well as z from round one)
I. Practicality/Consequentialism
Dropped. Extend (see I. from rounds 1 & 2).
Conclusion
Pro cannot make a moral ought claim without bridging the is-ought divide, so a voting decision for this debate must necessarily go towards con. Pro has not made a valid argument that upholds the resolution and has dropped all of con's arguments.
Are either of you willing to vote on this debate and this duplication of it?
(https://www.debateart.com/debates/3615-we-ought-to-live-by-the-maxim-that-the-ends-justify-the-means)
I am running out of time unfortunately.
Do you think you could vote on this debate, as well as its duplicate (https://www.debateart.com/debates/3615-we-ought-to-live-by-the-maxim-that-the-ends-justify-the-means) if you would please? I am just running out of time, and I can assure you the decisions are very simple.
A different statement must pose as the resolution to create the debate that Pro was hoping for. @Mall states, "We ought to live by the maxim that the ends justify the means." Having a statement such as this rather than a question like "should the ends justify the means?" results in them having the burden of proof. Throughout the debate, Pro did not define any aspects of the motion, nor did they make any sound arguments at all. I am not yet privileged with a vote, but my "vote" goes to @Novice_II almost by default.
Although you're technically correct. Your argument feels like a strawman. You refuse to partake in showing him there's more effective moral frameworks (depending on what you want to accomplish). It feels more like you just refused to play the game and tipped the board.